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Lord Varys

[SPOILERS] Jaehaerys and Alysanne

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9 hours ago, DMC said:

I don't think Alysanne, nor Jaehaerys, would have much of a problem with Viserra wedding Baelon.  Problem was Baelon clearly wasn't interested in remarrying at all, and it seems as if his parents accepted that.  In hindsight, seems the obvious solution is to have Viserra wed Rodrik and give Daella more time.

No, it is quite obvious that Alysanne does not want Viserra to marry Baelon. She is wroth with Viserra for the way she (supposedly) behaves around Baelon even before she sneaks into his bedchamber - and the context there seems to be, from a more neutral angle, in equal part desperation to prevent the Manderly madness as well as (possibly) genuine interest in/love for Baelon. Viserra even freely shared her desire for Baelon with her Butterwell friend, indicating this was not necessarily some evil scheme.

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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She is wroth with Viserra for the way she (supposedly) behaves around Baelon even before she sneaks into his bedchamber

I read Alysanne's concern here as much more pertaining to Viserra's overall behavior than anything specifically about Baelon.  At that point it was apparent Baelon was not interested.  Also, I reject the premise that Alysanne was "jealous" of Viserra out of hand.  Just a concerned parent.

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13 minutes ago, DMC said:

I read Alysanne's concern here as much more pertaining to Viserra's overall behavior than anything specifically about Baelon.  At that point it was apparent Baelon was not interested.  Also, I reject the premise that Alysanne was "jealous" of Viserra out of hand.  Just a concerned parent.

A concerned parent doesn't try to marry her daughter to a man that could be her great-grandfather.

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9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

A concerned parent doesn't try to marry her daughter to a man that could be her great-grandfather.

How old Theomore Manderly could be at that point? He already had adult children when we first met him.

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11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

A concerned parent doesn't try to marry her daughter to a man that could be her great-grandfather.

Um, marrying them off is easily the most common parental remedy in Westeros when confronting troublesome daughters.

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16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I find the Daella thing much worse, actually, considering her marriage basically killed her, and that this could have been foreseen. There was no dynastic reason for Daella to marry, especially not this early.

Daella was 16 when she married Rodrik and 18 when she died. Her mother Alysanne and sister Alyssa both married at younger age. Not defending marrying Daella of to Arryn, just wanted to point it out.

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16 minutes ago, DMC said:

Um, marrying them off is easily the most common parental remedy in Westeros when confronting troublesome daughters.

We know this kind of thing is usually used and seen as an insult (Arianne's interpretation of the marriage choices her father put before her) or a punishment. You were talking about a concerned parent, no? A concerned parent would have found a better way to get her daughter away from her brother. A man her own age would have been a start.

21 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

How old Theomore Manderly could be at that point? He already had adult children when we first met him.

As I said - he could be thrice or four times the age of fifteen year old Viserra. More likely four times - which would make him sixty. Possibly even older still. He would have been at least in his thirties in 58 AC.

12 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Daella was 16 when she married Rodrik and 18 when she died. Her mother Alysanne and sister Alyssa both married at younger age. Not defending marrying Daella of to Arryn, just wanted to point it out.

I know that, and I never argued against the marriage ages of the girls as such - although one could do that as well, pointing out that this, too, is a way to get young women killed by pregnancies. It was the specific case of Daella we are talking about here. She is described as very small and not exactly strong.

Even if one had to insist that every daughter was to marry (no marriage is later made for Gael, no?) then in Daella's case one should have at least waited until the girl was physically full-grown, considering that could have made her somewhat stronger.

But a girl like Daella was ill-prepared to ever properly save as the lady of a castle. Lord Arryn took care of her, yes, but he also killed her. Jaehaerys and Alysanne and their successors could have just as well taken care of her at the Red Keep, like they did with Gael - and if she wanted to marry in her twenties or so, this could have been easily arranged, with them living at KL afterwards.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We know this kind of thing is usually used and seen as an insult (Arianne's interpretation of the marriage choices her father put before her) or a punishment. You were talking about a concerned parent, no? A concerned parent would have found a better way to get her daughter away from her brother. A man her own age would have been a start.

Why is a man her own age assumed to be better for Viserra?  While Viserra (or any girl) would obviously prefer it, Alysanne found her someone she could trust and, if he is as old as you speculate, should probably die pretty soon, and Viserra may end up having many happy years as the lady of White Harbor.  I don't recall any other younger candidates that would have been better/available - were there?  If not, I don't see any reason to assume Alysanne's choice in husband was in any way ill-intended.

I don't blame Viserra for wanting to sneak out and get drunk before having to marry Manderly.  But I also don't blame Alysanne for making the match - remember Viserra herself was resigned to it.  Nine times out of ten Viserra would have been hungover as she begins her journey the next day and that would've been that.

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I have to say, of everything we see regarding Jaehaerys, his insistence that Daella could not simply be a spinster seems hard to swallow. Why couldn't she simply remain a maiden? Spinsters are not unknown, even within the span of F&B -- Lady Patrice Hightower, for example. 

He certainly didn't see her marriage as any sort of necessary political maneuver -- he was prepared to marry her to just about anyone who she took a liking to and whom he trusted to treat her well. It seemed very strange.

Edited by Ran

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3 minutes ago, DMC said:

Why is a man her own age assumed to be better for Viserra?  While Viserra (or any girl) would obviously prefer it, Alysanne found her someone she could trust and, if he is as old as you speculate, should probably die pretty soon, and Viserra may end up having many happy years as the lady of White Harbor.  I don't recall any other younger candidates that would have been better/available - were there?  If not, I don't see any reason to assume Alysanne's choice in husband was in any way ill-intended.

I don't think being widow of minor lord who already had multiple adult children with other wives is very prestigious postion, even considering improvement of widow's statut by Alysanne's laws.

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1 minute ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I don't think being widow of minor lord who already had multiple adult children with other wives is very prestigious postion, even considering improvement of widow's statut by Alysanne's laws.

Sure but she could basically do what she wanted at that point and have her independence.  Not like the new Lord Manderly is going to kick her out unless she, ya know, deserves it.

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Just now, DMC said:

Sure but she could basically do what she wanted at that point and have her independence.  Not like the new Lord Manderly is going to kick her out unless she, ya know, deserves it.

Well Franklyn Farman kicked out Rhaena and Androw after becoming new lord for no reason at all.

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2 minutes ago, DMC said:

I wouldn't say no reason at all in that case.

Well, they annoyed him and he wanted to marry his sister off to some lordling.

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7 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Well, they annoyed him and he wanted to marry his sister off to some lordling.

I thought the implication was clear Rhaena was sleeping with his sister.  While I wouldn't really "fault" Rhaena for that (although Androw's betrayal was of her own making), it's certainly a reason that I'd think most Westerosi lords would take issue with.  Regardless, it does not appear to be relevant to Viserra's circumstances.

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31 minutes ago, Ran said:

I have to say, of everything we see regarding Jaehaerys, his insistence that Daella could not simply be a spinster seems hard to swallow. Why couldn't she simply remain a maiden? Spinsters are not unknown, even within the span of F&B -- Lady Patrice Hightower, for example. 

He certainly didn't see her marriage as any sort of necessary political maneuver -- he was prepared to marry her to just about anyone who she took a liking to and whom he trusted to treat her well. It seemed very strange.

Exactly. The man really worked himself into a frenzy there. He and Alysanne were apparently so trapped in their 'marriage narrative' that they couldn't think outside the box. And that's why Alysanne is so wroth with Jaehaerys afterwards because she herself didn't offer enough (or any) resistance to the marriage idea as such. They both killed her, but Jaehaerys is the one to be blamed for it the most. Although one cannot absolve Lord Rodrik for the thing as well. If he cared so much about 'his precious princess' he should have either waited some time more, or he should have never consummated that marriage. He had enough heirs already.

35 minutes ago, DMC said:

Why is a man her own age assumed to be better for Viserra?  While Viserra (or any girl) would obviously prefer it, Alysanne found her someone she could trust and, if he is as old as you speculate, should probably die pretty soon, and Viserra may end up having many happy years as the lady of White Harbor.  I don't recall any other younger candidates that would have been better/available - were there?  If not, I don't see any reason to assume Alysanne's choice in husband was in any way ill-intended.

Well, the fact that Alysanne wanted her daughter away from court speaks for itself. This was not a marriage done to benefit Viserra. It was one to get her out of sight, basically, away from Baelon.

Alysanne trusting Lord Theomore has nothing to do with Viserra trusting or wanting this man. Alysanne was not looking for a husband her daughter might like.

It is also a very silly decision in light of the fact that Lord Theomore would not live very long, most likely, and then Viserra would be free to wed another man - and considering her looks she should have gotten any man she wanted to, especially one such she could forge into a weapon against her mother.

How would such a marriage resolve anything?

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3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Although one cannot absolve Lord Rodrik for the thing as well. If he cared so much about 'his precious princess' he should have either waited some time more, or he should have never consummated that marriage. He had enough heirs already.

I would not blame Rodrik for just having sex with her. After all, it is not like he knew pregnancy would kill her or that he forced her to have sex with him. I know people in Middle Ages had a bit different understanding of sex, but I don't think that even they considered it serves only for procreation.

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22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, the fact that Alysanne wanted her daughter away from court speaks for itself. This was not a marriage done to benefit Viserra.

Again, I don't have any reason to believe Alysanne didn't think this was what was best for Viserra.  Is it?  Well, we could argue about that, but - ceteris paribus - I don't think it's any worse than marrying her off to someone younger.  I'm honestly asking (I don't recall and stupidly gave my book to my brother) - is there anyone else actually identified that would make a better match?  As I suggested earlier, was she old enough to marry Rodrik instead of Daella? 

Anyway, seems clear to me Alysanne believed the best thing for Viserra was to get married.  If you wanna question if that was the best decision, I'm not gonna argue.  There are good reasons (as you've listed) to think Jaehaerys bears at least some responsibility for the fates of Daella and Saera.  But in the Alysanne/Viserra case I just don't see it.

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It was one to get her out of sight, basically, away from Baelon.

Considering Baelon's demonstrable lack of interest, I don't see why this would be a concern.

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50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is also a very silly decision in light of the fact that Lord Theomore would not live very long, most likely, and then Viserra would be free to wed another man - and considering her looks she should have gotten any man she wanted to, especially one such she could forge into a weapon against her mother.

How would such a marriage resolve anything?

Sorry for the double post, forgot to respond to this.  I think the hope is that the marriage will help mature her and temper her behavior, and then she would make a wiser decision on her second marriage than she would have at that time.  Is that a fool's hope?  Probably, but parents are often fools when it comes to their children.  I don't think Viserra potentially becoming an enemy was any part of Alysanne's thought process.

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14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

From a dynastic and political point of view such a union would not live long enough. Viserra might not even get impregnated by such an old man - and if she did any children from that union would have no effect on the policies in White Harbor considering that the new Lord Manderly would either be a son or a grandson from Lord Theomore's first wife. So what's the point of throwing a daughter at a man if the children from that union aren't really worth all that much. They wouldn't be Targaryen-Manderlys actually influencing things in the North. 

I've been reading this thread for a couple of days now and haven't had anything to add. I'm actually in the Dance of the Dragons section. When Jacaerys approaches Lord Manderly, he brings up a (supposed) promise that was made to him by the Old King:

Quote

“Mine own forebears were despoiled of their birthright when our enemies drove us into exile on these cold northern shores. When the Old King visited us so long ago, he spoke of the wrong that had been done to us and promised to make redress. In pledge of that, His Grace offered the hand of his daughter Princess Viserra to my great-grandsire, that our two houses might be made as one, but the girl died and the promise was forgotten.”

George R. R. Martin. Fire & Blood (A Song of Ice and Fire) (Kindle Locations 6438-6441). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

 

Just thought that was interesting. Why on earth would a King make that promise and seal it with a marriage? Or, was the marriage the redress spoken of? The latter doesn't make much sense because House Manderly was already in White Harbor before Aegon the Conquerer took flight.

Anyone have any thoughts?

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