[SPOILERS] Military matters and population development (including cities)

[Bernie Mac]

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Tullys really don't have the room to expand though;

They do, but it would be at the expense of their neighbouring lords. The Blackwoods and Brackens may have had lands removed on occasion with the Tully's benefiting. 

 

On 12/8/2018 at 1:42 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

But when? Just after conquest?

Not after conquest, they are mentioned pretty far down at that stage, the Pipers are before them. 

On 12/8/2018 at 1:42 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Just before/After Dance? When the maester wrote FaB?

The same paragraph mentions the Mootons wealth and the last two uninspiring Tully lords, which seems to indicate he's talking about the current period. 

By the Dance they had grown to a major Riverland House. We can get a sense of this with the King's progress, Jaehaerys on an early progress of the Riverland's did not bother to visit the Frey's (or the maester did not think it important enough to mention) while Lord Manderly's planned tour only features 4/5 Riverland destinations, one of them being the Twins. 

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

What do you guys make of the tax on crenelations and the privilege to restore or rebuild a castle in relation to the broken tower at Winterfell? We discussed what this means a while back. I'd say this adds more substance to the idea that the Starks couldn't afford/weren't willing to pay the taxes they would have to pay had they wanted to rebuild the tower.

The Riverlords must hate this tax more than anyone considering they suffer the most from civil war. 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Tullys really don't have the room to expand though; Their land was given by Vances and it's location is near the Black supporter Wayfarer Branch. I can, however, see them having more direct vassals after RR; Say for example a minor lord previously was a Darry(or Ryger, Goodbrook etc.) bannermen, after the war with Darry losing power, he is directly sworn to Hoster instead. I can even see Hoster given some of the lands directly held by his rebellious lords.

We hear a lot about the Conningtons basically losing most of their land thanks to their support of the Targaryens during the Rebellion. The same goes for the insanely wealthy Butterwells after the Seceon Blackfyre Rebellion - a house that wasn't really all that great back in the days of Maegor.

All that implies that the Tullys may have reaped a lot of rewards in the years after the Dance. We have no idea whether the Vances are still as powerful in the present as they were back during the Dance, for instance.

The same goes for the Brackens and Blackwoods.

Vice versa, it could also be that later Lords of Harrenhal, Darry, and Maidenpool may have been more powerful than they have been before, considering their relative closeness to the Iron Throne over the years. Somebody must have been awarded the lands the Butterwells lost after Whitewalls, for instance.

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As for Winterfell, I can see the tax as a reason for disrepair; Starks has no need to fear, especially after becoming vassal to IT, so paying a huge amount of money just so they can repair a building which won't be needed is unnecessary. Not once has the Winterfell been besieged after the conquest and likely even some hundreds of years before that  (after Greystark Rebellion). This is no reason to believe Starks are poor, just that they don't need it.

The reason why we think the Starks are not that wealthy is their literally empty treasury which is said to contain some silver but not gold.

I'd say it is a matter of prestige to rebuild a tower as quickly as possible. Your castle should be in the best of shapes, since it is a sign of your power and strength - even Lady Webber knows that.

The relative poorness of House Peake - one of the great houses of the Reach ruling three castles and vast lands - also means that wealth is not really/necessarily generated by vast lands.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

The Riverlords must hate this tax more than anyone considering they suffer the most from civil war. 

The Riverlands are also one of the places where insane wealth is generated just in a couple of generations (e.g. the Butterwells). If there is a region where castles are easily rebuild even with the crenelations tax in place it is there. However, the tax may certainly have contributed to the ruin and decline of certain of the pious houses whose seats were destroyed by Vhagar and Balerion during the Faith Militant Uprising. Some of them - the Wayns, for instance - don't seem to be around on a lordly level anymore.

If Maegor also punished the survivors by taking a lot of their lands they may have been unable to ever regain enough money to rebuild their castles.

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

They do, but it would be at the expense of their neighbouring lords. The Blackwoods and Brackens may have had lands removed on occasion with the Tully's benefiting. 

That's my point. Blackwood and Bracken feud is also a very bad way to expand. 

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

By the Dance they had grown to a major Riverland House. We can get a sense of this with the King's progress, Jaehaerys on an early progress of the Riverland's did not bother to visit the Frey's (or the maester did not think it important enough to mention) while Lord Manderly's planned tour only features 4/5 Riverland destinations, one of them being the Twins. 

So they were powerful during dance but not so during conquest? That's still a thing to go on. If that is the case and they haven't gained most of their power after the dance, I also dread to think upon how powerful would the Hightowers with all their vassals currently be.

[Lord Varys]

18 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

So they were powerful during dance but not so during conquest? That's still a thing to go on. If that is the case and they haven't gained most of their power after the dance, I also dread to think upon how powerful would the Hightowers with all their vassals currently be.

It is essentially confirmed that the number of the Hightowers - them being thrice as powerful as the next powerful vassal of Highgarden - refers to their personal power - bannermen sworn to Oldtown not included. After all, Lord Ormund's original army are just Oldtown men, with no major bannermen of the Hightowers adding their strength to theirs.

That means the Hightowers plus all their bannermen and the vassals of those bannermen combined may command a third or so of the power of the entire Reach. 30,000+ men, presumably, during the main series.

[Corvo the Crow]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is essentially confirmed that the number of the Hightowers - them being thrice as powerful as the next powerful vassal of Highgarden - refers to their personal power - bannermen sworn to Oldtown not included. After all, Lord Ormund's original army are just Oldtown men, with no major bannermen of the Hightowers adding their strength to theirs.

That means the Hightowers plus all their bannermen and the vassals of those bannermen combined may command a third or so of the power of the entire Reach. 30,000+ men, presumably, during the main series.

Are we sure on these two things?

5000 was Oldtown men alone

and

Thrice the power is Oldtown alone.

5000 may very well include loyal bannermen unless told otherwise and though Sam says thousands guard oldtown, we have no idea how many men the next powerful lord commands.

30000 men you propose is so excessive, even some regions seem to field not that many; Hightowers are as rich as the Lannisters we are told, and I wouldn't be surprised if they exceed them in that area but never as powerful as them. Tywin with the entire Westerlands and many mercenaries barely command 35000.

 

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Are we sure on these two things?

5000 was Oldtown men alone

That's my guess - and what @Ran seems to believe, too, when we discussed Ormund's army somewhere above in the thread. Three of the major bannermen of House Hightower - the Mullendores, the Costaynes and the Beesburys - were actually declaring for Rhaenyra, and the Cuys and the Bulwers are not mentioned as part of the Hightower army. Not to mention that the Sunhouse is farther south than Three Towers, and men from there would actually have to pass through the lands of the Costaynes to get to Oldtown.

Levies from Blackcrown could have technically joined Lord Ormund but that's not mentioned, indicating very strongly that he had only his own men from Oldtown and adjacent lands - men sworn directly to Oldtown - in his army, not men from his own bannermen.

7 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

and

Thrice the power is Oldtown alone.

That goes back to Samwell from AFfC, if I remember correctly.

7 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

5000 may very well include loyal bannermen unless told otherwise and though Sam says thousands guard oldtown, we have no idea how many men the next powerful lord commands.

See above. Not very likely in light of all that. Oldtown alone should be able to field 10,000 or more men if they actually pressed any able-bodied men into an army that could possibly learn to fight. That's not what they do, but with the Hightowers being as rich as they are, and there likely being many landed knights and the like around the city directly sworn to it doesn't sound far-fetched that 5,000+ men would be the amount of men a Lord of Oldtown can field quickly and easily before actually calling on his own bannermen for support.

7 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

30000 men you propose is so excessive, even some regions seem to field not that many; Hightowers are as rich as the Lannisters we are told, and I wouldn't be surprised if they exceed them in that area but never as powerful as them. Tywin with the entire Westerlands and many mercenaries barely command 35000.

If you look at the map you'll see that the lands of the Hightowers and their bannermen make up a good portion of the entire Reach. I'd say it could be third or so of its entire geographic mass - we cannot know for sure, of course, and it is difficult to say where the lands of the Hightowers end and those of the Florents begin, but I think that's a pretty good guess.

Also keep in mind that the Kingdom of Oldtown was one of the principal kingdoms which joined together to form the realm of the Gardeners as we know it - and that they kept all their privileges and rights from those ancient days.

[Free Northman Reborn]

The Hightowers being able to raise thrice what any other Tyrell bannermen can raise obviously refers to the full strength of House Hightower, including their own bannermen, just like the strength of any other Reach lord refers to the full strength of that lord, including his own vassals.

How many times must we stress that the strength of a lord includes the strength of his vassals, whether they be great houses, petty lords or landed knights.

Heck, if Gulltown is large enough for more than one lordly House according to George, and if even the Dustins have a vassal living right next to the walls of Barrowton itself then a bunch of Lord Hightowers vassals may well be located within Oldtown itself.

His strength would be the combined strength of all his vassals, both inside and outside Oldtown. Just like Manderly’s strength includes that of his 12 petty lords, hundred landed knights, and the vassals of these petty lords and landed knights, down to the “guy who can raise 5 friends”.

That is how the feudal system works in George’s own words.

As to what that strength is today - I would say around 15-18k.

[Corvinus85]

20 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The Hightowers being able to raise thrice what any other Tyrell bannermen can raise obviously refers to the full strength of House Hightower, including their own bannermen, just like the strength of any other Reach lord refers to the full strength of that lord, including his own vassals.

How many times must we stress that the strength of a lord includes the strength of his vassals, whether they be great houses, petty lords or landed knights.

Heck, if Gulltown is large enough for more than one lordly House according to George, and if even the Dustins have a vassal living right next to the walls of Barrowton itself then a bunch of Lord Hightowers vassals may well be located within Oldtown itself.

His strength would be the combined strength of all his vassals, both inside and outside Oldtown. Just like Manderly’s strength includes that of his 12 petty lords, hundred landed knights, and the vassals of these petty lords and landed knights, down to the “guy who can raise 5 friends”.

That is how the feudal system works in George’s own words.

As to what that strength is today - I would say around 15-18k.

Exactly. The peasants Dunk trains for Ser Eustace Osgrey are sworn to provide military service to their liege lord, per the feudal system. No different from one lord providing military service to another lord.

[Seaserpent]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is essentially confirmed that the number of the Hightowers - them being thrice as powerful as the next powerful vassal of Highgarden - refers to their personal power - bannermen sworn to Oldtown not included. After all, Lord Ormund's original army are just Oldtown men, with no major bannermen of the Hightowers adding their strength to theirs.

That means the Hightowers plus all their bannermen and the vassals of those bannermen combined may command a third or so of the power of the entire Reach. 30,000+ men, presumably, during the main series.

The hightowers can produce an army of at least 5000 in their city alone and if they really are really angry much more people form Oldtown, but 1% of Oldtown at least. With the bannerman and possible more men from the city, at least 10.000 is possible

[Lord Varys]

It makes no sense to pretend that the strength of House Hightower in this case - compared to the other bannermen of House Tyrell - means it strength including their own bannermen. This is especially the case because Houses Costayne, Beesbury, Costayne, Mullendore, etc. are usually treated as any other house of the Reach. They are not especially marked as bannermen of House Hightower but are usually treated as if they are the same as any other house sworn to Highgarden. Nobody suggests, for instance, that Elinor Costayne is a poor choice of bride for King Maegor because she is merely the vassal of a vassal to Highgarden - which likely would be raised if her family was pretty close to the petty lord level.

And the fact that Lord Ormund and Oldtown alone could raise an army of 5,000 men - and Lord Lyonel is later described as the most dangerous Green left, with the greatest chance to continue the war simply because of the city he controls - makes it clear that Ormund Hightower did not exactly assemble the entire strength of Oldtown with his 5,000+ men back then. Else Lord Lyonel's chances to raise other armies (aside from sellswords, of course) would have been pretty much non-existent.

If the Reach as a whole can field 100,000+ men in the main series then House Hightower and their bannermen must control a third or nearly a third of all those men considering that the territory they control makes up roughly a third of the Reach. And we can expect that the bulk of the forces of those men would be directly controlled by the Hightowers, not by their bannermen, considering the ancient privileges of House Hightower going directly back to the days they were kings.

One could wiggle around and speculate without any evidence that, perhaps, the lands around Highgarden or Goldengrove are much more fertile and support much more men than the lands watered by the Honeywine, but there is no reason to do that. Especially since that would mean that other bannermen of House Tyrell - the Rowans, perhaps, the Oakhearts, Tarlys, etc. - would have to be able to field an enormous number of men to get to 100,000+. That way we quickly get at odds with the Hightowers being able to field thrice as many men as the next most powerful vassal of Highgarden.

The fact that Lord Thaddeus Rowan marched against Lord Ormund with a host pretty much as large as Hightower's own also implies as much. Rowan may have assembled his full strength rather than just a decent portion of it, and Rowan doesn't have houses sworn to him that do count as great houses of the Reach. Lord Ormund does - and three of those houses turned against him.

Thing related to this:

Mace Tyrell reserve of 10,000 men back at Highgarden in ACoK may actually be the men Highgarden itself can field. The difference between Houses Tully and Tyrell in relation seems to be that Lord Edmyn was just named lord paramount of the Trident without actually getting more lands and incomes, whereas Harlan Tyrell got Highgarden and all its lands and incomes - lands and incomes that are, most likely, the largest in the entire Reach. That's the basis of Tyrell power. 

[Corvo the Crow]

@Lord Varys

The Hightowers are the strongest Vassal in the realm, I am not disputing that, Strongest even than most if not all LPs without their major bannermen even.

Assuming that 5000 men is Oldtown men -emphasis on Oldtown- alone, and I'd say you somewhat convinced me on that, 1000 knights and 4000 men-at-arms and archers near 200 years back is considerably more powerful than Tywin's 500 knights and 3000 men-at-arms and archers some 40 years ago. But as said, emphasis on Oldtown since Oldtown itself may have many smaller bannermen, as we have seen with Lannisport and Duskendale both being rich in cadets  and Gulltown having at least 3 houses of some power. Jon Roxton who we see from the very start even before defeated lords are made to join the Great Heathen army, they are  obviously a Hightower bannermen and since you made good point on men outside Oldtown would not be able to cross the hostile lands, I believe they would be from the city itself.

 

But let's talk numbers; Unwin with 3 castles to his house alone with who knows how many vassals has just 1000 men. How many men would each of these Hightower bannermen have considering this?

I can see Hightowers with all their vassals having 20000 men or maybe a bit more but a third of the entire Reach is a bit of a stretch I think.

There's also this; What kind of men are we talking about?

Tywin had a host of about 35000 before the split, we all seem to agree, but both of the hosts had considerable amounts of mercenaries and Tywin's part itself had many "dregs of Lannispot" , poorly trained and equipped in just the 1000 men part and these are all ahorse, who knows how many of them are there in the foot part. I believe Jaime's part also had many more of these whereas the 3500 of his youth or 5000 Oldtown men are trained and equipped properly.

Given the above, I believe the West's strength itself would be perhaps slightly above 25000 without the mercenaries or the arrow fodders. Taking 8000 to battle in dance leaving it undefended would be further proof of it; I believe 22000 men Loren gathered was only possible with depleted garrisons and levying even the "dregs of Lannispot" type of men and 8000 didn't leave west bereft of men but took a good portion of the professionals and tied perhaps as many to the garrisons.

 

Also one oddness I want to point out about the North is, it has a considerable amount of knight-equivalents; we see the evidence of this in not Just Robb's army having too many, but elsewhere as well, even the masterly Tallharts have beneath them a layer of petty nobility that are still wealthy enough to be able to equip even their 14 year old sons with proper knightly gear and there are enough of these sons to form a small company

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

But let's talk numbers; Unwin with 3 castles to his house alone with who knows how many vassals has just 1000 men. 

Unwin brings an army of 1,500 to the (unofficial) Grand Council of 136. There is zero indication in the books that this is his full strength. 

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Tywin had a host of about 35000 before the split, we all seem to agree, but both of the hosts had considerable amounts of mercenaries

I would not call a few hundred considerable. I'd also point out that every army has mercenaries, Robb's host had them

 This host her son had assembled was not a standing army such as the Free Cities were accustomed to maintain, nor a force of guardsmen paid in coin. Most of them were smallfolk: crofters, fieldhands, fishermen, sheepherders, the sons of innkeeps and traders and tanners, leavened with a smattering of sellswords and freeriders hungry for plunder. 

This will also be true of the Hightowers. 

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and Tywin's part itself had many "dregs of Lannispot" ,

They did?

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=dregs

Tywin's force is split into four:

• Kevan's 10,000 in the centre of 300 heavy horse, mixed infantry force including pikemen, archers, axemen, swordsmen, and spearmen
• Marbrand's 4,000 on the right, all knights and heavy lancers
• Tywin's 5k reserve, half mounted half on foot
• the 1,000 in the Van, a mixed bag, sellswords, farmhands, smallfolk, Gregor's men, and Tyrion's clansmen. 

 

 

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Given the above, I believe the West's strength itself would be perhaps slightly above 25000 without the mercenaries or the arrow fodders.

Isn't this needlessly over complicating things? Every army has such men, though I think you are exaggerating the number here.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Unwin brings an army of 1,500 to the (unofficial) 

Right, my bad. 100 knights, 900 men-at-arms and 500 mercenaries, was it?

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I would not call a few hundred considerable. I'd also point out that every army has mercenaries, Robb's host had them

And where do we learn that they number in few hundreds? Or Robb would have as many mercenaries as Tywin? 

We get two looks on the components of the levies Robb's vassals brought; Karstarks with near 2000 foot and 300 heavy lancers and Manderly with 1500 men, some 20 knights and as many squires and 200 other horsemen, incuding mercenaries among a mix of swords, maces and such and the rest of the men spears, pikes, tridents.

We also know Bronn, under Tyrion's orders has gathered 800 mercenaries. 

 

So you propose that Tywin Goldshitting Lannister, richest men to ever take a shit in Westeros had just a few hundred mercenaries in his 35000 force which he took his time to gather whereas Unwin with his 1500 had 500 of them and his son Tyrion managed to gather 800 with fewer resources in a city a step away from being besieged? Wow man! Are you really serious? 

And how many would Robb have do you propose when even his richest bannermen doesn't even have a hundred?

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

They did?

 

The 1000 part has enough of them to take notice and these are men on horses as I said in the post,I remind you, most of these "dregs" wouldn't have a horse so we don't know how many of them would be among the foot soldiers or even in Jaime's camp.

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Isn't this needlessly over complicating things? Every army has such men, though I think you are exaggerating the number here.

Yet as I recall, only time we see such men is in Tyrion's flank and with Freys, not with the host going  with Robb or the rank on rank of mailed pikemen Roose took, but the part sent to help Roose secure his LP.

[Lord Varys]

Guys, keep in mind that Ormund didn't have just 5,000 men in total. He supposedly had 1,000 knights, 1,000 archers, 3,000 men-at-arms, and uncounted thousands of camp followers, sellswords, freeriders, and rabble, meaning that his army was much larger than just 5,000 men even at this early stage in his campaign. While there may have been some non-Westerosi sellswords among them, the freeriders and the rabble were likely Westerosi men. We cannot really attached a number to that original Hightower Dance army. I'd say it may have been somewhere between 8,000-10,000 men.

As for the West, we have, at this point, no reason to believe that even Tywin raised his full strength for the Riverlands campaign not even later when Stafford raised the other host. Think about how many actual Lannisters of Casterly Rock and Lannisport actually stayed back in the West, perhaps mindful of the chances that the Ironborn would play a Dalton Greyjoy in Tywin's absence. Tywin's coastlines may be much better defended than they were during the Dance or the Greyjoy Rebellion back in the day.

Lord Ormund also had a higher motivation to march to war during the Dance considering his kinship with Otto, Alicent, and Aegon II than Tywin was when he went to war to punish the Riverlands and free his son. Tywin's campaign only became a succession struggle after the sudden death of King Robert.

It is quite clear in AFfC and ADwD that the West is far from spent. They can rise more armies. That they do not right now is due to a lack of direct Lannister leadership in the West, with all the main players - Cersei, Kevan, Jaime, even Daven - being either at court or in the Riverlands.

In that sense, chances are not that bad that more than a decent chunk of the cavalry the West can field is still back home in the West.

And as for Lord Jason's army - as I said before I'm not sure we can take the low numbers there seriously. We just get the numbers of knights (1,000) and archers and men-at-arms combined (seven times as many as there were knights). The latter just seemed to be a guess to me. That doesn't mention lighter cavalry, freeriders, rabble, etc. It is also not a number that's supported by a cited source - we don't have Munkun and his informed interviewees backing this number.

Do you guys realize how often there are a thousand knights running around in the Dance, by the way? Both Ormund and Jason (and I'm sure others, too) are running around with a thousand knights. That can indicate both generous rounding as well as just an invented fantasy number. After all, Munkun wrote his books years later, and if his interviewees were mainly relating their memories they may not have been all that good in relation to actual numbers, with various interviewees giving greatly different accounts on such things - as people are prone to do. A great scholar only assessing shitty numbers won't exactly get to good numbers in the end...

[Ran]

Munkun also used contemporary records, such as those of stewards, the kind of people who would be noting down things like how many people had to be fed, how many horses needed stabling, etc. He's going to have pretty accurate numbers, except in cases of bad organization such as Hightower's initial disaster of a campaign.

[Free Northman Reborn]

So what exactly is the latest argument about? 

The Hightowers with all their strength can raise thrice what any other Reach lord with all his strength can raise. That includes vassals, in both cases.

Simple really. No cause for argument.

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

Munkun also used contemporary records, such as those of stewards, the kind of people who would be noting down things like how many people had to be fed, how many horses needed stabling, etc. He's going to have pretty accurate numbers, except in cases of bad organization such as Hightower's initial disaster of a campaign.

That may be. The important point I made above, however, is that Munkun is simply not cited as source for the size of Lord Jason's army. Instead, the number is given in context of the deliberations of the Green council, which makes it not unlikely that the source for this is either Eustace or Orwyle (with the latter being present at the council session) assuming there is a good source for this at all.

You got me that when there are conflicting numbers we should trust Munkun more than the others due to his methodology, but we cannot just attribute a number to Munkun when Gyldayn doesn't refer to him as a source in a specific case, can we?

By the way - what do make of the Byron Swann thing now? If Munkun had drawn from Orwyle naming Syrax as the dragon it would have made sense, but since he apparently says the man wanted to slay Vhagar in the Riverlands chances are not that bad that he got that information from some of his interviewees, no? And an attempt on the queen's own dragon within the Red Keep itself should be much better attested than it is - both Orwyle, Eustace, and Mushroom should have heard about it (eventually), considering they were all in KL at the time.

[direpupy]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

By the way - what do make of the Byron Swann thing now? If Munkun had drawn from Orwyle naming Syrax as the dragon it would have made sense, but since he apparently says the man wanted to slay Vhagar in the Riverlands chances are not that bad that he got that information from some of his interviewees, no? And an attempt on the queen's own dragon within the Red Keep itself should be much better attested than it is - both Orwyle, Eustace, and Mushroom should have heard about it (eventually), considering they were all in KL at the time.

It has turned in to a three way thing now.

Munkun drawing on Orwyle, who was in a dungeon at the time which is why Gyldain questions the reliability says it was Vhagar.

Mushroom saying it was Syrax and he was actually at the red keep at the time, but how reliable is Mushroom? He is however backed up by the letter Byron's squire who saw the whole thing sent to Byron's daughter about the whole thing, he to says it was Syrax

And then there is septon Eustace who does not mention it in his chronicle but instead says in a letter that it was Sunfyre, this Gyldain thinks off as a mistake because Sunfyre's whereabouts where unknow at the time.

In they end even Gyldain just does not bother to try and figure out which one it was, which to me is a clear indication that GRRM does not want us to know for sure which one it was.

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

So what exactly is the latest argument about? 

The Hightowers with all their strength can raise thrice what any other Reach lord with all his strength can raise. That includes vassals, in both cases.

Simple really. No cause for argument.

That and also mercenaries now I guess.

 

Also now that I look at it, my last post seems to lack a bit in respect. Apoligies Bernie if it was offensive.

[lysmonger]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

Munkun also used contemporary records, such as those of stewards, the kind of people who would be noting down things like how many people had to be fed, how many horses needed stabling, etc. He's going to have pretty accurate numbers, except in cases of bad organization such as Hightower's initial disaster of a campaign.

Seems as if Alicent never really told them she was going to take the crown.