[SPOILERS] Jaehaerys and Alysanne

[Paxter Redwyne]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

List the things that don't make sense to you. 

- Forcing Daella to marry someone at the age of 16

- At the same time allowing Baelon to remain widower for seventeen years until his death

- Forcing Vaegon to become maester just because he didn't want to marry

- Marrying Viserra to over seventy year old man who already had sons, grandsons and great-grandsons just because "he was good to them" when they visited the North

[Alyssa of House Arryn]

1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Forcing Daella to marry someone at the age of 16

- At the same time allowing Baelon to remain widower for seventeen years until his death

- Forcing Vaegon to become maester just because he didn't want to marry

- Marrying Viserra to over seventy year old man who already had sons, grandsons and great-grandsons just because "he was good to them" when they visited the North

Agree about Daella and Viserra, not so about Baelon and Vaegon. Baelon has already done his dynastic duty - married a woman and fathered sons. Why marry again, especially when he's not even the heir? About Vaegon, 'forced' is a little too dramatic. Vaegon not once voices any displeasure or makes apparent he does not want to go to the Citadel (like Aerys and Rhaella being both miserable in their wedding, or Viserra telling Alysanne to marry Manderly herself), nor did he at some point actually go to his father and tell him explicitly what he wanted to do in his life (like Naerys begged Viserys to allow her become a septa).

[Paxter Redwyne]

54 minutes ago, Alyssa of House Arryn said:

Agree about Daella and Viserra, not so about Baelon and Vaegon. Baelon has already done his dynastic duty - married a woman and fathered sons. Why marry again, especially when he's not even the heir? About Vaegon, 'forced' is a little too dramatic. Vaegon not once voices any displeasure or makes apparent he does not want to go to the Citadel (like Aerys and Rhaella being both miserable in their wedding, or Viserra telling Alysanne to marry Manderly herself), nor did he at some point actually go to his father and tell him explicitly what he wanted to do in his life (like Naerys begged Viserys to allow her become a septa).

I mainly wanted to provide contrast with how Jaehaerys treated his sons over daughters. Vaegon was happy to go to the Citadel but to be honest Jaehaerys told him that he is going to send him to Oldtown before he asked if Vaegon is okay with that.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

We actually do, one is called a 'witch' the other the 'mad maid'. How did you miss that?

And where is that connected to their status as maidens? Where is it made explicit that they are called 'witch' and 'mad' just because they are unmarried?

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

My point was very clear, please stop trying to change it. Parents did not want their children remaining single, something that is still true to this day. Older unmarried women were looked down upon. 

"Strong and healthy single women under the age of fifty were forbidden to rent houses or rooms, but to go into service; women with a bad reputation were to be evicted by their landlords. Such regulations were a further pointer to women's worsening employment prospects in the early modern period."  -Ward, Jennifer (2006). Women in England in the Middle Ages.

Loving parents wanted their children to be happy and, rightly or wrongly, that thought meant them having families of their own. 

I don't care about such generalizations. Give me evidence that this is so in Westeros. And give me evidence that issues certain children like Daella have also causes their parents to think marriage is what is going to make them happy.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

She is also described as being 'simpleminded'.  We don't know what age she was seduced but her being pregnant would also have delayed her betrothal.

Nope, Gael killed herself not years after her stillbirth - she would have been 18-19 when she got pregnant, meaning she was 2-3 years older than Daella was at her wedding. Yet there wasn't even talk about a betrothal.

Jaehaera is also described as 'simple'. I don't think there is much evidence she was mentally disabled, nor did that prevent her own marriage or the suggestion that she be married. Instead, what we learn about Gael is that she was actually a comfort and companion to Alysanne in her grief - making it very likely she was no doddering simpleton who needed to be cared for but rather capable to actually comfort her aging mother.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

More importantly between the years of betrothing Daella and Gael reaching her teens Alysanne saw Aemon, Alyssa, Daella, Visserra, Maegelle and the two stillborns all dead while Saera in exile. It is understandable that in such a situation a mother might delay a betrothal to have a few more years with the her youngest child. 

So here you suddenly make an exception from your generalization that parents think their children must marry? Why? Didn't the example of Alyssa Velaryon also have the potential to teach Alysanne a lesson? A lesson she should, perhaps, have heeded in the case of Daella?

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

And of course Alysanne's views of marriage may have soured at this point. Earlier she was happily married and the marriages she arranged for three of her children seemed equally as happy. Her views on marriage may have changed in the last 15 years.

Or not. We are not given any reason to believe that they changed. She even forced Viserra into a shitty betrothal - and here the marriage is not to be blamed for her death, anyway. And that happened after Daella, Alyssa, and Saera.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

What on earth are you talking about? 

Quote me, don't just make up arguments you think I have made. 

Parents wanting their daughters to marry is a historical fact. Almost every female fairytale involves a happy ending where they find love and live happily ever after, the majority of films aimed at the female audience in the 20th century involves them finding a partner. 

Our society has been incredibly sexist since before the middle ages with the belief that a woman who has not married and had a family has missed out. That is a fact and you trying to argue that it's something I have made up is ridiculous. 

For centuries women growing up in our society have been led to believe that is what is supposed to be fulfilling for a woman, parents wanting their children to be happy have wanted them to have a partner and children of their own. 

If you don't back those statements up with statements about how Westerosi unmarried women are seen or treated you have nothing to offer. Sorry.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

We are told by Maegelle that she's not very literate. 

“Maegelle says the Faith will not want a girl who cannot read her prayers.”

It is understandable why she would need help, and given her relationship with the three youngest children was reported to be good it is not surprise that one of them helped her. 

Might be. Or not. But we do know that Daella only had difficulty with orthography. She could have written letters still and her mother could have read them. Did she truly ask her stepdaughter to write them or did they decide that for her? We don't know.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Thus it was that King Argilac reached out to the Targaryens on Dragonstone, offering Lord Aegon his daughter in marriage, with all the lands east of the Gods Eye from the Trident to the Blackwater Rush as her dowry.

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 "He is on his way home, he says, and hopes to see his darling daughter soon. He writes that Lyonel Corbray seems well pleased with his bride, and even more so with her dowry. 

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Lady Myranda snorted. "I pray he gets the pox. He has a bastard daughter by some common girl, you know. My lord father had hoped to marry me to Harry, but Lady Waynwood would not hear of it. I do not know whether it was me she found unsuitable, or just my dowry."

 

and of course Hoster paid a dowry in the form of military support

"Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully."

Dowries exist in Westeros, your earlier claim that Daemon was the only time it came into play was disproven and so was you trying to save face by saying it was only Daemon and Roose. 

Yeah, okay, but they don't play as important a role as they did in real life. In very few marriages does the dowry thing come up, and strangely enough one of them involves a man.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

When is she described as sickly? Not in her childhood, not in general married life, the first mention of sickness is when she is giving birth. 

Her very size made any pregnancy she may have had problematic.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Obviously you have misread and thought she was sickly, she was not. Most people would acknowledge they may be wrong if they came to a conclusion based on misinformation. 

Most people would also not cite books that have nothing to do with a fantasy series as evidence for their own views.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

As for frail, Gael is the daughter who is described that way. Daella is roughly the same build as her mother, her issues are mental rather than physical. 

Like Alysanne herself, Daella was small—on her toes, she stood five feet two inches—and there was a childish aspect to her that led everyone who met her to think she was younger than her age. Unlike Alysanne, she was delicate as well, in ways the queen had never been. Her mother had been fearless; Daella always seemed to be afraid.

Delicate can refer to health issues, too, as you should know.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I do understand. When was Sansa consulted? Or Arya?  Their aunt Lyanna? Cat or Lysa? Cersei? Her daughter Myrcella?

Daughters are not asked, they are told. How Daella's parents treated her was the norm in their society. 

She gave zero indication she did not want to marry, she was smitten with Blackwood before she knew his religion and was upset that Corlys prefered his boats to her. 

Nobody doubts that - which is my point. Loving parents should have reconsidered 'the standard notion' of just forcing their children to do things.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

How is this any different to the majority of noble daughters in the series?

Nobody said it was different.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Same is true of Lords and fathers in general. Cersei's the Queen and seemed likely to have remarried if Tywin had lived.

Cersei would have killed Tywin herself before it came to that.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, Gael is the described as being simple. Daella was simply a little stupid. 

I've suggested that Daella may have been the template of this Targaryen simpleness we hear so much about. After all, Jaehaera is no doddering simpleton, either.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

But that is demonstrably false. Fire & Blood, the only canon source we have, makes it clear she was doing well

Life is slower there, and quieter. She will like that. I swear to you, Your Grace, she will be safe and happy.”

And so she was, for a time. The eldest of Lord Rodrik’s four children from his first wife was a daughter, Elys, three years older than her new stepmother. The two of them clashed from the first. Daella doted on the three younger children, however, and they seemed to adore her in turn. Lord Rodrik, true to his word, was a kind and caring husband who never failed to pamper and protect the bride he called “my precious princess.” Such letters as Daella sent her mother (letters largely written for her by Lord Rodrik’s younger daughter, Amanda) spoke glowingly of how happy she was

She was precisely the type of wife the Lord of the Vale desired and according to our only sources, happy. 

What did Lord Rodrick expect from her? 

What sources claim she was a 'joke'? 

eh?

LOL, you do recall, I take it, that the duties of a proper lady are more than just be happy, right? She is supposed to organize the household, oversee the stewards and maesters (which is why being able to do sums is actually pretty important for a lady, something Arya knows may come as a problem to Sansa later in life), write letters, represent her lord husband when he is away, receive and entertain guests, etc.

Daella could done of the above because she was far too stupid and fearful to even try.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

If she did not want to marry then following her sister and aunt into the Faith was an option, an o[tion her parents would have accepted. 

No, we know they discussed the Faith.

I agree, which makes it clear that Daella did not want to join. 

Can you give us a quote for that? Daella knew her sister joined the Faith, but nobody ever offered her to join the Faith, did they? And considering her stupidity it is a stretch to just claim that she must have thought about that.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You might want to read on, it was not a farewell for good. 

It turned out to be, considering that Vaegon never returned to court until his father explicitly summoned him in 101 AC. The way Jaehaerys phrases things don't imply Vaegon is welcome again in KL if he should fail - nor is the entire thing an offer or choice. It has been decided for him - a nearly grown man - to go to the Citadel. He happened to like it there, but his father didn't care about that.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Alyssa of House Arryn said:

Agree about Daella and Viserra, not so about Baelon and Vaegon. Baelon has already done his dynastic duty - married a woman and fathered sons. Why marry again, especially when he's not even the heir? About Vaegon, 'forced' is a little too dramatic. Vaegon not once voices any displeasure or makes apparent he does not want to go to the Citadel (like Aerys and Rhaella being both miserable in their wedding, or Viserra telling Alysanne to marry Manderly herself), nor did he at some point actually go to his father and tell him explicitly what he wanted to do in his life (like Naerys begged Viserys to allow her become a septa).

@Bernie Mac claims parents believe their children are only happy in marriage. So there you have it. A widower should, of course, remarry if this were true. And since Baelon didn't produce any daughters he could have easily enough married another sister or later even the widowed Jocelyn Baratheon.

 

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

Sorry to be a pain but does anyone have or know the complete list of children and their dates of births for Jaehaerys and Alysanne's kids?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

6 minutes ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

Sorry to be a pain but does anyone have or know the complete list of children and their dates of births for Jaehaerys and Alysanne's kids?

Aegon (52), Daenerys (53), Aemon (55), Baelon (57), Alyssa (60), Maegelle (62), Vaegon (63), Daelle (64), Saera (67), Viserra (71), Gaemon (73), Vaerion (77), Gael (80)

[Bernie Mac]

5 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

- Forcing Daella to marry someone at the age of 16

Which is not uncommon in GRRM's world or, to a slightly lesser extent, the nobles in our own middle ages. 

Two of the main characters in the series, Dany and Sansa, are both set to have multiple marriages before they reach sixteen. Myrcella is also a few years younger. 

• Maegor was 13 when he married
• Alyssa was 15 when she married Aenys
• Aegon was 15 when he married Rhaena
• Alysanne was 15 when she married Jaehaerys
• Aemon was 15, his (aunt) 16 when they married
• Alyssa was 15 when she married

So Daella's age is not unusual, it was the norm and continued to be so long after she died. 

• Rhaenyra was 16/17 when she married Laenor
• Aegon II and Helaena were 15 and 13 when they married
• Aegon III was betrothed to the 6 year old Daenaera who was 16 when she gave birth to Daeron I
• Viserys I was married at 13
• Baela and Rhaena were both 16 when they wed
• Naerys was 15 when she married Aegon IV
• Daenerys 15 when she married Marion Martell
• Daeron II was no older than 16 when he married

Daella is not young to be married, not by Targaryen standards. Your issue here is not with Alysanne but with either their society or the author. 

5 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

- At the same time allowing Baelon to remain widower for seventeen years until his death

Baelon already had two heirs, was a man (sadly it is still a sexist society) and was the heir to the Throne. 

It is unclear who would have the final say on the matter given the above,. 

5 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

- Forcing Vaegon to become maester just because he didn't want to marry

No one forced him. You can't force someone to become a Maester. 

“The Citadel will take charge of you,” His Grace said. “It is for you to determine what becomes of you.” The prince responded curtly, as was his wont. “Yes, Father. Good.” Afterward Jaehaerys told the queen that he thought Vaegon had almost smiled.

He was sent to study, like men such as Oberyn Martell, Lord Strong and Lord Massey had done, becoming a Maester is not mandatory when studying at the Citadel. Vaegon had the final say on what he would become, he chose the Citadel. 

 

5 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

- Marrying Viserra to over seventy year old man

Where is it claimed he was over 70? He was still a fighter so I doubt he was 70. 

5 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

 

who already had sons, grandsons and great-grandsons

Sons yes, grandsons or great grandsons are never mentioned, though  it should be noted that Baelor was not long away from becoming a grandfather.

5 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

 

just because "he was good to them" when they visited the North

 

No, that is not the only reason. 

The marriage would do much and more to tie the realm together by uniting one of the great houses of the North to the Iron Throne, the king declared. Lord Theomore had won great renown as a warrior in his youth, and had proved himself a canny lord under whose rule White Harbor had prospered greatly

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“Theomore is a good man,” Alysanne told her daughter, “a wise man, with a kind heart and a good head on his shoulders. His people love him.”

These are perfectly valid reasons.

[Bernie Mac]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@Bernie Mac claims parents believe their children are only happy in marriage.

Are you incapable of correctly reading anyone else's posts?

I claimed the majority of parents, especially in the middle ages to the mid 20th  century, have wanted their children to have families of their own. 

They have not wanted their children, daughters especially, to end up alone. 

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

So there you have it. A widower should, of course, remarry if this were true.

Is there any need for this snide bullshit? My argument was clear, you trying to change it is a little pathetic. 

 

[Lord Varys]

We all know the people are betrothed and married early in Westeros. That's not the issue.

The issue is that Daella wasn't exactly a normal child and any person with half a brain should have realized that she should either not have married or only be married at a later age.

That is not so hard to understand. Playing the apologist for Alysanne and Jaehaerys there, or painting this as a non-issue without having any internal evidence that such things are unheard of or worse than actually trying to prevent your child's early death leads nowhere.

And this is not the only instance such things come up and treated as if the people involved are all lackwits. The idea that Laenor-Rhaenyra were a great and proper match was utter stupidity on the side of all the involved parties. You don't marry your heir to a homosexual man, nor can you reasonably expect children from such a marriage. Deeply set romantic and sexual preferences are not comparable to food preferences. Not to mention that it is utterly stupid and careless to force your child into a marriage they most definitely do not want and then expect everything is going to turn out well.

35 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Are you incapable of correctly reading anyone else's posts?

I claimed the majority of parents, especially in the middle ages to the mid 20th  century, have wanted their children to have families of their own. 

They have not wanted their children, daughters especially, to end up alone. 

You still did not give us any valid reason why this should be exactly the same in Westeros. 

35 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Is there any need for this snide bullshit? My argument was clear, you trying to change it is a little pathetic. 

Baelon only produced three children, and Aemon only a daughter. It was stupid to not force Baelon into a second marriage, just as it was stupid to marry Prince Viserys to a child bride. Aemma could have suffered the same fate as her mother, or worse still die due to a miscarriage/stillbirth. With the Targaryens dying like flies the dynasty was fast approaching the times of Jaehaerys' own youth when there was basically only 1-2 branches left.

[Paxter Redwyne]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Which is not uncommon in GRRM's world or, to a slightly lesser extent, the nobles in our own middle ages. 

Two of the main characters in the series, Dany and Sansa, are both set to have multiple marriages before they reach sixteen. Myrcella is also a few years younger. 

• Maegor was 13 when he married
• Alyssa was 15 when she married Aenys
• Aegon was 15 when he married Rhaena
• Alysanne was 15 when she married Jaehaerys
• Aemon was 15, his (aunt) 16 when they married
• Alyssa was 15 when she married

So Daella's age is not unusual, it was the norm and continued to be so long after she died. 

• Rhaenyra was 16/17 when she married Laenor
• Aegon II and Helaena were 15 and 13 when they married
• Aegon III was betrothed to the 6 year old Daenaera who was 16 when she gave birth to Daeron I
• Viserys I was married at 13
• Baela and Rhaena were both 16 when they wed
• Naerys was 15 when she married Aegon IV
• Daenerys 15 when she married Marion Martell
• Daeron II was no older than 16 when he married

Daella is not young to be married, not by Targaryen standards. Your issue here is not with Alysanne but with either their society or the author. 

You cannot tell me what I am thinking. I pointed out that there was no reason to FORCE her to marry someone. She clearly wasn't the healthiest girl and if Jaehaerys really cared about her he could have waited with marriage.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Baelon already had two heirs, was a man (sadly it is still a sexist society) and was the heir to the Throne. 

It is unclear who would have the final say on the matter given the above,. 

You don't need to tell anyone that Westeros is sexist society, it's obvious. Realistically nobles in middle ages very rarely stayed as widowers. And Kings were often oblieged to take another spouse for dynastic or political reasons.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

No one forced him. You can't force someone to become a Maester. 

“The Citadel will take charge of you,” His Grace said. “It is for you to determine what becomes of you.” The prince responded curtly, as was his wont. “Yes, Father. Good.” Afterward Jaehaerys told the queen that he thought Vaegon had almost smiled.

He was sent to study, like men such as Oberyn Martell, Lord Strong and Lord Massey had done, becoming a Maester is not mandatory when studying at the Citadel. Vaegon had the final say on what he would become, he chose the Citadel. 

It's really funny how you ommited the sentence before:

"Three days later, King Jaehaerys summoned Prince Vaegon to his solar to tell him that he would be taking ship for Oldtown in a fortnight."

He didn't even asked him if he wants to get there.

And yes, I am pretty sure that King can force his children to do whatever he wants. Not only is he final authority in the Kingdom, he is also their father and they are supposed to obey him.

And I wrote in following comment that I know Vaegon was happy to go to Citadel. My objection was that he didn't contacted him about the matter before.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sons yes, grandsons or great grandsons are never mentioned, though  it should be noted that Baelor was not long away from becoming a grandfather.

Simple calculations give that he surely was already great-grandfather as Lord Desmond was his great-grandson. Torrhen Manderly already had children in 136AC, so he could be assumed to be born around 100AC and his father Desmond 80AC, while Viserra died 87AC.

Intersetingly semi-canonical source Blood of the Dragons gave Desmond's birth date as 66AC, that is before Viserra was even born. 

So yes - If this is true, Theomore had great-grandchildren older than Viserra.

This match was simply absurd: Theomore was at least fifty years older than her, already had sons, grandsons and great-grandsons, and Manderlys aren't even a great house.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, that is not the only reason. 

The marriage would do much and more to tie the realm together by uniting one of the great houses of the North to the Iron Throne, the king declared. Lord Theomore had won great renown as a warrior in his youth, and had proved himself a canny lord under whose rule White Harbor had prospered greatly

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“Theomore is a good man,” Alysanne told her daughter, “a wise man, with a kind heart and a good head on his shoulders. His people love him.”

These are perfectly valid reasons.

These are terrible reasons. He was lord of a lesser house, he was already loyal to the Iron Throne, and he had already multiple heirs so Viserra's children would never inherit White Harbor. Not to mention his skill at arms mean nothing at his age.

If Starks were rebellious it maybe would make sense as a sign that if they misbehave, Jaehaerys would replace them with Manderlys, but they too were loyal to the Iron Throne.

It's a simple waste of a marriage. 

[Ran]

People make too much of "lesser houses" and the Targaryens. When you look to the Middle Ages, sure, kings didn't always just marry princesses, or the daughters of great magnates such as leading dukes. The ties they picked could be quite varied, and for varied reasons. A marriage to a Manderly provided a tie betweem the Targaryens and a significant Northern house, and should she have sons and daughters they might in turn wed among other Northern houses, and thus bring familial connections between the Targaryens and the wider nobility of the North.

As to Daella, I said it before, but I do not think being a spinster is such a dreadful thing in Westeros. Patrice Hightower is not discussed as some sort of strange creature for being a maiden. I can't understand Jaehaerys's insistence to get her married _now_, when it could very well have waited three or five or, hell, ten years. To me, Jaehaerys's attitude towards her underscores the remark that he wasn't particularly good in dealing with daughters, and generally speaking he seems to be notably misogynistic (of the patronizing variety) despite the examples of his sisters and mother. The way he bulldozes Alysanne just seems like another example of it.

He was a better king than he was a father. He's not the worst father we've seen in Westeros by any stretch of the imagination, but he was fairly imperious towards his children, especially the daughters.

[Paxter Redwyne]

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

generally speaking he seems to be notably misogynistic

Isn't the better words sexist? He didn't hate women, he just preferred his sons over daughters.

But yes, he was great king, but not the best father.

[Ran]

1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Isn't the better words sexist? He didn't hate women, he just preferred his sons over daughters.

But yes, he was great king, but not the best father.

Yes, sexist is a better choice there. I suppose it's the fact that it seemed so reflexive and ingrained in him that makes me wonder if there is something a bit deeper to it, but it's hard to pin down with the sources that we have.

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

People make too much of "lesser houses" and the Targaryens. When you look to the Middle Ages, sure, kings didn't always just marry princesses, or the daughters of great magnates such as leading dukes. The ties they picked could be quite varied, and for varied reasons. A marriage to a Manderly provided a tie betweem the Targaryens and a significant Northern house, and should she have sons and daughters they might in turn wed among other Northern houses, and thus bring familial connections between the Targaryens and the wider nobility of the North.

As to Daella, I said it before, but I do not think being a spinster is such a dreadful thing in Westeros. Patrice Hightower is not discussed as some sort of strange creature for being a maiden. I can't understand Jaehaerys's insistence to get her married _now_, when it could very well have waited three or five or, hell, ten years. To me, Jaehaerys's attitude towards her underscores the remark that he wasn't particularly good in dealing with daughters, and generally speaking he seems to be notably misogynistic (of the patronizing variety) despite the examples of his sisters and mother. The way he bulldozes Alysanne just seems like another example of it.

He was a better king than he was a father. He's not the worst father we've seen in Westeros by any stretch of the imagination, but he was fairly imperious towards his children, especially the daughters.

It’s not so much Viserra is married to a Manderly as Theodore in particular I think. But as you say, Jaehaerys wasn’t especially good at dealing with daughters. I wonder, were Lord Manderly’s descendants already married? I know he isn’t now good with daughters but surely he would realise that given a choice of a 60 year old and a 30 year old Viserys would probably be better off with the latter

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

People make too much of "lesser houses" and the Targaryens. When you look to the Middle Ages, sure, kings didn't always just marry princesses, or the daughters of great magnates such as leading dukes. The ties they picked could be quite varied, and for varied reasons. A marriage to a Manderly provided a tie betweem the Targaryens and a significant Northern house, and should she have sons and daughters they might in turn wed among other Northern houses, and thus bring familial connections between the Targaryens and the wider nobility of the North.

If the latter was part of the rationale behind this strange match then the age of Lord Theomore makes him a very poor choice for a husband who was supposed to father children on his young princess. Male fertility drops considerable the older one gets, and one assumes that the Westerosi also don't have a magical cure for impotency (which also becomes an ever greater issue as you approach the grave).

The very ugly thing about that marriage is to have a fifteen-year-old gorgeous woman being stuck with a man who may very likely not live to see her twentieth nameday. Then she would be the dowager lady of White Harbor, sitting around in the background while a step-(great)grandson oder than she herself rules as Lord of White Harbor.

However one tries to spin this, it is just cruel. A younger Lord of White Harbor - one in Viserra's own age or say only 10-20 years her senior - or the heir of such a lord could have been a fine and proper match for a younger princess. But not the old fat guy.

2 hours ago, Ran said:

As to Daella, I said it before, but I do not think being a spinster is such a dreadful thing in Westeros. Patrice Hightower is not discussed as some sort of strange creature for being a maiden. I can't understand Jaehaerys's insistence to get her married _now_, when it could very well have waited three or five or, hell, ten years. To me, Jaehaerys's attitude towards her underscores the remark that he wasn't particularly good in dealing with daughters, and generally speaking he seems to be notably misogynistic (of the patronizing variety) despite the examples of his sisters and mother. The way he bulldozes Alysanne just seems like another example of it.

The really ridiculous part there seems to be - and that cuts at the core of his understanding of women there - that he honestly just wanted her to marry any man, regardless of birth or station (he may not have been completely serious there) underlines the fact that he essentially only cared about that his daughter marry.

Perhaps we also have to see Jaehaerys conversation with his mother at end of the Regency in that light. It happened behind closed doors and considering that I'm eager to see the best in people I was willing to entertain the idea that Alyssa having wept there may be a sign that they were on reasonably good terms. But the hints as to Jaehaerys actually thoughts about the Rogar match could have led to a very ugly scene there, with Jaehaerys accusing his own mother of being a whore, spreading the legs for a traitor, etc. And what was the point of sending Alyssa back to Storm's End with Rogar where the man would eventually kill her? Was this his way to punish his mother for her second marriage? Did Alyssa want to go back to this man?

Perhaps this is all not as bad as it might be, but it could be a hint that Jaehaerys was, on a personal level, as vindictive and cruel as reveals himself to be when he and Alysanne clash over Saera (while Saera being a psychopath is clear to us - and in part o Barth - it is not those tendencies Jaehaerys condemns her for).

2 hours ago, Ran said:

He was a better king than he was a father. He's not the worst father we've seen in Westeros by any stretch of the imagination, but he was fairly imperious towards his children, especially the daughters.

One sees it with Vaegon, too. And his approach is, for one, a very realistic depiction how nobility and royalty actually deal with their children. They are not parents in any modern sense of the word. They drop their children on servants to raise them and then they treat with them on the basis of information delivered to them in reports from those servants. Jaehaerys never actually has a father-child talk with any of his children, and all his instruction how to deal with Vaegon and Daella are based on information others who are not his children bring to him. 

It is of course too much to insist Jaehaerys should have understand the autistic aspects of Vaegon's personality, but even if we ignored those aspects his approach to what a boy/youth has to be interested in and care about in life betray a very narrow mindset.

1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

It’s not so much Viserra is married to a Manderly as Theodore in particular I think. But as you say, Jaehaerys wasn’t especially good at dealing with daughters. I wonder, were Lord Manderly’s descendants already married? I know he isn’t now good with daughters but surely he would realise that given a choice of a 60 year old and a 30 year old Viserys would probably be better off with the latter

Even if we ignore the MUSH birth year for Lord Desmond it is quite clear that Theomore must have been in his 60-70s when the Viserra betrothal was announced. He had already children who were no longer all that young during Alysanne's first visit in the late 50s.

We also hear that Lord Theomore's family was 'famously large' (something we cannot say for the present day Manderlys, by the way), making it a pretty big stretch to assume that the old fat lord was the only male Manderly available at the time.

I mean, Daella had just rejected to very fine and highborn suitors just a couple of years ago. Surely Boremund Baratheon and Tymond Lannister would have been willing to marry Viserra - they may have gladly waited for the first flowering of such a gorgeous bride.

And if Aemma can be married (for apparently no reason Gyldayn thinks important enough to relate to us) as an eleven-year-old to her cousin, then young Viserra could have certainly been betrothed to either Boremund or Tymond in 80 AC.

[Bernie Mac]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

 

As to Daella, I said it before, but I do not think being a spinster is such a dreadful thing in Westeros.

Two things, 

• While it is not  a dreadful thing, it is not something parents wish on their children. Even now, as enlightened as we are, one of the most uncomfortable conversations this time of year for single people in their 30's is the conversations with parents, grandparents about their lack of a SO. 
• Daella was timid and was getting more so the older she got, her parents not only wanted someone to care for her but they wanted to give her purpose and confidence, which a (ready made) family would do.

4 hours ago, Ran said:

Patrice Hightower is not discussed as some sort of strange creature for being a maiden.

We know three things, she was still a maiden, she was suspected of being a witch and suspected of murdering the High Septon.  It's possible that all three are not connected. but its also possible they are as historically unmarried women (often in power) of being witches. 

  Historian Brian Levack in a history of the Baroque period in Europe goes over this common connection Unmarried women of a certain age were often vilified. 

4 hours ago, Ran said:

I can't understand Jaehaerys's insistence to get her married _now_, when it could very well have waited three or five or, hell, ten years.

I suspect they did not think it would be in Daella's best interests to wait three more years. Her issues were being timid and between the ages of 13 and 16 that did not change. 

If the letters sent home are too be believed married life made her happy.  

4 hours ago, Ran said:

 

To me, Jaehaerys's attitude towards her underscores the remark that he wasn't particularly good in dealing with daughters, and generally speaking he seems to be notably misogynistic (of the patronizing variety) despite the examples of his sisters and mother. The way he bulldozes Alysanne just seems like another example of it.

I'd agree with that, but that is not a Jaehaerys issue, it is a societal one. 

 

6 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

You cannot tell me what I am thinking.

I didn't. I was pointing out who your issue was with, the author rather than the character. 

Daella's age of marriage was not unusual.

6 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

 

I pointed out that there was no reason to FORCE her to marry someone.

The vast majority of the noble daughters are made to marry. She was indecisive and timid but there is no real evidence that she did not share the same dream most of her teenage peers had. 

6 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

 

She clearly wasn't the healthiest girl

You are the second person to wrongly bring this up. Before her death the only time we hear of her being sick is the seasickness she had on her visit to Driftmark. 

She was not an unhealthy child. She was, like her mother, petite, the same build. 

Her dying in childbirth was not something that her parents suspected, some of you in this topic are assuming it was and her parents married her regardless.

6 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

 

and if Jaehaerys really cared about her he could have waited with marriage.

Of course he cared for her. 

“Must it come to that? Find her someone. Someone gentle, as she is. A kind man, who will never raise his voice or his hand to her, who will speak to her sweetly and tell her she is precious and protect her"

Does that sound like a father who did not care for his daughter?

6 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

 

It's really funny how you ommited the sentence before:

Why is that funny? 

6 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

 

He didn't even asked him if he wants to get there.

Of course not, I never claimed he did, what I did point out that he did not force him to become a Maester, only to attend the Citadel

6 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Simple calculations give that he surely was already great-grandfather as Lord Desmond was his great-grandson. Torrhen Manderly already had children in 136AC, so he could be assumed to be born around 100AC and his father Desmond 80AC, while Viserra died 87AC.

He's described as still being a fighter, he's unlikely to be over 70.

6 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Intersetingly semi-canonical source Blood of the Dragons gave Desmond's birth date as 66AC, that is before Viserra was even born. 

So yes - If this is true, Theomore had great-grandchildren older than Viserra.

Where is it claimed he was over 70? 

6 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

This match was simply absurd: Theomore was at least fifty years older than her, already had sons, grandsons and great-grandsons, and Manderlys aren't even a great house.

Where in Fire & Blood are these great grandsons mentioned. 

6 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

These are terrible reasons. He was lord of a lesser house,

They are all lesser Houses to the Targs. The Manderlys are a pretty prestigious House, certainly no worse than the Blackwoods or Daynes or many other houses that married Targs. 

 

 

[HexMachina]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If the latter was part of the rationale behind this strange match then the age of Lord Theomore makes him a very poor choice for a husband who was supposed to father children on his young princess. Male fertility drops considerable the older one gets, and one assumes that the Westerosi also don't have a magical cure for impotency (which also becomes an ever greater issue as you approach the grave).

The very ugly thing about that marriage is to have a fifteen-year-old gorgeous woman being stuck with a man who may very likely not live to see her twentieth nameday. Then she would be the dowager lady of White Harbor, sitting around in the background while a step-(great)grandson oder than she herself rules as Lord of White Harbor.

However one tries to spin this, it is just cruel. A younger Lord of White Harbor - one in Viserra's own age or say only 10-20 years her senior - or the heir of such a lord could have been a fine and proper match for a younger princess. But not the old fat guy.

The really ridiculous part there seems to be - and that cuts at the core of his understanding of women there - that he honestly just wanted her to marry any man, regardless of birth or station (he may not have been completely serious there) underlines the fact that he essentially only cared about that his daughter marry.

Perhaps we also have to see Jaehaerys conversation with his mother at end of the Regency in that light. It happened behind closed doors and considering that I'm eager to see the best in people I was willing to entertain the idea that Alyssa having wept there may be a sign that they were on reasonably good terms. But the hints as to Jaehaerys actually thoughts about the Rogar match could have led to a very ugly scene there, with Jaehaerys accusing his own mother of being a whore, spreading the legs for a traitor, etc. And what was the point of sending Alyssa back to Storm's End with Rogar where the man would eventually kill her? Was this his way to punish his mother for her second marriage? Did Alyssa want to go back to this man?

Perhaps this is all not as bad as it might be, but it could be a hint that Jaehaerys was, on a personal level, as vindictive and cruel as reveals himself to be when he and Alysanne clash over Saera (while Saera being a psychopath is clear to us - and in part o Barth - it is not those tendencies Jaehaerys condemns her for).

One sees it with Vaegon, too. And his approach is, for one, a very realistic depiction how nobility and royalty actually deal with their children. They are not parents in any modern sense of the word. They drop their children on servants to raise them and then they treat with them on the basis of information delivered to them in reports from those servants. Jaehaerys never actually has a father-child talk with any of his children, and all his instruction how to deal with Vaegon and Daella are based on information others who are not his children bring to him. 

It is of course too much to insist Jaehaerys should have understand the autistic aspects of Vaegon's personality, but even if we ignored those aspects his approach to what a boy/youth has to be interested in and care about in life betray a very narrow mindset.

Even if we ignore the MUSH birth year for Lord Desmond it is quite clear that Theomore must have been in his 60-70s when the Viserra betrothal was announced. He had already children who were no longer all that young during Alysanne's first visit in the late 50s.

We also hear that Lord Theomore's family was 'famously large' (something we cannot say for the present day Manderlys, by the way), making it a pretty big stretch to assume that the old fat lord was the only male Manderly available at the time.

I mean, Daella had just rejected to very fine and highborn suitors just a couple of years ago. Surely Boremund Baratheon and Tymond Lannister would have been willing to marry Viserra - they may have gladly waited for the first flowering of such a gorgeous bride.

And if Aemma can be married (for apparently no reason Gyldayn thinks important enough to relate to us) as an eleven-year-old to her cousin, then young Viserra could have certainly been betrothed to either Boremund or Tymond in 80 AC.

Small point but the current day Manderly’s could still be very extensive, we just haven’t met them yet. The main branch may be fairly limited (Wyman, Wylis, Wynafryd and Wylla) But we have no idea whether Wyman has brothers or sisters, or cousins, or nieces or nephews. We are introduced to at least one in DwD (whose name escapes me...Bartimus?) and GRRM can easily add any more Manderly cousins he need.

[Ran]

20 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

We are introduced to at least one in DwD (whose name escapes me...Bartimus?) and GRRM can easily add any more Manderly cousins he need.

Marlon Manderly is the cousin, and commands the garrison at White Harbor. But yes, there's no reason to suppose there are no other Manderly cousins. For that matter, Lady Hornwood was another cousin.

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

18 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Aegon (52), Daenerys (53), Aemon (55), Baelon (57), Alyssa (60), Maegelle (62), Vaegon (63), Daelle (64), Saera (67), Viserra (71), Gaemon (73), Vaerion (77), Gael (80)

Perfect, thanks!