[SPOILERS] Military matters and population development (including cities)

[Three-Fingered Pete]

16 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

We see that as well; Can’t quote but from memory Tyrion says they are marching to the rythms of drums and form a crescent “double hedgehog” to receive Gregor’s charge.

 

That is a standard and basic defensive formation. It is obvious that they have been drilled (unknown for how long), but I'm talking about close formation fighting with the spear/pike company on the attack, not the defense. Defense is easy with pole arms. Attack takes lots of practice if you want the company to hold ranks. I don't remember any accounts of companies of pikemen ravaging the countryside, but it has been awhile. It is also very probable that the sergeants were at the front of the line receiving the charge and that the green troops were holding the rear until they got their legs. That would explain the Karstark troops not fleeing in the face of the Mountain.

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Trefayne said:

@Corvo the Crow

I read E-Ro's OP and he is doing what I call proceeding from a false assumption (I'm not sure if it's a good sign or not that he was banned). He is taking one aspect of GRRM's structure and using it to define everything, despite textual evidence (or lack thereof) to the contrary. I actually touched on this topic in another thread (Structure and Organization of the Royal Household/Court in King's Landing?) in this forum and I think it is applicable here too:

 

 

So, that rationale and what we see presented in the books seems at odds with the idea that the Westerosi commons is anywhere near as martially proficient as their real world counterparts. Whipping troops into shape isn't that hard once you convince them that breaking the line will be much more catastrophic than holding it. Training spearmen/pikemen to plant and hold against a charge takes an afternoon. It's teaching them to march in formation and hold it in close battle that takes practice and nerve.

I agree with this assessment. We see evidence of arms and armor that stretch from the late 12th century to the 15th. We see battle formations and tactics are also all over the place. Like people still use shield walls, because shields are still widely used, which wasn't the case in the Wars of the Roses. 

(And E-Ro was banned!? Damn)

[Three-Fingered Pete]

20 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

I agree with this assessment. We see evidence of arms and armor that stretch from the late 12th century to the 15th. We see battle formations and tactics are also all over the place. Like people still use shield walls, because shields are still widely used, which wasn't the case in the Wars of the Roses. 

(And E-Ro was banned!? Damn)

 

Actually, his armor occasionally stretches into the 16th century, as do some of his ships. I'm sure I could pick out a few other things on my next reread. Strange thing is, I'll be damned if I can remember one reference to a halberd or a bill or a bardiche or a bec de corbin (which is funny since GRRM loves ravens and crows so much) or any of the other myriad stabby and slicey things on the end of a stick from the 14th-15th centuries. I think there was a mention of poleaxes, though, at the Red Wedding. I guess GRRM isn't into pole arms that much.

 

ETA:

Yeah, according to his avatar info in the thread Corvo posted.

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Ran said:

Doubtless because, if they get annoyed enough, they are very able to rebelling and causing a lot of problems, as they have done in the past.

A good assessment of how strong they are _really_, when not leading a royal host, is that Arianne believed that if Dorne rose up for Myrcella but the Yronwoods held out for Quentyn, they would stand "alone" and would not be a significant threat. They are a strong house, but they don't outweigh the rest of Dorne, or even half of it.

The way the Martells dealt with the Oberyn issue implies that they are no longer as strong relative to House Martell they have been in the old days. Considering how widely it is believed that Oberyn basically poisoned Lord Edgar it is very odd that this did not lead to another rebellion.

In addition, Nymeria actually did conquer all Dorne, breaking the Yronwoods in the process. Their original power must have been greatly reduced even back then as part of the terms offered to Yorrick V's heir - he himself went to the Wall.

And then we have the Yronwoods fighting in three Blackfyre Rebellions. We see how this kind of thing affected the Peakes, the Smallwoods, the Butterwells, the Heddles, etc. The Yronwoods were not reduced to petty lords or landed knights, of course, but it doesn't make sense to assume they got out of three failed rebellions unscathed. At least they would have lost lands and vassals.

And that might mean that they are today more ancient titles and honor and lineage and less actual military power.

5 hours ago, Trefayne said:

Now this doesn't mean that they have no training and/or experience. I suppose that would depend on where they were from and what their liege lord expects of them by way of preparational readiness. For example, I would think that the northerners, who have to deal with Wildling and Ironborn raids frequently, might be a little more battle hardened than say, the Riverlands or Vale folk, who live in relative safety from outside attack. Of course, if you live in a region where the lords are frequently squabbling your common folk are going to be very experienced (at least in being attacked).

The greatest martial in Westeros seems to be in the Dornish Marches. That's where blood flowed for millennia without it ever stopping, and while that changed after the union with Dorne, they did not really change their way of life. Same thing with the Shield Islanders, those Vale men living close to the territories of the clansmen, and, likely, also back in the days the lands south of the Gifts were still more densely populated. The Umbers and clansmen may still have a stronger martial culture than, say, the people living around Winterfell or Barrowton where life should be much safer.

Aside from that, dealing with outlaws and robber knights and the like could also have provided men to play at war/use their skills at arms in the field, but that wouldn't have involved large armies. In fact, that would have been the kind of actual combat the men-at-arms and sworn swords permanently in the service of this or that lord would get in times of peace. But to bring down the Giant of the Trident or the Brotherhood of the Kingswood no lord or king would actually assemble vast armies. This would provide for a very limited training.

In fact, the reason why the Faith Militant had as little success in the field as they did most likely has a lot to do with the fact that Maegor could call on the majority of the professional warriors - both cavalry and infantry - the lords and their vassals could provide whereas the Faith had far too much rabble with only very few actual lords and knights and their professional men among them.

If there were a large basis of semi-professional 'great warriors' chances are pretty high that such men would, collectively, make up a significant power bloc. But this doesn't seem to be the case - or at least the Faith could not really get that power bloc on their side.

5 hours ago, Trefayne said:

Speaking of the NW and commoner training, if the recruits sent to the Wall are any indication, the majority of commoners are not very experienced at all.

It seems quite clear that Westeros is this 'castle culture' thing. Education and training are to be had at castles. If you live in a castle you can interact with maesters and men-at-arms - in the countryside this doesn't happen. This is even emphasized by the concept of 'castle-forged steel' - meaning the kind of steel weapons you can get in a castle are much better than those to be had in another place.

To a degree even commoners living in a castle can get training at arms, as we see in the example of Rolly Duckfield, but if you don't grow in a castle environment chances are very low that anyone notices your talents - and for them to notice them your talents have to be great. Dunk and Glendon Ball are huge exceptions, miracles even. 

Back when there was constant warfare a man of humble origins could have likely risen very high and more quickly than after the Conquest considering many a lord may have been in need of good warriors to defend his lands, attack the neighbors, provide the king with men for war, etc.

Just look how the Dondarrions became lords. That kind of thing rarely happens in modern days.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It seems quite clear that Westeros is this 'castle culture' thing. Education and training are to be had at castles. If you live in a castle you can interact with maesters and men-at-arms - in the countryside this doesn't happen. This is even emphasized by the concept of 'castle-forged steel' - meaning the kind of steel weapons you can get in a castle are much better than those to be had in another place.

To a degree even commoners living in a castle can get training at arms, as we see in the example of Rolly Duckfield, but if you don't grow in a castle environment chances are very low that anyone notices your talents - and for them to notice them your talents have to be great. Dunk and Glendon Ball are huge exceptions, miracles even. 

 

I'd say castle and city/large town. I'm sure a denizen Flea Bottom could convince a Gold Cloak or sellsword to impart them some training if they could make it worth their while to do so. Bronn certainly wasn't the product of a castle environment, although we can probably classify him as exceptional as I would Dunk and Glendon. Miracle is a bit of a stretch. Anyone really wanting to learn can just up and join a sellsword company as a camp follower and learn as they go. With a mercenary company, you'll learn fast or not at all.

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

I'd say castle and city/large town. I'm sure a denizen Flea Bottom could convince a Gold Cloak or sellsword to impart them some training if they could make it worth their while to do so. Bronn certainly wasn't the product of a castle environment, although we can probably classify him as exceptional as I would Dunk and Glendon. Miracle is a bit of a stretch. Anyone really wanting to learn can just up and join a sellsword company as a camp follower and learn as they go. With a mercenary company, you'll learn fast or not at all.

Cities offer the same environment, too, of course. And many of the towns we do know - Duskendale, Maidenpool, Bitterbridge, Tumbeton - do also have castles. Unlike the real middle ages - where the countryside was an oppressive wasteland, basically - it seems that the way (high) culture flourishes in Westeros are the castles. If that were not the implication then we would have much more towns and cities in this world, including much more townspeople playing a big role.

The average peasant cannot do what you suggest they do. Even a boy like Glendon was privileged in the sense that he was born in a brothel where the great Fireball was a patron and he had that old squire training him because his mother and her friends could buy him that. Had he been born as one of Eustace Osgrey's peasants he may have even realized that he could be a great rider.

Life in a town or city gives you opportunity to connect with important people. Life in a small village which you might not even be allowed to leave without the permission of your lord has you basically be buried alive.

Bronn's background is completely unclear at this point although I'd guess the chances are not that unlikely the man was born into a sellsword environment with his father perhaps being a sellsword or freerider. I'd be surprised if he were a peasant turned sellsword. That would be a pretty unlikely career.

Also, since sellsword companies seem to be pretty much a non-issue in Westeros - there are sellswords but no free companies as such, at least not to our present knowledge - makes it very hard for some backwater peasant to hook up with any such people. The way to make a career seems to be to be noticed by your local lord or the stewards, household knights, sworn swords, or men-at-arms of your local lord. If they take you in you can make a living there. This is how Ser Kyle the Cat wants to make a career, it is how most of the hedge knights try to make a living. Those who do not even have hedge knight fame can only hope to join some guard, it seems.

But we have no idea how open those circles are. If I had to guess then the castle culture would be a very closed environment, with the families - nobility and commoners - living there favoring their own relations and friends, and rarely allowing outsiders to come in. After all, they would have to share the revenues and jobs with such new men. And a castle can only feed and support a limited number of people.

In times of crisis and change such things could happen, but one assumes only on the lower levels - say, some new guardsmen, men-at-arms, and sworn swords, perhaps. But many of those would be on a hire-and-fire basis, the way Ser Arlan lived his life. The idea (m)any people can rise high in a society as rigid and hierarchical as the society of Westeros is very unlikely.

This people are all dialed-up versions of real royal/noble snobs. I mean, Elizabeth II can only trace her line back to the Anglo-Saxon kings, a bare millennium and a few centuries. The sense of entitlement that must come - and clearly does come - from the idea that there unbroken lines of nobility and royal stretching back 6,000-8,000 years cannot be overestimated.

Commoners in Westeros are much more fucked and impotent than their equivalents in the real world - where the kings and lords had very often to deal with peasant uprisings and the like. Things that are completely unheard of in Westeros. The society is not really described as a pretty rigid class system, but it is clear that it is exactly that. The fact that this is not rubbed into our faces has to do with the fact that in-universe pretty much no one reflects on the nature of the society they live in.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The average peasant cannot do what you suggest they do. Even a boy like Glendon was privileged in the sense that he was born in a brothel where the great Fireball was a patron and he had that old squire training him because his mother and her friends could buy him that. Had he been born as one of Eustace Osgrey's peasants he may have even realized that he could be a great rider.

Life in a town or city gives you opportunity to connect with important people. Life in a small village which you might not even be allowed to leave without the permission of your lord has you basically be buried alive.

...

Also, since sellsword companies seem to be pretty much a non-issue in Westeros - there are sellswords but no free companies as such, at least not to our present knowledge - makes it very hard for some backwater peasant to hook up with any such people. The way to make a career seems to be to be noticed by your local lord or the stewards, household knights, sworn swords, or men-at-arms of your local lord. If they take you in you can make a living there. This is how Ser Kyle the Cat wants to make a career, it is how most of the hedge knights try to make a living. Those who do not even have hedge knight fame can only hope to join some guard, it seems.

 

I'm surprised you think that way since serfs ran away all the time (historically). As long as they didn't get caught (which they frequently were) and never came back, they were usually OK. Most people outside your close relationships didn't really know what you looked like.

And I think you might be misinterpreting me. I'm not talking about climbing the social ladder from Flea Bottom to the Red Keep like Dunk. That's an exceptional tale, which is why we get to read about it. I'm just talking about an able bodied man with the desire to become a soldier going about it the way anyone would; by seeking out those who can teach them and are willing to do so. This may be by way of their lord's permission/blessing/help or not. The main problem would be ignorance of the way to go about finding those types of people if you weren't an urbanite, but going to a large population center would be your ultimate goal if you were left to your own devices and needed guidance.

[Loose Bolt]

Another possible way to leave cities or towns with harbour are ships. After all thanks to poor food, water and diseases  aboard those ships there should be very huge demand for new blood for crews of those ships. If that person is lucky enough to survive he should learn something and even became hand of the king. 

[Ran]

Serfdom doesn't exist in Westeros, outside the thralldom of the Iron Islands. It's a word George has never used in discussing smallfolk, we meet many smallfolk who have travelled and settled in new places, and so on.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

18 minutes ago, Ran said:

Serfdom doesn't exist in Westeros, outside the thralldom of the Iron Islands. It's a word George has never used in discussing smallfolk, we meet many smallfolk who have travelled and settled in new places, and so on.

 

Westerosi don't serf. Got it.

[Lord Varys]

13 minutes ago, Ran said:

Serfdom doesn't exist in Westeros, outside the thralldom of the Iron Islands. It's a word George has never used in discussing smallfolk, we meet many smallfolk who have travelled and settled in new places, and so on.

Bloodraven/Aerys I do command the starving smallfolk to return to their fields and farms. That indicates they are not exactly free to do whatever they hell they want. If the peasants left the lands of a particular lord, say, said lord would face a lot of problems, causing the feudal system in the region to crumble.

Things like the prosperity of KL seem to be exceptions to me - with the king inviting a lot of smallfolk and giving them permission to migrate to the city rather than stuff like that happening automatically.

But even if smallfolk were allowed to do as they please, it is quite clear that most of the farmhands and peons - which would greatly outnumber the actual peasants - wouldn't have the money to actually do that.

From Osgrey's smallfolk one guy was once in a pilgrimage in Oldtown and the others who left did so when Ser Eustace dragged them to war. These people do not travel.

Those who travel around are merchants, traders, and people who actually have a profession that gives them funds - like blacksmiths and armorers and the like. That would  not be the majority of the commoners of Westeros. Rather the upper 10-20% or so.

The entire feudal system would collapse if the lords didn't have strong chains in place to ensure that their peasants do work their land. I don't know how that works but there are no hints that they actually do that of their own free will or because they greatly profit from the way things are set up. Especially not when we look how the average commoner is mistreated and exploited by his lords as per THK and TSS. Rohanne and Eustace as sympathetic to various degrees but they only care about their own petty concerns.

2 hours ago, Trefayne said:

And I think you might be misinterpreting me. I'm not talking about climbing the social ladder from Flea Bottom to the Red Keep like Dunk. That's an exceptional tale, which is why we get to read about it. I'm just talking about an able bodied man with the desire to become a soldier going about it the way anyone would; by seeking out those who can teach them and are willing to do so. This may be by way of their lord's permission/blessing/help or not. The main problem would be ignorance of the way to go about finding those types of people if you weren't an urbanite, but going to a large population center would be your ultimate goal if you were left to your own devices and needed guidance.

Sure, if you are a farmhand's son living close to the local castle you might have a chance to enter into service there. The same if you are living close to a town. 

But considering how early your future is determined in this world - you are an adult with 16, and choose your profession at 9-12 or so - assuming you can do that. If the real middle ages are any indication you simply do whatever the hell your father or grandfather had done before you. This is not a world where people do have much of a choice. Not even nobles and royals have such choices. They have to train at arms, even princes and kings not inclined to do so like Vaegon and Aegon III.

In that sense, a peasant's son trying to become a soldier would like be a misfit who is not happy with his lot in life, rebelling against his parents and essentially leaving his home. Some may be forced to do this if their father's lands cannot support the entire family, etc.

1 hour ago, Loose Bolt said:

Another possible way to leave cities or towns with harbour are ships. After all thanks to poor food, water and diseases  aboard those ships there should be very huge demand for new blood for crews of those ships. If that person is lucky enough to survive he should learn something and even became hand of the king. 

For that you have to live in one of the few great coastal cities/towns. Most Westerosi likely cannot swim nor have they ever seen the sea. Such people are not likely to be inclined to work on a ship. On the lordly level we see this kind of thing with Gedmund Great-Axe or Rodrik Cassel.

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Bloodraven/Aerys I do command the starving smallfolk to return to their fields and farms. That indicates they are not exactly free to do whatever they hell they want.

Bloodraven can also command some lordling to go back to his lands. As Ser Rodrik orders the Wild Rabbits to quit their antics and go back to Torrhen's Square. Or as Jaime commands Ryman Frey to decamp from Riverrun.

Bloodraven's order is to try and preserve the peace and stability, because these starving people are only going to cause more problems by mobilizing than they'd solve. It doesn't implicate them as being serfs who are bound to the land. 

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If the peasants left the lands of a particular lord, say, said lord would face a lot of problems, causing the feudal system in the region to crumble.

Sure. Which is why lords need to be careful with how they treat their smallfolk, broadly speaking.

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But even if smallfolk were allowed to do as they please, it is quite clear that most of the farmhands and peons - which would greatly outnumber the actual peasants - wouldn't have the money to actually do that.

 

 These people do not travel.

Many don't because many of them are happy enough with what they have versus the chance that they won't . Better to toil with land that's sure under your feet than to set out hoping you'll manage to acquire a plot of land elsewhere. So, yeah, you don't need serfdom to explain why peasants tend to put up with even fairly unpleasant lords -- the alternatives are often worse. 

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The entire feudal system would collapse if the lords didn't have strong chains in place to ensure that their peasants do work their land. I don't know how that works but there are no hints that they actually do that of their own free will or because they greatly profit from the way things are set up.

The only "chain" is the land. There are no lords that we know of who are actively offering to hand out farms to people who move to them. So if you are a farmer working a lord's land, paying rent for it, and you get upset -- what do you do? You leave behind your home, you leave behind your land and your crop, you leave behind the legacy of your heirs, and you go somewhere else to do ... what? Become a hired hand for some other farmer, and hope to have a little room in a cottage for you and your family? Or do you just keep your head down and keep working the land you've got and just hope things will get better?

You do not need serfdom to have peasants or feudalism, and for that matter the way George has written about the thralldom in the Iron Islands makes it clear that it's a custom that is frowned upon in Westeros, even though it's essentially a type of serfdom. Smallfolk are free in the Seven Kingdoms, free to strike out and try to make a different life for themselves, with the only sticking point is that making a life for yourself is hard when you can't take your land with you and you may have no good prospects for acquiring new land.

 

[lysmonger]

13 minutes ago, Ran said:

Bloodraven can also command some lordling to go back to his lands. As Ser Rodrik orders the Wild Rabbits to quit their antics and go back to Torrhen's Square. Or as Jaime commands Ryman Frey to decamp from Riverrun.

Bloodraven's order is to try and preserve the peace and stability, because these starving people are only going to cause more problems by mobilizing than they'd solve. It doesn't implicate them as being serfs who are bound to the land. 

Sure. Which is why lords need to be careful with how they treat their smallfolk, broadly speaking.

Many don't because many of them are happy enough with what they have versus the chance that they won't . Better to toil with land that's sure under your feet than to set out hoping you'll manage to acquire a plot of land elsewhere. So, yeah, you don't need serfdom to explain why peasants tend to put up with even fairly unpleasant lords -- the alternatives are often worse. 

The only "chain" is the land. There are no lords that we know of who are actively offering to hand out farms to people who move to them. So if you are a farmer working a lord's land, paying rent for it, and you get upset -- what do you do? You leave behind your home, you leave behind your land and your crop, you leave behind the legacy of your heirs, and you go somewhere else to do ... what? Become a hired hand for some other farmer, and hope to have a little room in a cottage for you and your family? Or do you just keep your head down and keep working the land you've got and just hope things will get better?

You do not need serfdom to have peasants or feudalism, and for that matter the way George has written about the thralldom in the Iron Islands makes it clear that it's a custom that is frowned upon in Westeros, even though it's essentially a type of serfdom. Smallfolk are free in the Seven Kingdoms, free to strike out and try to make a different life for themselves, with the only sticking point is that making a life for yourself is hard when you can't take your land with you and you may have no good prospects for acquiring new land.

 

I was always curious to any contractual or feudal duties smallfolk. In France, serfs or commoners were obligated to do 10 -12 days of work for a lord for 2 months.

Granted most feudal serf laws were implented by the Normans.

Do smallfolk have rights of passage anywhere? Or is there movement greatly restricted?

 

[Ran]

Just now, lysmonger said:

I was always curious to any contractual or feudal duties smallfolk. In France, serfs or commoners were obligated to do 10 -12 days of work for a lord for 2 months.

Granted most feudal serf laws were implented by the Normans.

Do smallfolk have rights of passage anywhere? Or is there movement greatly restricted?

 

My guess is that most smallfolk who have land do so as tenants of a lord, and this would mean they have some obligations, obligations that can't be met if they leave that land. But presumably they can discharge those obligations, as Varys suggests -- pay their expected rent, maybe a small tax on top of that, and go where they please. And even smallfolk who outright own their own land (and we know they exist) likely swear some service to the local lord for their protection, obligations that they'd have to transfer to someone else if they decided to sell their land and go elsewhere.

[lysmonger]

That makes sense. 

The land issue is interesting or the controlling mechanisms of private ownership. Were they ever limited?

I know in England for a while it was illegal for a Norman to sell land to AngloSaxons.

[lysmonger]

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

My guess is that most smallfolk who have land do so as tenants of a lord, and this would mean they have some obligations, obligations that can't be met if they leave that land. But presumably they can discharge those obligations, as Varys suggests -- pay their expected rent, maybe a small tax on top of that, and go where they please. And even smallfolk who outright own their own land (and we know they exist) likely swear some service to the local lord for their protection, obligations that they'd have to transfer to someone else if they decided to sell their land and go elsewhere.

I feel most lords now have insufficient  sources of revenue. Granted, there is far less castles in Westeros  than in Medieval Europe, but surely most would be hard to maintain on given revenue. 

[lysmonger]

Was there are a specific thought why the Crown doesn't have a somewhat more robust state apparatus? 

I think medieval France had a very large amount(thousands) of Tax Collectors, secular priests, and Magisters helping to run the state regardless who is King. 

[Corvo the Crow]

19 hours ago, Trefayne said:

 

That is a standard and basic defensive formation. It is obvious that they have been drilled (unknown for how long), but I'm talking about close formation fighting with the spear/pike company on the attack, not the defense. Defense is easy with pole arms. Attack takes lots of practice if you want the company to hold ranks. I don't remember any accounts of companies of pikemen ravaging the countryside, but it has been awhile. It is also very probable that the sergeants were at the front of the line receiving the charge and that the green troops were holding the rear until they got their legs. That would explain the Karstark troops not fleeing in the face of the Mountain.

 

Does this count?

 

He had no time to think about it. The drums were so near that the beat crept under his skin and set his hands to twitching. Bronn drew his longsword, and suddenly the enemy was there before them, boiling over the tops of the hills, advancing with measured tread behind a wall of shields and pikes.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Does this count?

 

He had no time to think about it. The drums were so near that the beat crept under his skin and set his hands to twitching. Bronn drew his longsword, and suddenly the enemy was there before them, boiling over the tops of the hills, advancing with measured tread behind a wall of shields and pikes.

 

It's close, but marching in a defensive formation is just a step above forming a defensive line/perimeter. It's one of the first things taught. Again, attacking with a spear/pike company is an art form in itself. You're talking about unwieldy weapons anywhere between 6' and 15' long that are nearly useless on their own. The strength of the attack comes from the company working as a unit and being able to reform into a cohesive assault force on the march as men are lost, all the while protecting their flanks and rear.

I'll concede that these particular troops are trained, but we don't know who they are or anything about their backgrounds (except that they're north men). They could have been the bulk of the professional, or at least veteran, soldiers or they could have been farm hands a week before. Also, how many reported engagements had the forces had before this encounter? How much time did they have to drill before hitting the field? IIRC that battle took place after the start of major hostilities. At some point, everyone is a veteran.

This may be another case of your horse archers though. Until I see a company of pikemen on the attack, I can't really say.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, Trefayne said:

 

It's close, but marching in a defensive formation is just a step above forming a defensive line/perimeter. It's one of the first things taught. Again, attacking with a spear/pike company is an art form in itself. You're talking about unwieldy weapons anywhere between 6' and 15' long that are nearly useless on their own. The strength of the attack comes from the company working as a unit and being able to reform into a cohesive assault force on the march as men are lost, all the while protecting their flanks and rear.

I'll concede that these particular troops are trained, but we don't know who they are or anything about their backgrounds (except that they're north men). They could have been the bulk of the professional, or at least veteran, soldiers or they could have been farm hands a week before. Also, how many reported engagements had the forces had before this encounter? How much time did they have to drill before hitting the field? IIRC that battle took place after the start of major hostilities. At some point, everyone is a veteran.

This may be another case of your horse archers though. Until I see a company of pikemen on the attack, I can't really say.

Why are you so determined to portray Westerosi troops as shit? The primary forces of every kingdom seem pretty decently trained.

It is the reserves who drop rapidly in quality, down to peasants with sharpened sticks once the primary forces are depleted.