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Lord Varys

[SPOILERS] The Dance (unabridged version) including the reign of Viserys I

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21 minutes ago, Maia said:

Knowing what we know now - namely that trueborn children of 2 Valyrian-looking Targaryens/Velaryons _can_ have "common" looks, such as Alysanne and Alyssa, it is not "clear" that they were bastards. There is a lot of room for reasonable doubt - particularly since nothing was said about Breakbones coloring and the only Strong whose coloring was mentioned - Lucamore, was actually blond. Rhaenyra _could_ have been colossally unlucky in that all 3 of the elder kids took after greatgranpa Rodrik Arryn and other Westerosi forbears of her and Laenor. Because while Laenor may have been unable to function with a woman, there was a good reason to resort to a turkey baster or recruit Corlys, given the stakes.

We know that they had "brown hair and eyes, and a pug nose" all three of them , while "Laenor had an aquiline nose, silver-white hair, and purple eyes" Rhaenyra and her father also had Valyrian features , Corlys I'm not sure , Rhaenys had black hair from Baratheon mother .

Also description of Jacaerys at birth  "large, strapping lad, with brown hair, brown eyes, and a pug nose".

Do we know features of her mother or  grandparents from Arryn side I presume?

If so strong (no pun intended) genes to be featured in all three children would result in reappearance later in children by Aegon III in pairing with Velaryon wife, or Viserys line.

For one child maybe. but much larger chance that  simple answer is true and that they are Strongs.

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27 minutes ago, Maia said:

Knowing what we know now - namely that trueborn children of 2 Valyrian-looking Targaryens/Velaryons _can_ have "common" looks, such as Alysanne and Alyssa, it is not "clear" that they were bastards. There is a lot of room for reasonable doubt - particularly since nothing was said about Breakbones coloring and the only Strong whose coloring was mentioned - Lucamore, was actually blond. Rhaenyra _could_ have been colossally unlucky in that all 3 of the elder kids took after greatgranpa Rodrik Arryn and other Westerosi forbears of her and Laenor. Because while Laenor may have been unable to function with a woman, there was a good reason to resort to a turkey baster or recruit Corlys, given the stakes.

Margaret d'Anjou also possibly cheated on her husband Henry VI because of his unwillingness to consumate the marriage. It didn't turn out so well for her. Having bastards and then threateaning anyone who says truth with cutting their tongue or death is really stupid idea  as it validates you in eyes of others as tyrant. 

Martin is quite bad in genetics(thousands of years of blond Lannisters), so it's reasonable to think that in this universe child has to resemble one of their parents. It's rather obvious that Laenor wasn't father of any of Rhaenyra's sons. Harwin Strong also accompanied her msot of the time.

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@Paxter Redwyne

Can you give us any actual textual evidence of the 'Strong story' actually undermining Rhaenyra's claim during the Dance? Were there any people aside avowed enemies of hers actually perpetrating or referencing those calumnies? I don't recall any noblemen, knights, men-at-arms, persons rejecting Rhaenyra's claim or declaring for Aegon II because of the rumors surrounding her sons.

George could have easily enough had Borros Baratheon or any of the other people the Blacks approached early during the war reference 'the Strong story' and declare her unfit to sit the throne for those 'reasons'. Yet nobody seems to be doing that.

Instead, we see the hypocrisy with the Greens there both in the sense that men like Criston Cole don't actually know what they believe - at one point Laenor's sons are not his children and then they are - and in not condemning Aegon the Whoremonger (the first Targaryen king to actually father acknowledged bastards) for his behavior there. If promiscuity affects your ability to rule then this affects men and women alike.

39 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Do we know features of her mother or  grandparents from Arryn side I presume?

No, but we do know now that even incest born Targaryens don't need to have Valyrian looks - Alyssa Targaryen had common blond hair like her mother and only one purple eye (where the green eye comes there is a complete mystery). Alysanne, too, didn't resemble either her mother nor her father who both had strong Valyrian features yet she herself had common blond hair and blue eyes which neither of her parents had (and her Targaryen grandparents neither).

The only Strong we have a description of is Ser Lucamore and he was a blond giant. If Lyonel and Harwin resembled him the Harwin wasn't brown-eyed, brown-haired with a pug nose.

Corlys Velaryon's mother is another unknown - who is to say she wasn't brown-haired, brown-eyed with a pug nose? Or Rhaenyra's grandfather Rodrik Arryn? Aemma Arryn's looks are unknown, too? Did she inherit Valyrian features or did she look more like her father Rodrik or was she a freak like both Alysanne and Alyssa? We don't know.

If Gyldayn had given us a physical description of Ser Harwin Strong things were more obvious. But we don't have that.

Even if Harwin was the father we cannot really say that the boys inherited their looks from him since we don't know how he looked. And one actually assumes that Rhaenyra would have been really in trouble if her sons all had greatly resembled Harwin Strong. In that case, one assumes, there may have been an actual accusation followed by a trial. Instead we just have Alicent spreading this story among her sons and supporters and the grasping nephew of Lord Corlys later using this story as an excuse to justify his own power grab.

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10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@Paxter Redwyne

Can you give us any actual textual evidence of the 'Strong story' actually undermining Rhaenyra's claim during the Dance? Were there any people aside avowed enemies of hers actually perpetrating or referencing those calumnies? I don't recall any noblemen, knights, men-at-arms, persons rejecting Rhaenyra's claim or declaring for Aegon II because of the rumors surrounding her sons.

George could have easily enough had Borros Baratheon or any of the other people the Blacks approached early during the war reference 'the Strong story' and declare her unfit to sit the throne for those 'reasons'. Yet nobody seems to be doing that.

Instead, we see the hypocrisy with the Greens there both in the sense that men like Criston Cole don't actually know what they believe - at one point Laenor's sons are not his children and then they are - and in not condemning Aegon the Whoremonger (the first Targaryen king to actually father acknowledged bastards) for his behavior there. If promiscuity affects your ability to rule then this affects men and women alike.

No, but we do know now that even incest born Targaryens don't need to have Valyrian looks - Alyssa Targaryen had common blond hair like her mother and only one purple eye (where the green eye comes there is a complete mystery). Alysanne, too, didn't resemble either her mother nor her father who both had strong Valyrian features yet she herself had common blond hair and blue eyes which neither of her parents had (and her Targaryen grandparents neither).

The only Strong we have a description of is Ser Lucamore and he was a blond giant. If Lyonel and Harwin resembled him the Harwin wasn't brown-eyed, brown-haired with a pug nose.

Corlys Velaryon's mother is another unknown - who is to say she wasn't brown-haired, brown-eyed with a pug nose? Or Rhaenyra's grandfather Rodrik Arryn? Aemma Arryn's looks are unknown, too? Did she inherit Valyrian features or did she look more like her father Rodrik or was she a freak like both Alysanne and Alyssa? We don't know.

If Gyldayn had given us a physical description of Ser Harwin Strong things were more obvious. But we don't have that.

Even if Harwin was the father we cannot really say that the boys inherited their looks from him since we don't know how he looked. And one actually assumes that Rhaenyra would have been really in trouble if her sons all had greatly resembled Harwin Strong. In that case, one assumes, there may have been an actual accusation followed by a trial. Instead we just have Alicent spreading this story among her sons and supporters and the grasping nephew of Lord Corlys later using this story as an excuse to justify his own power grab.

It is suspicious that Harwin appearance is unknown , though considering Blacks have won , and his death with his father in Harenhall in fire  it is possible most of accounts about him were removed.

Dirty blond hair is not so different from various blonde variants that Targaryen show to have , Rhaenyra's first three children had specific look, in contrast to other two by Daemon who had Valyrian features.

If there were any previous members with those features I am sure Blacks or any maester would mention it.

If any genetic anomaly caused that specific appearance it would show in the line of Viserys II or Aegon III are there any strapping, brown haired, or brown eyed pug nosed Targaryens in the line later?

Edited by Eltharion21

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7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Instead, we see the hypocrisy with the Greens there both in the sense that men like Criston Cole don't actually know what they believe - at one point Laenor's sons are not his children and then they are - and in not condemning Aegon the Whoremonger (the first Targaryen king to actually father acknowledged bastards) for his behavior there. If promiscuity affects your ability to rule then this affects men and women alike.

I don't recall Aegon II trying to name one of his bastards as heir.

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5 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Viserys I wasn't the brightest king ruling the Seven Kingdoms. He was oblivious to schemes of his wife and daughter happening in his plain sight. 

What schemes were there prior to the king's death? Viserys I knew his daughter and second wife didn't get along and that this enmity was transferred to their children, but there are not many schemes the old man should have been aware of - aside from, perhaps, Alicent's scheme to murder him.

7 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

So it's basically known by everyone in the small council that Laenor had absolutely no interest in women. So why on earth did Viserys agree to this marriage option? Because Grand Maester Mellos, the person who should know least of all on the subject, makes a weak analogy between sex and food? Was Mellos part of the Greens? Was he for the marriage in hopes that Rhaenyra would never produce an heir with a husband who was not interested so the crown would go to Alicent's children's line? Why didn't Viserys or anyone else say "well GM Mellos while we appreciate that you'v eaten foods that aren't your favorites from time to time, that's not how things work in the marriage bed." Honestly kind of surprised Rhaenyra never thought to take Ser. Hawin Strong as a second husband in secret. Then revealed it after Viserys died, so the Green couldn't accuse them of being bastards. 

Back then there weren't really all that many Blacks or Greens. That was two years after the tourney - which was later used to coin the names for the two factions - took place. FaB refers to him as a man favoring moderation and peace, meaning he likely wasn't part of either faction.

In fact, it seems to me that the Rhaenyra-Laenor match was, in a sense, an attempt by the Small Council to finally get that Targaryen-Velaryon match Viserys I was supposed to make with Laena after Queen Aemma had died years before. Back in the first half of his reign the greatest threat to King Viserys I and Rhaenyra's succession was not the Hightower queen or her young children but the descendants of Prince Aemon on Driftmark. Aemon's death and the Great Council had created a rift, and it was a very wise decision to close that rift by marriage. This is the reason why people urged Viserys to marry Laena.

Doing the same with Rhaenyra and Laenor would have seen as good - or even a better idea - considering they were much closer in age and their line would then undoubtedly continue the royal bloodline (whereas Laena's children by King Viserys I would likely never sit the throne with Rhaenyra being the chosen heir).

The only problem was Laenor's sexual preferences and, to a lesser degree, one assumes, also Rhaenyra's taste in men. Laenor seems to have been a rather unmanly homosexual, having other interests than participating in tourneys and doing great feats at arms. Rhaenyra's taste in men all point to strong, powerfully built men - Daemon, Criston Cole, Harwin Strong.

Thus the idea that this marriage could be a success on an emotional level was a very bad idea. The way it was made was also stupid - it was a huge mistake there to not include Rhaenyra into the deliberations - Viserys and his council apparently repeated the mistakes made by Alyssa and Rogar back in 49 AC - and essentially force her into this marriage which she clearly did not want.

How it could have worked with as little private information we have on the motivations and desires of the people involved is unclear - we don't know what lasting effects the death of Joffrey Lonmouth had on Laenor's view of this marriage, for instance.

4 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I don't recall Aegon II trying to name one of his bastards as heir.

That wasn't the question I asked you, was it? Do you have any evidence that Rhaenyra's cause during the Dance was harmed by this 'Strong story'?

And Rhaenyra did not have any bastards as such. Bastards are children born out of wedlock. Rhaenyra's son were born in wedlock and were acknowledged by Laenor Velaryon as his trueborn sons. That essentially settles this issue. Neither Alicent Hightower nor her sons nor you can tell us otherwise.

Children born in wedlock don't have to 'prove' that they are legitimate, nor have the mothers or fathers of such children to prove the legitimacy of their children to your or anyone's satisfaction.

You see how difficult it is to actually challenge such a parentage with Cersei's children - and if Cersei had not confessed the truth to Ned or thought and talked about it her own and Jaime's chapters we wouldn't know, either. Yet the children are still not bastards. They were born in wedlock and acknowledged by Robert Baratheon as his children. 'Bastard' is not a category used for 'biological parentage' - it is a derogatory legal term used to brand children born outside of wedlock. A bastard is the child of an unmarried woman. The child of a married woman is trueborn until such a time as this woman is convicted of adultery and whoever decides this case is convinced that the adultery actually extended to the conception of any children the woman had.

Stannis has no evidence that Jaime is their father just as he has no evidence that Patchface is not the true father of Shireen. Yet at this point nobody ever complained that Stannis named this bastard fathered by a lackwit fool his heir, no?

We also see how difficult this kind of thing is with Naerys and Aemon. There is only a trial(-by-combat) there because Aegon IV used a pawn to actually accuse his sister-wife of adultery and allowed a trial to take place. He could have shut that down at once. Instead he was the guy who initiated the entire thing to throw dirt at his two siblings and his own heir in the process of it all.

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21 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

It is suspicious that Harwin appearance is unknown , though considering Blacks have won , and his death with his father in Harenhall in fire  it is possible most of accounts about him were removed.

That doesn't make much sense. Nobody would delete physical descriptions of people from history. George likely very deliberately gave us no description of any of the later Strongs - not Lyonel, not Harwin, and not Larys. And considering how great a role the latter place this is odd, too. If Larys did resemble Rhaenyra's sons this could have been pretty strong evidence, too - although that would have also opened the question whether Larys and not Harwin was the true father ;-).

21 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Dirty blond hair is not so different from various blonde variants that Targaryen show to have , Rhaenyra's first three children had specific look, in contrast to other two by Daemon who had Valyrian features.

A green eye is very odd, though. And blue eyes seem to be pretty uncommon, too. Pretty much all Targaryens have eyes in various purplish shades. And due to the centuries or millennia of incest there shouldn't be a lot of variation there.

21 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

If there were any previous members with those features I am sure Blacks or any maester would mention it.

If any genetic anomaly caused that specific appearance it would show in the line of Viserys II or Aegon III are there any strapping, brown haired, or brown eyed pug nosed Targaryens in the line later?

We don't have descpriptions of all the later Targaryens, especially not the children of Baela and Rhaena and their descendants.

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@Lord Varys We already discussed about Viserys I few times. I don't think we will reach an agreement or any new revelations on this issue, so I'll pass. I guess I just interpret itdifferently than you.

Deviating from the current discussion, did Oakhearts supported Rhaenyra? This quote seems to imply they did or at least stayed neutral.

"In the Reach, Lord Hightower and his ward, Prince Daeron the Daring, continued to win victories, enforcing the submission of the Rowans of Goldengrove, the Oakhearts of Old Oak, and the Lords of the Shield Islands, for none dared face Tessarion, the Blue Queen."

It's a bit bizarre how greens survived so long with only few notable lords in Reach supporting Aegon II, while Rhaenyra had Costaynes, Beesburys, Mullendores, Tarlys, Rowans, Caswells, Merryweathers and Footlys.

In Riverlands they only had Brackens, in Crownlands most of the lords took side of Rhaenyra and Borros slacked off until war was almost over. 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That doesn't make much sense. Nobody would delete physical descriptions of people from history. George likely very deliberately gave us no description of any of the later Strongs - not Lyonel, not Harwin, and not Larys. And considering how great a role the latter place this is odd, too. If Larys did resemble Rhaenyra's sons this could have been pretty strong evidence, too - although that would have also opened the question whether Larys and not Harwin was the true father ;-).

A green eye is very odd, though. And blue eyes seem to be pretty uncommon, too. Pretty much all Targaryens have eyes in various purplish shades. And due to the centuries or millennia of incest there shouldn't be a lot of variation there.

We don't have descpriptions of all the later Targaryens, especially not the children of Baela and Rhaena and their descendants.

 

Having a member of disreputed house as consort  would damage lineage of future Targaryen Kings by stating that their mother had bastards as heirs before them, considering Blacks have won they had more control over writings.

Also Martin describes Lucerys at birth with " Luke had brown eyes and a healthy head of brown hair, rather than the silver-gilt hair of Targaryen princelings, but he was a large and lusty lad"  Lucamore the Lusty obvious hint.

Well we know that they were big men for sure , Lyonel is described as " A big man, burly and balding, " having Harwin Strong being a father makes more sense than various Green conspiracy theories

Baela and Rhaena weren't her children though , it would be better to search line of her children she would certainly give that gene to them, and there is much more information about those Targaryens, unless your plan is to divert from the most obvious answer.

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I think we can ascertain that Rhaenyra must have had real feelings for Harwin, rather than just picking him as a suitable secret father for her heirs. I don't know much about the various European monarchies, but I do remember reading about how Mary Boleyn's husband looked very similar to Henry VIII, which is one reason why scholars still have trouble figuring out which of her children were his and which were the king's. If Rhaenyra were thinking more critically, it would have been wiser to have found a paramour who looked like Laenor (I'm not in disbelief that Corlys would have found her one if she asked). With that in mind, I think it likely that she was thinking with her heart instead of her head, which worked against her.

Originally, at least. In TRP and TPATQ, George seemed to be trying to make both the Blacks and the Greens responsible for the carnage, with Rhaenyra being something of a Cersei precursor who was selfish and only cared about her own desires. Reading Fire and Blood, it felt like George just kind of went, "ah, f**k it," and made Rhaenyra a tragic figure whose life was ruined by sexism and the power-hungry Greens. I actually prefer sympathetic Rhaenyra, but she did feel like a different character to me this time. 

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8 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Originally, at least. In TRP and TPATQ, George seemed to be trying to make both the Blacks and the Greens responsible for the carnage, with Rhaenyra being something of a Cersei precursor who was selfish and only cared about her own desires. Reading Fire and Blood, it felt like George just kind of went, "ah, f**k it," and made Rhaenyra a tragic figure whose life was ruined by sexism and the power-hungry Greens. I actually prefer sympathetic Rhaenyra, but she did feel like a different character to me this time. 

Strangely, he kept parts with Rhaenyra threateaning people with cutting their tongues and speaking about how all of her brothers need to die.

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Just now, Paxter Redwyne said:

Strangely, he kept parts with Rhaenyra threateaning people with cutting their tongues and speaking about how all of her brothers need to die.

Hey, I never said she was perfect ;-) But to me at least, she felt more sympathetic this time around. 

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Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

Hey, I never said she was perfect ;-) But to me at least, she felt more sympathetic this time around. 

Well, given Aegon II and Aemond it's no wonder. It's a shame that Helaena and Daeron had to die though. I am also curious to see what happened to Aemond's son. I hope he will not get Aerion's son Maegor treatment and never be mentioned again.

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1 minute ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Well, given Aegon II and Aemond it's no wonder. It's a shame that Helaena and Daeron had to die though. I am also curious to see what happened to Aemond's son. I hope he will not get Aerion's son Maegor treatment and never be mentioned again.

I'm guessing we'll find out what happened to Aemond's son in F&B pt. 2. Maegor will probably play a role in the Dunk and Egg stories, which would explain why we still know so little about him. 

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@Paxter Redwyne

Didn't the Vances of Atranta also support Aegon II? And the Fossoways, Roxtons, Peakes, etc. too?

That being said I agree GRRM just threw up his hands and made the Greens the obvious villains of the piece rather than keeping it a Evil vs. Evil situation, which I found disappointing. There was room for more sympathetic Greens or at the very least room for sympathetic character development of previously unsympathetic Greens such as Aegon II.

Edited by The Grey Wolf

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1 minute ago, The Grey Wolf said:

@Paxter Redwyne

Didn't the Vances of Atranta also support Aegon II? And the Fossoways, Roxtons, Peakes, etc. too?

I forgot about Vances of Atranta. But in both Riverlands and Reach blacks seemed to have bigger numbers. 

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21 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I forgot about Vances of Atranta. But in both Riverlands and Reach blacks seemed to have bigger numbers. 

More supporters, more ships, more dragons. It's almost as if the Greens are in the underdog position...

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7 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

@Lord Varys We already discussed about Viserys I few times. I don't think we will reach an agreement or any new revelations on this issue, so I'll pass. I guess I just interpret itdifferently than you.

You could still give me and us textual evidence for those schemes you mention. It is one thing that people don't like each other and quite another to talk about schemes.

Who cares about the numbers of houses? The important thing is to win victories in battle and in the Reach the Hightowers crushed all the Black rebels.

Aegon II had the Iron Throne, for a time at least. That is a much greater advantage than having lords in castles raise banners and doing little or nothing at all.

Quote

In Riverlands they only had Brackens, in Crownlands most of the lords took side of Rhaenyra and Borros slacked off until war was almost over. 

Those Crownlanders did nothing, either - and then Criston Cole crushed them one after the other.

6 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think we can ascertain that Rhaenyra must have had real feelings for Harwin, rather than just picking him as a suitable secret father for her heirs. I don't know much about the various European monarchies, but I do remember reading about how Mary Boleyn's husband looked very similar to Henry VIII, which is one reason why scholars still have trouble figuring out which of her children were his and which were the king's. If Rhaenyra were thinking more critically, it would have been wiser to have found a paramour who looked like Laenor (I'm not in disbelief that Corlys would have found her one if she asked). With that in mind, I think it likely that she was thinking with her heart instead of her head, which worked against her.

We really don't know anything about the relationship there, so that's very hard to figure out. But I think it is pretty weird to assume a woman taking a paramour - assuming Harwin was her paramour - actually trying to find one that would increase that her children by that man look more like her/their legal father.

No queen choosing paramours ever did something like that as far as I know. And pretty much no king was actually ever deposed because of rumors and ridiculous stories that the king was not his true father. There was no reason to expect stuff like that - not in Westeros nor in our world.

Quote

Originally, at least. In TRP and TPATQ, George seemed to be trying to make both the Blacks and the Greens responsible for the carnage, with Rhaenyra being something of a Cersei precursor who was selfish and only cared about her own desires. Reading Fire and Blood, it felt like George just kind of went, "ah, f**k it," and made Rhaenyra a tragic figure whose life was ruined by sexism and the power-hungry Greens. I actually prefer sympathetic Rhaenyra, but she did feel like a different character to me this time. 

TRP and TPatQ were incomplete versions of the text we got in FaB. George wrote things the way we have them now years ago. There were plot-relevant changes made to the material (aside from the Gerardys story).

6 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Strangely, he kept parts with Rhaenyra threateaning people with cutting their tongues and speaking about how all of her brothers need to die.

Cutting out tongues is pretty common in Westeros, though. Nor is the execution of traitors uncommon. Turning people into living candles and celebrating the murder of your nephew at the hands of your own brother not so much.

I mean, suggest something: How would you as Rhaenyra have dealt with your half-brothers once you had taken the throne? Would you have felt secure and comfortable with Aemond/Vhagar at the Wall, trusting that the man would stay true to vows you forced him to swear? Or Aemond/Sunfyre and Daeron/Tessarion?

I don't think so.

5 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

More supporters, more ships, more dragons. It's almost as if the Greens are in the underdog position...

The Greens had the entire Realm in the beginning, basically. They staged their coup and then they failed to capitalize on their advantage. Borros Baratheon - who the Blacks thought would side with them - joined the Greens, yes, but they failed to continue that early success. The Arryns and the Starks and their bannermen - as well as the Riverlanders and Reach men declaring for Rhaenyra - were not Blacks as such. They made a choice when the war began - and when Black dragonriders came knocking at their doors.

Otto Hightower seems to have had a strategy to slowly grind Rhaenyra down. His grandson and Criston Cole ruined that.

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11 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

We know that they had "brown hair and eyes, and a pug nose" all three of them , while "Laenor had an aquiline nose, silver-white hair, and purple eyes" Rhaenyra and her father also had Valyrian features , Corlys I'm not sure , Rhaenys had black hair from Baratheon mother .

Also description of Jacaerys at birth  "large, strapping lad, with brown hair, brown eyes, and a pug nose".

Do we know features of her mother or  grandparents from Arryn side I presume?

If so strong (no pun intended) genes to be featured in all three children would result in reappearance later in children by Aegon III in pairing with Velaryon wife, or Viserys line.

For one child maybe. but much larger chance that  simple answer is true and that they are Strongs.

7

I'm pretty sure by now that Laenor and Rhaenyra had an open relationship. Laenor content of the relationship if it meant he could still be prince consort to the heir of the Iron Throne. There is no mention in the Princess and the Queen of Laenor's reaction to Alicent Hightower remark on his three sons not looking like him (I'm not sure about Fire & Blood not at the reign of King Viserys yet, still reading).

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1 hour ago, Tha Shiznit said:

I'm pretty sure by now that Laenor and Rhaenyra had an open relationship. Laenor content of the relationship if it meant he could still be prince consort to the heir of the Iron Throne. There is no mention in the Princess and the Queen of Laenor's reaction to Alicent Hightower remark on his three sons not looking like him (I'm not sure about Fire & Blood not at the reign of King Viserys yet, still reading).

Yes they did seem to get along ,both him and Harwin were present on childbirth, it does seems so also other Vaelryon's don't seem to mind to extent. 

Though it isn't so much issue of cuckolding, more of Rhaenyra putting herself first over her duty as heir to the realm , that and later marrying Daemon without her father's consent , even though he explicitly named her his heir so he would never rule, that  among many other things shows her as horrible potential ruler arguably worse than Aegon II.

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