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Lord Varys

[SPOILERS] Jaehaerys and Alysanne

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1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I would not blame Rodrik for just having sex with her. After all, it is not like he knew pregnancy would kill her or that he forced her to have sex with him. I know people in Middle Ages had a bit different understanding of sex, but I don't think that even they considered it serves only for procreation.

The reason why we talk about this is that Daella was small and delicate and pregnancies are high risks for such women, especially in this environment. Considering how many women die in childbirth any person with a brain could have thought that Daella's chances to live through a pregnancy were about 50:50 or even worse.

You do know that a pregnancy is a rather high risk for the health and well-being of a woman, right? In our world and especially in a world with as shitty a medicine as Westeros, right?

41 minutes ago, DMC said:

Again, I don't have any reason to believe Alysanne didn't think this was what was best for Viserra.  Is it? 

And where it is said that Alysanne thought she acted in her daughter's 'best interest'? How does this even matter or make sense if Viserra makes it clear she did not want to marry this man?

Do you think parents should choose spouses for their children? Do you think I should choose a spouse for you - I assure you, I'd have only 'your best interest' at heart... ;-)?

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If the princess was intent on marrying her brother, the queen was equally determined to prevent it. Her answer was Lord Manderly and White Harbor. “Theomore is a good man,” Alysanne told her daughter, “a wise man, with a kind heart and a good head on his shoulders. His people love him.”
The princess was not persuaded. “If you like him so much, Mother, you should marry him,” she said, before running to her father to complain. Jaehaerys offered her no solace. “It is a good match,” he told her, before explaining the importance of drawing the North closer to the Iron Throne. Marriages were the queen’s domain in any case, he said; he never interfered in such matters.

There is no hint there for an alternative match, in fact, Theomore is the only 'choice' given to Viserra, and it is made very clear that he is chosen so that Viserra does not convince Baelon to marry her.

There is also no hint as such that Baelon rejected once and for all. He didn't react to her advances in public and he did not take advantage on her while she was very drunk in his bedchamber, but this doesn't mean he wouldn't have married her if she had properly asked him.

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Well, we could argue about that, but - ceteris paribus - I don't think it's any worse than marrying her off to someone younger. 

Apparently I have to arrange a marriage for you, too ;-). There is a pretty huge gap between some old guy/crone you marry you detest, and a woman/man of your own age you can, perhaps, warm to or even like already. Much easier to find a modus vivendi with the latter, too, than with some old person who basically make you look like a joke. And a gorgeous woman like Viserra aside a fat old guy like Manderly would be seen as a joke.

Alysanne shows how marriages can be arranged to the benefit of all people involved. At first Daenerys and Aemon are supposed to marry - they like each other very much. Then Alyssa gets Baelon and not Aemon because they are close since childhood, too. Jocelyn is attracted to Aemon and they are allowed to spend time together and then a natural romance develops. Vaegon and Daella are encouraged to bond, but as soon as Vaegon makes it clear he would not marry this sister of his the marriage is at an end. Nobody forces them to wed, although they could have treated them like they later treat Daella and Viserra.

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Anyway, seems clear to me Alysanne believed the best thing for Viserra was to get married.  If you wanna question if that was the best decision, I'm not gonna argue.  There are good reasons (as you've listed) to think Jaehaerys bears at least some responsibility for the fates of Daella and Saera.  But in the Alysanne/Viserra case I just don't see it.

You would have to actually point out that Alysanne thought she had the best interest of her daughter at heart here. That's not mentioned. What we know is that she wanted to prevent Viserra from marrying Baelon.

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No squire was ever going to win Viserra, Queen Alysanne knew; not her heart, and certainly not her maidenhead. She was far too sly a child to go down the same path as her sister Saera. “She has no interest in kissing games, nor boys,” the queen told Jaehaerys. “She plays with them as she used to play with her puppies, but she would no more lie with one than with a dog. She aims much higher, our Viserra. I have seen the way she preens and prances around Baelon. That is the husband she desires, and not for love of him. She wants to be the queen.”

I already laid out above why I think Alysanne's take on Viserra's character may have been wrong. What little we learn about Viserra implies she was more down to earth than Saera.

14 minutes ago, Traverys said:

I've been reading this thread for a couple of days now and haven't had anything to add. I'm actually in the Dance of the Dragons section. When Jacaerys approaches Lord Manderly, he brings up a (supposed) promise that was made to him by the Old King.

I think the promise as such is somewhat blown up - this Lord Manderly wasn't exactly around when the Viserra thing was made, presumably at least.

As for the wrong and the redress the Manderlys seemed to want - that seems kind of obvious. The Manderlys want their lands and castles at the Mander back. The Targaryens could make that happen.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You do know that a pregnancy is a rather high risk for the health and well-being of a woman, right? In our world and especially in a world with as shitty a medicine as Westeros, right?

Chill out with the sarcasm.

According to this site I found by google search: http://birthnerd.blogspot.com/2011/07/pre-modern-death-in-childbirth.html there were about 25 deaths per 1000 live births from the 16th to 18th centuries so it's not as tragic as you may think. 

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

;-)

I am sorry to ask you, but why do you use winky face so much? It's a bit weird.

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8 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Chill out with the sarcasm.

According to this site I found by google search: http://birthnerd.blogspot.com/2011/07/pre-modern-death-in-childbirth.html there were about 25 deaths per 1000 live births from the 16th to 18th centuries so it's not as tragic as you may think. 

I said health risks, not deaths in childbirth. Alysanne didn't die in childbirth but it is basically spelled out that Jaehaerys fucked her to death, too. Thirteen pregnancies take a toll and your body and (greatly) contributed to Alysanne's (pretty early) death.

8 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I am sorry to ask you, but why do you use winky face so much? It's a bit weird.

I don't like smilies. I use that to mark sarcasm/irony/jokes.

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6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And where it is said that Alysanne thought she acted in her daughter's 'best interest'? How does this even matter or make sense if Viserra makes it clear she did not want to marry this man?

Do you think parents should choose spouses for their children? Do you think I should choose a spouse for you - I assure you, I'd have only 'your best interest' at heart... ;-)?

My point is that was a common solution for Westerosi nobility when a child, especially a female child, is acting out.  Hell, that still is a common notion.  Whenever I get to see my favorite uncle we get drunk for a couple days then as we're recovering he'll inevitably ask "when are you gonna get married and start having kids?  I think it'll settle you down."  You're right (I assume) that there's no overt evidence that Alysanne had Viserra's best interests at heart, but outside of countervailing evidence I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt.  If we're gonna start castigating every character that uses this solution, or marries their children to spouses they object to, it's gonna be a very long list.

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no hint there for an alternative match, in fact, Theomore is the only 'choice' given to Viserra, and it is made very clear that he is chosen so that Viserra does not convince Baelon to marry her.

It's very clear to you.  I've yet to see anything from the text that makes that clear at all.

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is also no hint as such that Baelon rejected once and for all. He didn't react to her advances in public and he did not take advantage on her while she was very drunk in his bedchamber, but this doesn't mean he wouldn't have married her if she had properly asked him.

The fact that we know about her drunken offer is a hint that Baelon had no interest.  If he did he wouldn't embarrass by letting others know what she did.

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Apparently I have to arrange a marriage for you, too ;-). There is a pretty huge gap between some old guy/crone you marry you detest, and a woman/man of your own age you can, perhaps, warm to or even like already.

I assume Alysanne thought Theomore would be a more sobering match than anybody Viserra would have chosen (if she even would have preferred anybody else other than Baelon).

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And a gorgeous woman like Viserra aside a fat old guy like Manderly would be seen as a joke.

Well, it'd be pretty superficial to see it as a joke, so who cares?

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56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

As for the wrong and the redress the Manderlys seemed to want - that seems kind of obvious. The Manderlys want their lands and castles at the Mander back. The Targaryens could make that happen

What is equally obvious is the problems that would cause. If one lord gets redress from a wrong done to them "over a thousand years ago," then that opens a floodgate for all claimants to past wrongs... which would probably be every House at some time or another. Not to mention they'd likely have to take Dunstonbury away from another (unnamed) house in order offer redress (if that is what was meant); House Peake (Manderly rivals of old) no longer holds it.

It's a quick way to become a Tyrant if you suddenly try to revoke lands and titles from lords for thousand-year-old grievances.

It just stood out to me as odd. Perhaps it's a boldfaced lie Rhaenyra's heir couldn't see through. But it's explanation as to why they would marry a daughter to an old Manderly with plenty of trueborn children already.

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6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

A concerned parent doesn't try to marry her daughter to a man that could be her great-grandfather.

they wanted the thrown to go to Rhaena Baratheon. Viserra would put that all in flames.

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5 hours ago, DMC said:

My point is that was a common solution for Westerosi nobility when a child, especially a female child, is acting out.  Hell, that still is a common notion.  Whenever I get to see my favorite uncle we get drunk for a couple days then as we're recovering he'll inevitably ask "when are you gonna get married and start having kids?  I think it'll settle you down."  You're right (I assume) that there's no overt evidence that Alysanne had Viserra's best interests at heart, but outside of countervailing evidence I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt.  If we're gonna start castigating every character that uses this solution, or marries their children to spouses they object to, it's gonna be a very long list.

If Alysanne had had truly Viserra's interest at heart - or rather: if the author wanted to send that message - then something along those lines should have been mentioned. Instead we get her betrothal to an old guy whom she does not want to marry, and the reasoning she is given for that is not exactly that the guy is going to take care of her, make her happy, settle her down, give her life meaning, etc. but just the stuff I already quoted above.

5 hours ago, DMC said:

It's very clear to you.  I've yet to see anything from the text that makes that clear at all.

You cannot pull alternative explanations out of thin air. The only issue Alysanne has with Viserra is her interest in Baelon and the ambition she sees behind her desire to marry him. That's what the text gives us. What you speculate here about is not actually drawn from the text.

5 hours ago, DMC said:

The fact that we know about her drunken offer is a hint that Baelon had no interest.  If he did he wouldn't embarrass by letting others know what she did.

Well, we are told (and this whole episode is just court gossip, there is no source confirmation for this and we don't really know whether the entire thing *actually* happened) that Viserra, a teenager, needed two maids and one Kingsguard to steady her on her way from Baelon's bedchamber back to her own. This implies that the girl got herself really drunk and may not actually have been in the state of mind nor mentally capable to propose to Baelon, or explain to him why she wanted to marry him.

5 hours ago, DMC said:

I assume Alysanne thought Theomore would be a more sobering match than anybody Viserra would have chosen (if she even would have preferred anybody else other than Baelon).

Nobody said anything about Viserra making her own choice. Their parents certainly could have pushed her the way they pushed all their other children into their incestuous and non-incestuous marriages, but as a laid out you can arrange marriages in a way that can make them work - or in a way that make them suck.

And this one had 'failure' written all over it - a worse marriage is likely only Rhaenyra-Laenor or, perhaps, Daemon-Rhea.

5 hours ago, DMC said:

Well, it'd be pretty superficial to see it as a joke, so who cares?

I meant that Lord Manderly's Mermen Court and his family and the entire North would see this as a joke. Just as Tyrek's marriage to Ermesande Hayford is a joke, just as any boy/man finding himself married to Brienne would be the butt of a joke, and so on.

A girl like Viserra deserved a man closer to her own age, and closer to her own level in physical beauty.

I mean, honestly, if Jaime and Brienne were ever to marry, they would be one of the most ridiculous couple in Westeros, too...

4 hours ago, Traverys said:

What is equally obvious is the problems that would cause. If one lord gets redress from a wrong done to them "over a thousand years ago," then that opens a floodgate for all claimants to past wrongs... which would probably be every House at some time or another. Not to mention they'd likely have to take Dunstonbury away from another (unnamed) house in order offer redress (if that is what was meant); House Peake (Manderly rivals of old) no longer holds it.

Back during the Dance the Peakes still held Dunstonbury (and Whitegrove and Starpike).

Not sure how this would open any floodgates. Lords lose and gain lands and lordships all the time, and usually those who lose lordships disappear into obscurity - but the Manderlys did not. They are still there, they rule vast lands in the North, and they are in a position to demand or aim at the restoration of their lands and castles down along the Mander.

And quite honestly I do expect this thing to come up again should the Manderlys decide to side with Stannis. The Manderlys still carry all the titles they had back in the days of the Gardeners, keeping even the Order of the Green Hand alive. This means something. I don't expect them to want to move all down south to the Mander again ... but creating a cadet branch there, why not?

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10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If Alysanne had had truly Viserra's interest at heart - or rather: if the author wanted to send that message - then something along those lines should have been mentioned. Instead we get her betrothal to an old guy whom she does not want to marry, and the reasoning she is given for that is not exactly that the guy is going to take care of her, make her happy, settle her down, give her life meaning, etc. but just the stuff I already quoted above.

As you've said, Alysanne did her best to make the best marriages as possible for most of Viserra's elder siblings.  Just because she observes what we eventually are shown to be apparent - that Viserra was desperate to get Baelon to marry her - is not sufficient evidence for me to conclude she is trying to punish her by marrying her to Manderly.  Viserra's behavior was clearly becoming a problem, and Alysanne responded as most would.  That's my read on it.  You obviously have a different one.  M'kay.

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You cannot pull alternative explanations out of thin air. The only issue Alysanne has with Viserra is her interest in Baelon and the ambition she sees behind her desire to marry him. That's what the text gives us. What you speculate here about is not actually drawn from the text.

The text emphasizes she got really drunk on two separate occasions.  Considering how little the text addresses Viserra otherwise, I think it's reasonable to infer that she had a particular behavioral problem while she remained at court.  And yes, her obsession with Baelon is obviously a part of that.  But it's the symptom not the cause.  You're the one pulling things out of the air like Alysanne was jealous of Viserra.

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, we are told (and this whole episode is just court gossip, there is no source confirmation for this and we don't really know whether the entire thing *actually* happened) that Viserra, a teenager, needed two maids and one Kingsguard to steady her on her way from Baelon's bedchamber back to her own. This implies that the girl got herself really drunk and may not actually have been in the state of mind nor mentally capable to propose to Baelon, or explain to him why she wanted to marry him.

Right, this doesn't contradict my point at all.  My point is Baelon could have discretely put her to bed without anyone knowing about the incident.  And that's not what he did.

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I meant that Lord Manderly's Mermen Court and his family and the entire North would see this as a joke. Just as Tyrek's marriage to Ermesande Hayford is a joke, just as any boy/man finding himself married to Brienne would be the butt of a joke, and so on.

Again, I don't see why it matters.  The mermen court and the entire north would probably also want to see the beautiful Targaryen bride, whether they laugh behind her back or not.  If things had worked out, I don't think Tyrek would have gave a shit about the laughs when he got to be lord of Hayford.

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

A girl like Viserra deserved a man closer to her own age, and closer to her own level in physical beauty.

Yeah this is where you lose me.  Why does Viserra deserve this?  Compared to, ya know, 99.999% of the rest of the female Westerosi population, this smacks of entitlement.

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, honestly, if Jaime and Brienne were ever to marry, they would be one of the most ridiculous couple in Westeros, too...

....the fuck does this have to do with anything?

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21 minutes ago, DMC said:

As you've said, Alysanne did her best to make the best marriages as possible for most of Viserra's elder siblings. Just because she observes what we eventually are shown to be apparent - that Viserra was desperate to get Baelon to marry her - is not sufficient evidence for me to conclude she is trying to punish her by marrying her to Manderly.  Viserra's behavior was clearly becoming a problem, and Alysanne responded as most would.  That's my read on it.  You obviously have a different one.  M'kay.

When something doesn't look like a duck it likely isn't a duck. Alysanne is breaking her pattern here. She doesn't treat Viserra the way he treats her other children.

21 minutes ago, DMC said:

The text emphasizes she got really drunk on two separate occasions.  Considering how little the text addresses Viserra otherwise, I think it's reasonable to infer that she had a particular behavioral problem while she remained at court.  And yes, her obsession with Baelon is obviously a part of that.  But it's the symptom not the cause.  You're the one pulling things out of the air like Alysanne was jealous of Viserra.

The jealousy thing was just an idea - but the fact that this marriage is ridiculous and apparently a way to get her out of the way is pretty obvious. Alysanne is of the opinion that Viserra has a certain desire and works to achieve that desire. And she wants to stop that. She doesn't care about the dynastic advantages it might bring if Viserra would give some more children, nor whether she could be a good queen or not.

Somehow it is bad as such that she (supposedly) wants to be queen. Perhaps she is right there - perhaps not. But the whole thing is never described as a lesson or anything that was done for Viserra's own good.

21 minutes ago, DMC said:

Right, this doesn't contradict my point at all.  My point is Baelon could have discretely put her to bed without anyone knowing about the incident.  And that's not what he did.

Unless he had the strength of two maids and one Kingsguard he obviously could not...

21 minutes ago, DMC said:

Again, I don't see why it matters.  The mermen court and the entire north would probably also want to see the beautiful Targaryen bride, whether they laugh behind her back or not.  If things had worked out, I don't think Tyrek would have gave a shit about the laughs when he got to be lord of Hayford.

Well, I really don't like it when young girls are married to old men against their will. I won't go along with a stupid 'that's for their own good' narrative.

21 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah this is where you lose me.  Why does Viserra deserve this?  Compared to, ya know, 99.999% of the rest of the female Westerosi population, this smacks of entitlement.

She is a princess. Mostly rich people have to deal with arranged marriages. Beautiful commoners can look for and marry beautiful commoners.

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So I've got a question. At one point it's said that Alysanne contemplated renouncing her marriage to spend the rest of her life with the silent sisters. What is renouncing the marriage mean exactly? My read on this is that it's more than a separation.

And if she had walked away from her marriage, would the king have been allowed to take another wife?

@Ran, are you able to answer this? The second part especially. (Sorry, I know you've been tagged in a lot of things since the book has come out.)

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

When something doesn't look like a duck it likely isn't a duck. Alysanne is breaking her pattern here. She doesn't treat Viserra the way he treats her other children.

Let's put it into context.  This is after Saera and Daella.  Perhaps she was actually trying to circumvent the "pattern" there, and she thinks a marriage pact Jaehaerys will acquiesce to is the best possible approach.

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Alysanne is of the opinion that Viserra has a certain desire and works to achieve that desire. And she wants to stop that. She doesn't care about the dynastic advantages it might bring if Viserra would give some more children, nor whether she could be a good queen or not.

Alysanne is rightly concerned after her daughter gets blackout drunk and naked as a seduction technique.

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Unless he had the strength of two maids and one Kingsguard he obviously could not...

Sure he could have.  If she was that drunk, getting her to put her clothes back on then putting her to bed shouldn't be that hard at all.  Done it before myself.

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I really don't like it when young girls are married to old men against their will. I won't go along with a stupid 'that's for their own good' narrative.

I don't know why you think that's my narrative.  I suppose I should have clarified this from the beginning but I thought it was assumed.  I'm not trying to justify it.  You're applying modern ethics upon the norms of Westerosi society.  If that's the conversation, of course I'm on your side.  But it's not.

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She is a princess. Mostly rich people have to deal with arranged marriages. Beautiful commoners can look for and marry beautiful commoners.

Ah.  So it's only the pretty that should get their choice.  Quite egalitarian of you.

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8 minutes ago, DMC said:

Let's put it into context.  This is after Saera and Daella.  Perhaps she was actually trying to circumvent the "pattern" there, and she thinks a marriage pact Jaehaerys will acquiesce to is the best possible approach.

We don't know to what degree Jaehaerys was involved in all that - the impression he gives to his daughter and the reader is that he left the entire matter to Alysanne. Do you have any reason to doubt this part of the story?

8 minutes ago, DMC said:

Alysanne is rightly concerned after her daughter gets blackout drunk and naked as a seduction technique.

Are you deliberately obscuring the chronology? Viserra is drunk two times only after this marriage had been announced. Have we any reason to believe Viserra was overly into alcohol prior to the announcement of this betrothal?

No.

8 minutes ago, DMC said:

Sure he could have.  If she was that drunk, getting her to put her clothes back on then putting her to bed shouldn't be that hard at all.  Done it before myself.

It is not said that Baelon chose to call two maids and a Kingsguard to get her back into her chambers, it is said they were needed to do that. 

8 minutes ago, DMC said:

I don't know why you think that's my narrative.  I suppose I should have clarified this from the beginning but I thought it was assumed.  I'm not trying to justify it.  You're applying modern ethics upon the norms of Westerosi society.  If that's the conversation, of course I'm on your side.  But it's not.

No, we are not talking about modern morals and all. It is quite clear that those marriages between old men and young girls are not seen as the ideal marriage you want your for daughter. Instead there are quite a few instances were such marriages are shown to be used to punish or rid yourself of troublesome daughters.

And this is the framework in which this marriage is best seen. From what I can recall there is no marriage here were a marriage of young girl to an old man she never even met is presented as a great or good idea.

8 minutes ago, DMC said:

Ah.  So it's only the pretty that should get their choice.  Quite egalitarian of you.

No. That wasn't the point. The point was that pretty commoners can actually do here something Viserra could not - thanks to her own mother. She could have given her choice. Instead she tried to force her to marry some old man.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't know to what degree Jaehaerys was involved in all that - the impression he gives to his daughter and the reader is that he left the entire matter to Alysanne. Do you have any reason to doubt this part of the story?

Jaehaerys' involvement is precisely what I'm saying Alysanne was trying to avoid.

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Are you deliberately obscuring the chronology? Viserra is drunk two times only after this marriage had been announced. Have we any reason to believe Viserra was overly into alcohol prior to the announcement of this betrothal?

No.

Um, no.  Obviously the second drunk time was after the match was made.  Was the first?  Again, I don't specifically recall and don't have the book.  But, isn't the entire basis of your argument that the marriage was made because Alysanne wanted to avoid Viserra "convincing" Baelon to marry her?  Wouldn't that be a reaction to what happened in the first drunken instance?  Regardless, Viserra is depicted as a girl that liked to get fucked up too much.  As someone with that same affliction, I can empathize, but I'm not gonna blame Alysanne for her reaction to it.

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is not said that Baelon chose to call two maids and a Kingsguard to get her back into her chambers, it is said they were needed to do that. 

Oye.  And I'm saying this would not be necessary if Baelon had patience.  Or, if it was, then yeah she clearly needed Betty Ford.  Instead she got Manderly and White Harbor.  That was how it goes.

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is quite clear that those marriages between old men and young girls are not seen as the ideal marriage you want your for daughter. Instead there are quite a few instances were such marriages are shown to be used to punish or rid yourself of troublesome daughters.

Says who?  Your interpretation of the whole of Martin's works?  How could Alysanne or any other character be apprised of this?

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The point was that pretty commoners can actually do here something Viserra could not - thanks to her own mother. She could have given her choice. Instead she tried to force her to marry some old man.

How do you know Viserra wasn't given that choice?  Doesn't the quote you base this argument on mention that Viserra didn't give a fig for all the squires that would hit on her?

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1 hour ago, DMC said:

Jaehaerys' involvement is precisely what I'm saying Alysanne was trying to avoid.

The impression we get is that he knew about the entire thing and gave his wife free reign in that one. Viserra actually involved him in the thing, after all.

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Um, no.  Obviously the second drunk time was after the match was made.  Was the first?  Again, I don't specifically recall and don't have the book.  But, isn't the entire basis of your argument that the marriage was made because Alysanne wanted to avoid Viserra "convincing" Baelon to marry her?  Wouldn't that be a reaction to what happened in the first drunken instance?  Regardless, Viserra is depicted as a girl that liked to get fucked up too much.  As someone with that same affliction, I can empathize, but I'm not gonna blame Alysanne for her reaction to it.

Yeah, the first one was. It is a reaction to the announcement of the betrothal. That's all very clear from the text. And since we have no reason to believe Viserra actually drank aside from those two instances my guess is rather the girl had too little exposure to alcohol than too much. An alcoholic would have been in much better shape when dealing with Baelon.

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Oye.  And I'm saying this would not be necessary if Baelon had patience.  Or, if it was, then yeah she clearly needed Betty Ford.  Instead she got Manderly and White Harbor.  That was how it goes.

If you know things better than Baelon and Gyldayn why don't you fill in the other blankets in the book?

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Says who?  Your interpretation of the whole of Martin's works?  How could Alysanne or any other character be apprised of this?

Care to give me an example where a young girl was not punished or gotten out of sight in a match with an older man? This kind of thing is even addressed in a meta-discussion in AFfC when Cersei and Qyburn talk about the implication of certain hasty marriage in Dorne involving young women and old men.

1 hour ago, DMC said:

How do you know Viserra wasn't given that choice?  Doesn't the quote you base this argument on mention that Viserra didn't give a fig for all the squires that would hit on her?

Viserra is described as a sly girl who knew how to play with men without allowing them put a bastard in her belly or take her maidenhead. Her games had nothing to do with her looking for a husband - if we can believe those stories.

In Daella's case we get the background for the marriage prospects. In Viserra's case we don't. We just get a betrothal and no other possible match aside from Baelon. There is nothing to indicate that there was a choice there. You cannot prove a negative, but it is silly to assume stuff happens between pages and behind the scenes you have no reason to even remotely entertain. 

With rationale there you can pretty much justify anything. Because it is actually possible regardless what a parent does - beating the child up, say, or killing it (if it has dishonored the family or is with 'the gods' after death) - to justify such actions by saying 'I've only your best interests at heart.

Can you prove Jaehaerys didn't secretly marry Alarra Stark and take her as his second wife? Or that Alysanne's children are truly all Jaehaerys' children?

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12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And since we have no reason to believe Viserra actually drank aside from those two instances my guess is rather the girl had too little exposure to alcohol than too much. An alcoholic would have been in much better shape when dealing with Baelon.

So we shouldn't assume Viserra is a drunk because there's "only" those two instances - which I'm pretty sure constitutes about half her exposure in the book - but we should assume all you are in regards to Alysanne's ill-intent, etc. due to your one quote?  That's a pretty sweet setup you got there.

And speaking as an alcoholic, no, no she wouldn't.

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The impression we get is that he knew about the entire thing and gave his wife free reign in that one. Viserra actually involved him in the thing, after all.

She did?  When?  Again, honest question.

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Care to give me an example where a young girl was not punished or gotten out of sight in a match with an older man? This kind of thing is even addressed in a meta-discussion in AFfC when Cersei and Qyburn talk about the implication of certain hasty marriage in Dorne involving young women and old men.

I'm honestly not clear what your point is here.

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In Daella's case we get the background for the marriage prospects. In Viserra's case we don't. We just get a betrothal and no other possible match aside from Baelon. There is nothing to indicate that there was a choice there. You cannot prove a negative, but it is silly to assume stuff happens between pages and behind the scenes you have no reason to even remotely entertain. 

Alright, so you're saying it's silly to blame things on characters based on an absence of evidence.  That's exactly what you're doing with Alysanne, so I totally agree.  She didn't provide her with other suitors?  Absence of evidence.  Manderly is four times as old and would be a joke?  Absence of evidence.  Betrothing Viserra to anyone younger would have been better, or she would have even preferred it if it wasn't Baelon?  Absence of evidence.

28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Can you prove Jaehaerys didn't secretly marry Alarra Stark and take her as his second wife? Or that Alysanne's children are truly all Jaehaerys' children?

WTF?

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Man i just finished this book and i must say i found myself loving these two they really were one in a million. I even have to had it to them all of these kids were entertaining not one dull moment with them.

One thing stuck with me is how Jaeheays reacted to Searea advocating for Maegor the rise it got out of him surprises me. It was all the confirmation i needed to see how that guy really impacted his family i can only imagine what went through his mind remembering how he killed his two brothers, caused his elder sister pain and just disrespected his father. 

I also liked how his Kingsguard backed him in his minority and was ready to die for him and assured lord baratheon you will come with us if this starts (much more than i can say for Aegon III KG). They fact he trained so hard with them just really won me over wished he lived longer and i can understand him wanting his song to be his heir before Daenearys died. 

 

Alysanne my whats not to love this woman wot prove a point gave the master of coin and king the water that the common folk were drinking and just straight up took the man she wanted nothing but respect for her. 

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The biggest issue to me with Viserra's marriage is the way Alysanne insisted on Lord Manderly instead of a Lord of one of the Great/Paramount houses. Daella got to chose between being Lady of the Stormlands, Lady of the Westerlands or Lady of the Vale while Viserra is thrown up North and not even to it's Lord! It was a waste of alliances when they could have married her to either Tymond Lannister or Boremund Baratheon (I'm assuming both were still single but both could have married in the intervening six years). Hell they could have even tried for a match to the Prince of Dorne, which could have potentially brought the Martells into the realm a century earlier (after all a Targaryen Princess marrying the Prince of Dorne is what ultimately helped bring that Kingdom into the Realm). Ultimately Alysanne's actions with Viserra strikes me as an overreaction to what happened with Saera or a true fear that Viserra would (somehow) get Baelon to dispute the succession later down the road. Honestly the entire episode with Viserra was quite weak to me.

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8 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

So I've got a question. At one point it's said that Alysanne contemplated renouncing her marriage to spend the rest of her life with the silent sisters. What is renouncing the marriage mean exactly? My read on this is that it's more than a separation.

And if she had walked away from her marriage, would the king have been allowed to take another wife?

@Ran, are you able to answer this? The second part especially. (Sorry, I know you've been tagged in a lot of things since the book has come out.)

I think renouncing her marriage was basically meaning turning away from being a wife, but that doesn't mean that the marriage is ended. That said, if she became a silent sister, it may be that that would provide the means for the Faith so an ending of the marriage bond and the king's ability to remarry. But that's just my speculation.

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Not really following the argument of the last couple pages. 

Why the concern for one obscure Targaryen noble having to marry an old guy? What about Lysa Tully’s fate, marrying old stinky breath Jon Arryn?

Or Walder Frey’s various young noble wives?

I’m sure there are plenty of other examples I’ve missed.

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21 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Not really following the argument of the last couple pages. 

Why the concern for one obscure Targaryen noble having to marry an old guy? What about Lysa Tully’s fate, marrying old stinky breath Jon Arryn?

Or Walder Frey’s various young noble wives?

I’m sure there are plenty of other examples I’ve missed.

Jon Arryn was Lord Paramount of the Vale and had no children and Walder Frey with time started to marry less prestigious houses like Farring and then his own vassal Erenford. That indicates that as the time went bigger houses didn't considered Walder good match anymore.

But most importantly, Viserra was royal princess and Theomore was at least thrice her age and had numerous adult children already.

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