[SPOILERS] Military matters and population development (including cities)

[Corvo the Crow]

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I am quite perplexed how this thread has evolved to this point. Every house’s strength is a reference to what they can raise through all the vassals sworn to them. There is no reason to make the Hightowers an exception to this rule.

When the Hightowers are said to be able to raise 3 times any other Reach lord’s strength, that is a reference to what they can raise through all their vassals. Don’t know why anyone would dispute that.

I was of a mind with you but I am not so sure now; During dance they have raised 5000 men without most if not all of their major bannermen and still had many thousands behind guarding the city and their castle. What we know of Reachmen lords? Florents 200 years later has 2000 men and Tarlys during vulture hunt (may) had 2500. I think it’s obvious that Hightowers(with all vassals) had more than 7500 then and have more than 6000 now.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I am quite perplexed how this thread has evolved to this point. Every house’s strength is a reference to what they can raise through all the vassals sworn to them. There is no reason to make the Hightowers an exception to this rule.

When the Hightowers are said to be able to raise 3 times any other Reach lord’s strength, that is a reference to what they can raise through all their vassals. Don’t know why anyone would dispute that.

That is clearly wrong considering that we learn that the Tullys can raise less men than a significant number of their own bannermen. How can this be if all the Riverlanders have to always numbered among the Tully men by default?

Can you give us any evidence where it is clearly marked that the strength of house includes all the vassals and bannermen of that house? We don't even know whether Stannis' famous quote about the Florents refers to the Florents + bannermen or only the Florents as a house. I'd say it is the latter considering that nobody can assume that the Florent bannermen would follow the lead of their lieges in a situation as convoluted as this. Their own men, yes, but their vassals' men might side with House Tyrell/Renly.

5 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

One thing; when we are told the great southron host is over 20000 strong(note this,  not near 30000 but over 20000) how many battles it had seen so far? We can  do some backwards calculation; Fish feed with 2000 dead was the bloodiest battle we were told so no battle came near that in the dead count and we know that Hightowers started with 5000 men plus mercenaries and rabble on top of that. Not only can we get the strengths, or at least combined strengths, of some lords in Dance, but also what was Oldown men’s proportion. 

It was not just 5,000. It was 5,000 + countless thousands of various other types of men. Which, if taken seriously, means 8,000-10,000 men in my opinion. Perhaps 1,000 less, but it is likely not just 6,000 or 7,000. If we care about the numbers given.

Ormund later moves against the hosts of the various other Black rebels in the Reach, forcing many of them to add their strength to his. That seems to also extend to castles and towns and keeps that are on his route to KL, be they involved in the war or not. He is also joined by declared Green loyalists like Unwin Peake and his host.

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So say, if it was just one battle, these men collected would make perhaps around 25000 and men from Oldtown would be more than a fifth of it, perhaps as many as a third.

It is difficult to say how many of the original men deserted when things were looking bad for Ormund. The fact that there are none of the five Hightower bannermen among the leadership of the Hightower army or the Caltrops (as far as I recall right now) makes it not very likely that any of them joined Ormund's army, by the way. Not by force and not voluntarily. Those who did not take up arms against him just sat out the war.

Else chances wouldn't have been bad that some such would have tried to claim command of the army due to this originally being a Hightower army - just as various non-Lannister great lords of the West commanded Jason's host after his death.

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One other thing, though it doesn’t mean much, it is a thing to think on, as Varys pointed out, Oldtown’s principal bannermen act on their own so when Hightower’s stayed back in field of fire, vassals probably didn’t. In fof Lannister to Gardener strength is 2/3 whereas when Lannisters brought 300 retainers, Tyrells brought 500; 3/5. So perhaps that %10 difference is representing Hightowers(Oldtown)

They acted on their own during the Dance, and some of them also seemed to have supported Renly (although likely not with their full strength) - which also may mean that the great power the Hightowers still have in the main series is due to their own strength, not the strength in combination with their bannermen - but this doesn't mean they did not follow Oldtown's lead during the Conquest. Keep in mind that it was both Lord Manfred and the High Septon saying that Oldtown should stay out of the war.

But we don't really know.

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So perhaps Oldtown alone, without the outlying vassals, make a tenth of the power of Reach.

I'd say it should be a little bit more. Keep in mind that Oldtown has five great houses sworn to the city. If any of them can raise as little as 2,000 men on their own (like the Florents supposedly can) then this would already make 10,000 men. And I'd honestly be surprised if the Beesburys and Costaynes could raise only 2,000 men. So I think the bannermen could perhaps field as many as 15,000 men together. With Oldtown and Hightower lands perhaps, too, having the potential to raise 15,000 by themselves.

Keep in mind that the Reach in total is supposed to field those 100,000+ men, and we don't exactly have a 100 houses who can all field about 1,000 men to get there. Some of the houses in the Reach we know of would be much weaker - the likes of the Osgreys and Inchfields, etc. - whereas we already have a pretty good grasp on the really powerful lords in the Reach - Hightower, Redwyne Rowan, Oakheart, followed by Tarly, Peake, etc.

The bannermen of House Hightower we know as such are not among the petty lords. They are powerful lords in their own right. 

The Hightowers are really a special case - a great house sworn to another great house with just as powerful bannermen as other great houses have. This doesn't seem to be the case for the Manderlys, Royces, Reynes, etc. They all also have powerful vassals, to be sure, but not as powerful vassals as the Hightowers, nor are those vassals seen to be on equal footing with other houses sworn directly to a great house.

The Freys are certainly very powerful, but they don't have as powerful bannermen as the Costaynes or the Beesburys.

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One final note, Renly’s 80000+10000 wasn’t the full power of the Reach(and whatever men from SL) his host was growing Strong as he marched on and we know the Reach can raisr at leasy another 30000 in a month. I have always assumed the 10000 with mace is mostly if not entirely Hightower(Oldtown) (foot)men given the absence of their, the most powerful bannermen’s, banner during Cat’s visit but after BW getting rewarded all the same.

From what we learn the Hightowers stayed completely out of the War of the Five Kings. There was a Hightower banner there, but that can easily be explained by some cousin hanging out there with a token force. Or perhaps even by the fact that Mace's boys are all half-Hightower - that alone could be reason enough to explain why they got rewarded.

The Tyrells of our day and age are finally accepted and part of the elite of the Reach. No Redwyne or Hightower is calling them dolts as brazenly as Lord Manfryd did in FaB - and he was not just referring to Lord Bertrand being a sot there.

The Tyrells have done it. They are heavily intermarried with the greatest houses in the Reach which previously seemed to shun them. And it is very likely a remarkably recent development that an uncle of Lord Tyrell can serve as Lord Commander of the City Watch of Oldtown...

[Free Northman Reborn]

This is getting ridiculous. 

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd say it should be a little bit more. Keep in mind that Oldtown has five great houses sworn to the city. If any of them can raise as little as 2,000 men on their own 

This I’d disagree with, even hundreds are enough to be considered a great house; Velaryon, Celtigar and very likely Tarth are all evidence towards it. I highly doubt the knightly Fossoways can raise a thousand as well.

Hightowers are also not unique in having powerful vassals below them; Royces have Coldwaters who were kings and I think Yronwoods are still the nominal lord of Tolands and Jordaynes since Tolands are part of Lord Yronwood’s army in TWOW. Wyl’s relation is also unclear. Wells are also Yronwood bannermen.

Hightowers are, however, unique in being a vassal with both a city and many great houses sworn to them. Neither the Royces nor the Yronwoods have a city and while the Manderlys and Graftons do have cities, they don’t have powerful vassals. Reynes and Freys have neither.

As a side note, In relative power to the region as a whole, I think the Yronwoods are the most powerful, followed by Royces and only then the Hightowers. Freys, if they even were the most powerful before agot, would be at the bottom as there are plenty of power houses in RL, the single region where many of the houses each took the mantle of the king of the region(or  most of it)

 

[Corvinus85]

12 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

As a side note, In relative power to the region as a whole, I think the Yronwoods are the most powerful, followed by Royces and only then the Hightowers. Freys, if they even were the most powerful before agot, would be at the bottom as there are plenty of power houses in RL, the single region where many of the houses each took the mantle of the king of the region(or  most of it)

Perhaps the Harlaws would be up here, too. They control the entire island of Harlaw, which is the most populous of the Iron Islands.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 minute ago, Corvinus said:

Perhaps the Harlaws would be up here, too. They control the entire island of Harlaw, which is the most populous of the Iron Islands.

Absolutely! Perhaps even more so than Yronwoods, I forgot about them entirely as I was thinking the mainlanders; Think of this, they may not be the house with the most cadets, we have no knowledge of that -Royces, Arryns, Lannisters and Vances are major contenders from what we see- but they are the house with the most number of Cadets with enough power to be noticable in their region.

[Lord Varys]

36 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

This I’d disagree with, even hundreds are enough to be considered a great house; Velaryon, Celtigar and very likely Tarth are all evidence towards it. I highly doubt the knightly Fossoways can raise a thousand as well.

Those are all those strange island houses that all somehow seem to be much stronger than others, not to mention the prestige that came for the Velaryons and Celtigars due to their Valyrian roots and their kinship to House Targaryen (not to mention their vast wealth).

I noted the prominence of House Tarth in FaB but I don't think they were ever described as a great house in any meaningful sense.

The Fossoways seem to have risen along with the Tyrells. They intermarried in the 1st century and they continue to do this in the 3rd century. I imagine their holdings increased during the centuries of Tyrell rule while those of other greater houses in the Reach (Florent, Peake, etc.) declined.

36 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Hightowers are also not unique in having powerful vassals below them; Royces have Coldwaters who were kings and I think Yronwoods are still the nominal lord of Tolands and Jordaynes since Tolands are part of Lord Yronwood’s army in TWOW. Wyl’s relation is also unclear. Wells are also Yronwood bannermen.

The speculation about the Yronwoods here is without any real foundation. Yes, they were very powerful back before the Rhoynar came, and they are still a powerful house. But there is no reason to believe the Princes of Dorne allowed them to remain the overlords over a significant part of Dorne whose lords and ladies could instead just do homage to Sunspear directly. Nymeria conquered all Dorne, but House Hightower basically just married House Gardener to become part of the Reach. They bent the knee but they had to give up none of their ancient privileges. They are still the kings of Oldtown and the lands and houses they always ruled. The only difference is that they no longer call themselves kings.

And since the Targaryens destroyed the Gardeners the Hightowers are the unquestioned greatest and most noble house of the Reach. The Tyrells may now have more raw power and wealth by now, but they will never acquire the same standing as the Hightowers due to their modest roots.

The fact that Prince Doran chose some of his lords to lead his two armies in the passes doesn't mean that said that (m)any houses in those armies actually sworn to those commanding lords.

The fact that the Yronwoods do not exactly shine when the Wyls take on the Stormlander during the First Dornish War also implies they do not really control those guys up there.

Of the Royces we know that they way back to power was a long and stony one after Artys Arryn had conquered the Vale. It is the Vale of Arryn, not the Vale of Royce - indicating that the Arryns truly control most of the land in the Vale. And in fact that should be the case for most of former royal houses and those who succeeded them in their holdings - the Lannisters, Arryns, Tyrells, and Baratheons should control the largest lands in their domains.

This could also help explain why Lysa could keep the Vale as effectively in line as she did.

The power those houses had over their kingdoms for thousands of years must have had a strong foundation. Else they would have been toppled millennia ago.

36 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Hightowers are, however, unique in being a vassal with both a city and many great houses sworn to them. Neither the Royces nor the Yronwoods have a city and while the Manderlys and Graftons do have cities, they don’t have powerful vassals. Reynes and Freys have neither.

How many towns the Freys, Reynes, or the Royces have is unclear, though. Just as we don't know how many towns the Hightowers and their principal bannermen control. Oldtown wouldn't be the only large settlement along the Honeywine or the surrounding lands. We don't even know whether the seats of the five principal bannermen are just castles or castles plus town(s), like Bitterbridge and Tumbleton. The story of Maelor and Rickard Thorne as well as the details about Tumbleton battles makes it very clear that those were not exactly small towns.

36 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

As a side note, In relative power to the region as a whole, I think the Yronwoods are the most powerful, followed by Royces and only then the Hightowers. Freys, if they even were the most powerful before agot, would be at the bottom as there are plenty of power houses in RL, the single region where many of the houses each took the mantle of the king of the region(or  most of it)

See above for the Yronwoods. They have a lot of prestige still but we don't know how large their lands are or how many men they can field.

The Royces, I think, are somewhat overestimated considering they are as prominent as they are. The crucial reason why the Lords Declarant can field as many men as they are is that Littlefinger is an outsider pretty much nobody likes. If Lord Arryn was a man grown these guys may have been able to field only half that number, since then very few people would look for Bronze Yohn as a better regent for young Lord Robert.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The fact that Prince Doran chose some of his lords to lead his two armies in the passes doesn't mean that said that (m)any houses in those armies actually sworn to those commanding lords.

No;

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"I know better. You need not even leave your chair. Let me avenge my father. You have a host in the Prince's Pass. Lord Yronwoodhas another in the Boneway.

He didn’t choose one lord to lead an army and another the other. One of those armies belong to the Yronwood. We learn who commands which later on, Fowler one and Yronwood the other, but one army, one commanded by Yronwood, is regarded as Yronwood’s army, while the other, one commanded by Fowler, is as Doran’s. 

[Lord of Oldstones]

Looking at the map of the Reach,Hightowers probably rule 1/5 of Reach.Hightowers are possibly the largest landholder south of the neck.Beesbury and Bulwer were founded by sons of Garth and rest of their 3 bannerman are no less prominent.However, in main series we have these great houses marrying lesser Tyrells.Probably they all have lost prominence.Costaynes by supporting blackfyre while others dunno. 
Btw are Blackbars Hightower vassal? I feel like Ambrose are their vassals too.  

Also this quote:

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Lady Jennis Templeton would wed Lord Mullendore of Uplands, whilst Lady Prunella Celtigar was joined in marriage to Uther Peake, Lord of Starpike, Lord of Dunstonbury, and Lord of Whitegrove. Both were considered exceptional matches for the ladies in question, and a triumph for the queen.

With this quote it seems pretty clear that lordly hightower bannermen are pretty  powerful in their own right.

PS those chinless Celtigar girls hit jackpot lolz one got Peake another a Grafton.

Smallwoods are vassal of Vances in main series however,they are referred as if they're direct vassals to Tullys in FAB.They're probably like those prominent Royce vassals.Come to think that undivided Vances might well have been undisputed no 1 house of Trident.But we dont know when Vances split.I always thought Mallisters were as powerful as the Blackwoods but they're only referred as having great lineage .As per MUSH Blackwood Lords marry Lannister,Baratheon & Stark in successive generation.Its pretty remarkable if this does comes to pass.Then we have Blackwoods mentioned along with Hightowers as a very special houses where Osgrey maids married,more special than  the Tarbecks,Swanns & Florents hmm...

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

No;

He didn’t choose one lord to lead an army and another the other. One of those armies belong to the Yronwood. We learn who commands which later on, Fowler one and Yronwood the other, but one army, one commanded by Yronwood, is regarded as Yronwood’s army, while the other, one commanded by Fowler, is as Doran’s. 

But this doesn't mean all the men in that army are men sworn to Yronwood (or to lords who are sworn to Yronwood).

Lord Anders still styles himself/is still styled the Warden of the Stone Way, indicating that the Yronwoods can indeed claim command over all the Dornish armies in the region, but that doesn't necessarily reflect a feudal relation.

7 hours ago, Lordth said:

Looking at the map of the Reach,Hightowers probably rule 1/5 of Reach.Hightowers are possibly the largest landholder south of the neck.Beesbury and Bulwer were founded by sons of Garth and rest of their 3 bannerman are no less prominent.However, in main series we have these great houses marrying lesser Tyrells.Probably they all have lost prominence.Costaynes by supporting blackfyre while others dunno. 
Btw are Blackbars Hightower vassal? I feel like Ambrose are their vassals too.

The Bulwers still feature as a pretty prominent house indicated by Alysanne Bulwer's presence among Margaery's ladies. She is one of her cousins.

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Also this quote:

With this quote it seems pretty clear that lordly hightower bannermen are pretty  powerful in their own right.

Yeah, that's one of the pretty big hints. Those houses are not among the weaker/less powerful Reach houses.

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Lord Anders still styles himself/is still styled the Warden of the Stone Way, indicating that the Yronwoods can indeed claim command over all the Dornish armies in the region, but that doesn't necessarily reflect a feudal relation.

And Fowler is Warden of Prince Pass, and also commands that army, yet these armies aren’t Yronwood’s and Fowler’s. They are. Yronwood’s and Doran’s.

 

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

And Fowler is Warden of Prince Pass, and also commands that army, yet these armies aren’t Yronwood’s and Fowler’s. They are. Yronwood’s and Doran’s.

Well, that's pretty clear just imprecise speech. Doran is not there. But both armies are his. He is the Prince of Dorne.

At best that's evidence that Obara thinks Lord Anders is a pretty important guy - which was never in doubt. Note that she also thinks she and Nymeria can take command of both those armies.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

At best that's evidence that Obara thinks Lord Anders is a pretty important guy - which was never in doubt. Note that she also thinks she and Nymeria can take command of both those armies.

Yes she can. As said, Fowler command’s “Doran’s” host. Doran may very well appoint another commander. Same is true for Yronwood’s host commanded bu him as well, as Doran is his overlord too but yet it is regarded as Yronwood’s host where as the other is not thought to be as Fowler’s. I think this is pretty clearly painting the power of Yronwood.

Are Freys not bannermen to Edmure? Yet their 4000 who weren’t with Edmure and other vassals are treated as seperate. The army at the pass is also treated as Vance’s and Piper’s, not just Vance’s or Piper’s, one obviously isn’t more powerful than the other to a great degree.

Now, Yronwood’s may have the like of Santagars who are clearly sworn to Doran but are locatrd closer to Boneway. That would be an even greater implication of Yronwood’s Relative power, even with men not sworn to him in the army he is so powerful in that army it is still considered his army while Fowlers don’t make up a considerably more powerful portion of the army they are part of with other vassals of Doran, so that army is Doran’s.

[Ran]

Yronwood is the Warden of the Stone Way. Fowler is Warden of the Prince's Pass.

Yronwood's army is called at Doran's behest, part of the deal with Tyrion. So regardless of the language around "whose" army it is, it is a royal army being lead by the Prince's warden. Yronwood and his vassals no doubt make a large proportion of it, as would be expected from them, but that other houses who are not vassals of the Yronwoods are part of it is no surprise because it's a royal host raised at the command of the Martells.

The same for Fowler's host.

The difference in language, then, is not in my mind an indicator of the Yronwoods being more vastly powerful, but rather political language related to the fraught relationships between the Yronwoods and Martells. They are more standoffish with one another, for historical reasons, and the Martells provide Lord Yronwood the courtesy of being spoken of as having a greater degree of independence than they necessarily actually do. It's a bit of social nicety, a way to keep certain pretenses for a prickly, proud family that refuses to let go of the fact that they were once kings, the most powerful in Dorne.

Doubtless because, if they get annoyed enough, they are very able to rebelling and causing a lot of problems, as they have done in the past.

A good assessment of how strong they are _really_, when not leading a royal host, is that Arianne believed that if Dorne rose up for Myrcella but the Yronwoods held out for Quentyn, they would stand "alone" and would not be a significant threat. They are a strong house, but they don't outweigh the rest of Dorne, or even half of it.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

A good assessment of how strong they are _really_, when not leading a royal host, is that Arianne believed that if Dorne rose up for Myrcella but the Yronwoods held out for Quentyn, they would stand "alone" and would not be a significant threat. They are a strong house, but they don't outweigh the rest of Dorne, or even half of it.

And Lords Declarent is nothing LF is capable of matching so do they control over half the Vale?

But back to Yronwood’s; They aren’t controlling 1/2 of Dorne’s power and can’t hope to face off all the rest but that itself doesn’t mean much; if they control say, 1/3, well they are overly powerful but outnumbered 2:1 that they won’t be able to defeat the rest. even having as big as 2/5 they would be outnumbered 3:2. Tywin defeats Roose with a force just outnembering him 5:4. Tywin had many times the cavalry, true but you can look at the infantry revolution in our own world’s history to see that doesn’t mean too much with Northern infantry both holding High ground on rough terrain, unsuitable for cavalry charges and has pikes so even 5:4 outnumbering seems to be enough to win and perhaps a bit of luck to have the wall break off(even Tywin didn’t expect it)

[Three-Fingered Pete]

On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 11:40 AM, Lord Varys said:

The only men prepared for war would be knights, squires - who basically play at war their entire lives - and men who trained at arms and then continued to serve in a soldierly profession throughout their lives. And most of those men seem to be men in service or lords or knights.

After all, Westeros doesn't have that many wars anymore. A semi-professional not-knight/squire warrior would have little opportunity to continue to hone his skills after he ended up participating in one of the rare campaigns that happened to take place during his lifetime...

 

Reading this discussion, I was wondering if someone was going to bring this up.

In Medieval Europe warfare was so common it pretty much became a season. They'd plant the crops in the spring, march off to war all summer and then everyone would drop everything to go reap the harvests in the fall. In the winter even the non professionals would practice and train as much as they were able to be ready for the next season. Wars went on for years this way. There is no tradition of this in Westeros, so it could be reasonably assumed that the majority of troops listed are levies/conscripts with little formal training and self owned equipment.

Now this doesn't mean that they have no training and/or experience. I suppose that would depend on where they were from and what their liege lord expects of them by way of preparational readiness. For example, I would think that the northerners, who have to deal with Wildling and Ironborn raids frequently, might be a little more battle hardened than say, the Riverlands or Vale folk, who live in relative safety from outside attack. Of course, if you live in a region where the lords are frequently squabbling your common folk are going to be very experienced (at least in being attacked).

On the subject of the lord (or other leader) equipping their levies; yes they would try to find equipment for as many men as possible, but that stuff was only on loan. The men were expected to return it or buy it, which many would do with the proceeds of their looting for the season.

On the subject of professional soldiers; don't forget the NW and you also need to consider the hedge knights (and their squires), as well as sellswords, along with the lords, knights and their retainers and guardsmen.

Speaking of the NW and commoner training, if the recruits sent to the Wall are any indication, the majority of commoners are not very experienced at all.

[Corvo the Crow]

@Trefayne We get mentions of Crops dying due to no harvest though, and other related stuff. 

Also I’d suggest reading e-Ro’s thread, most mentions we get off soldiers show them as  proficient even if they aren’t working as professionals. They are trained, drilled, disciplined and propely equipped. Now, the lords have armories and may be supplying these levies with gear but even if so we clearly see they aren’t cladding any peasant boy in plate even if they have the surplus Tyrion’s men getting arms and armor but most of Gregor’s flank wielding farm tools and fighting practically naked in comparison is proof enough.

Karstark spearmen are also proof of this proficiency; Even when Gregor’s giant of a horse breaks their line and Gregor starts swinging his massive sword, they aren’t fleeing with instinct, the first thing they are doing is to try to close the gap but they are prevented because Clansmen pour through that.

Commonfolk they may be, but these are no mere peasants plucked off from the field and a spear thrusted to his hand and told to march. 

 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

19 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

@Trefayne We get mentions of Crops dying due to no harvest though, and other related stuff. 

Also I’d suggest reading e-Ro’s thread, most mentions we get off soldiers show them as  proficient even if they aren’t working as professionals. They are trained, drilled, disciplined and propely equipped. Now, the lords have armories and may be supplying these levies with gear but even if so we clearly see they aren’t cladding any peasant boy in plate even if they have the surplus Tyrion’s men getting arms and armor but most of Gregor’s flank wielding farm tools and fighting practically naked in comparison is proof enough.

 

Getting back before the harvest was always a worry, especially if you were an English levy campaigning in France or vice versa. You're probably looking at least a month of travel time, and if you had an early frost... well. I'm pretty sure GRRM is aware of this and uses it in his writing.

I might have to do that since that isn't the impression I get at all. The professional troops, or at least the seasoned garrisoned men after the war starts, seem proficient enough, but most basic commoners seem pretty poorly skilled most times. Has that thread taken into account that we meet most fighting men after they have seen battle and are now regularly drilled since they seem to be there for the duration? See, this is the difference between a levy and a conscript. Levies get to go home to take care of personal business with the understanding that they are going to return when called. Conscripts are pressed into service until they are released from it (if ever). Are we sure we know which is which or if there is even a difference in Westeros?

I wouldn't take Tyrion's experience in the van too genuinely. Tywin was trying to get him killed, and the van was ranked with fodder to distract and soften up the enemy. And no, of course they aren't going to hand plate armor out to anyone. First of all, it has to be fit to the person wearing it to work well and second, you're talking about the equivalent of about $500,000 worth of gear in today's money, so no, that's not happening. A basic levy would be happy to get some kind of hauberk (brigandine or mail) a helm and a shield along with an ax or spear and a dagger. If he survived long enough, he might be able to cherry pick some better pieces while looting a battlefield.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

@Corvo the Crow

I read E-Ro's OP and he is doing what I call proceeding from a false assumption (I'm not sure if it's a good sign or not that he was banned). He is taking one aspect of GRRM's structure and using it to define everything, despite textual evidence (or lack thereof) to the contrary. I actually touched on this topic in another thread (Structure and Organization of the Royal Household/Court in King's Landing?) in this forum and I think it is applicable here too:

 

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I've been pondering this subject lately and it seems to me that we, the readers, have a little responsibility for our expectations of what is portrayed in the books. Since GRRM has declared the War of the Roses as his inspiration for his Westerosi conflict in the story, we as readers seem to expect that everything else is of that period, when it is not. GRRM is pretty much all over the place as far as societal, technological and political/judicial matters.

What I've noticed is that his political strife may be 15th century, but his technological level is mostly entrenched in the 14th century, with occasional forays into eras as far advanced as the 16th century, and his societal level is stuck in the relatively simple (in comparison) life of the 12th century.

For us history buffs, it seems strange when we expect certain things to be in place in a certain era and they aren't. We might want to take that bit of advice from GRRM and put down the stopwatch. Still. I could use a few more lists about household officers and one or two less feast menu reviews.

 

So, that rationale and what we see presented in the books seems at odds with the idea that the Westerosi commons is anywhere near as martially proficient as their real world counterparts. Whipping troops into shape isn't that hard once you convince them that breaking the line will be much more catastrophic than holding it. Training spearmen/pikemen to plant and hold against a charge takes an afternoon. It's teaching them to march in formation and hold it in close battle that takes practice and nerve.

[Corvo the Crow]

59 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

Whipping troops into shape isn't that hard once you convince them that breaking the line will be much more catastrophic than holding it. Training spearmen/pikemen to plant and hold against a charge takes an afternoon. It's teaching them to march in formation and hold it in close battle that takes practice and nerve.

We see that as well; Can’t quote but from memory Tyrion says they are marching to the rythms of drums and form a crescent “double hedgehog” to receive Gregor’s charge. We get the occasional poorly armed and armored as well but it is rare. Frey stays with 4000 troops including twins garrison and we see they are mailed. at the end, despite his losses he has 4000 on the field, apart from Darry, Twins and Seagard Garrisons and we see how poorly equipped some of them are while there are still good ones.