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Angel Eyes

Is it just me, or does Tywin appear rather lazy between wars?

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It seems to me that Tywin Lannister, who practically ran Westeros for 20 years, appeared to be quite lazy between Robert’s Rebellion and the War of Five Kings. His daughter is the Queen and he does precious little apart from participating in the suppression of Greyjoy’s Rebellion, having Tyrion’s wife gang-raped, and generally quashing Tyrion’s hopes and dreams. It’s rather unbecoming that an ambitious man obsessed with legacy like Tywin would not play an active role in the realm or its future. For example, it seems to me that he missed an opportunity with Joffrey to make sure the realm didn’t go to pieces and make him an asset. Instead, he (and a bunch of other people including Robert, Cersei and Jaime) let Joffrey fester into a cowardly tyrant whose idea of entertainment is having his betrothed, a girl of 12, beaten and stripped.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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He rules the Westerlands, that in itself, depending on how active a role he plays in micromanaging, can be a huge job. 

Given he is not a POV nor have we had any POV's set in the Westerlands can I ask what you are basing this on? 

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I think Tywin's continued presence in KL could be viewed as him trying to seize the power from Jon Arryn, so he chose to be diplomatic and stay away. And, as it stands, the appointed part of the Small Council (5 out of 7 positions) were Robert's brothers, Robert's almost-adoptive-father his protege. Clearly neither Jon, nor Robert were interested in inviting outsiders.

Besides, I can imagine Robert didn't want any more Lannisters around him, especially ones like Tywin. :D

And I think Tywin just had no idea how bad Joffrey turned out until Robert died.

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

It seems to me that Tywin Lannister, who practically ran Westeros for 20 years, appeared to be quite lazy between Robert’s Rebellion and the War of Five Kings. His daughter is the Queen and he does precious little apart from participating in the suppression of Greyjoy’s Rebellion, having Tyrion’s wife gang-raped, and generally quashing Tyrion’s hopes and dreams. It’s rather unbecoming that an ambitious man obsessed with legacy like Tywin would not play an active role in the realm or its future. For example, it seems to me that he missed an opportunity with Joffrey to make sure the realm didn’t go to pieces and make him an asset. Instead, he (and a bunch of other people including Robert, Cersei and Jaime) let Joffrey fester into a cowardly tyrant whose idea of entertainment is having his betrothed, a girl of 12, beaten and stripped.

What would you rather he did? Joffrey is in King's Landing with his mother and father while Tywin is occupying his seat some 800 leagues away. How is he supposed to guide Joffrey's upbringing? Robert makes the decision on when, where and whether Joff is to be fostered, and Robert (and probably Cersei as well) chose to keep him in KL. How is the Warden of the West supposed to overrule that decision?

Tywin has no position at Robert's court. In what way is he supposed manage the crown's affairs? 

Also, Sansa's beating were not for Joffrey's entertainment, although he did get some satisfaction out of it. It was a message to the realm, and particularly to houses that might be considering joining Robb's cause, that the crown will prevail in the end despite the recent setbacks in the Riverlands.

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I can understand why Tywin wasn't interested in being in KL since I think that he probably couldn't stand Robert. The only thing that bemuses me about that time is why Tywin didn't insist on fostering Joffery at the Rock in his formative years. Robert might have even been glad to get the little monster (and his wife when she went to visit) off of his hands for awhile.

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Young Tywin sat in high frustration at watching the Westerlands fall apart under Tytos with the Lords not even listening to Tytos anymore in some cases. For some, it was open rebellion. They nearly lost all hence why Tywin was so brutal with the Reynes. After seeing this and not being to do anything about it for so long, after being on the brink of losing Casterly Rock, I don't think Tywin leaves anything to chance.

And I don't think that just because we aren't told about the day-to-day work of any given character (exciting!), that we can conclude that they were lazy.

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Age comes for all. Tywin is old he is not as willing as a young lord, he already proved himself so he does not need to go out of his way, his bannermen are loyal, he is rulling over the biggest summer ever, he does not had any bigger crises to deal with, and he is rulling the Westerlands, from what we got to see Robb in AGoT through Bran, seems a very busy task.

Tywin's biggesct concern during this period is to get Jaime out of KG and find him a bride, so his legacy would be secure.

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AGOT opens with a few chapters where we see Eddard's role in governing the North.  He does this in the complete absence of royal influence or needs beyond taxes.  Eddard's only real contribution to the greater realm has been participation in suppressing the Ironborn revolt, supplying the Watch, and keeping his vassals in line (Jorah, first night, etc).  We know Eddard travels to see his bannermen and hosts them at his own residence. 

It's work.  The Ned hasn't been sitting around scratching his ass for 14 years.  I imagine Tywin has been doing more of the same.  Come to think of it, Tywin has also been tasked with rebuilding his navy and Lannisport in the aftermath of the Ironborn raid.  He has probably been fairly busy, too. 

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Tywin has a daughter as Queen and his grandson will be King in due course.  It's hard to see what more there is to accomplish as a Feudal Lord.  Trying to muscle his way into the Small Council or be active in raising Joffrey is only going to put him on a collision path with a difficult monarch who has the upper hand completely.  Robert's Council is Robert's (Jon Arryn, Stannis, Renly) and Tywin would be isolated and powerless: he's too proud (and too smart) for that so stays well away.

When circumstances change he is in KL and Hand of the King as soon as possible.

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After having dealt with Aerys for 20 years as Hand he probably couldn't stomach coming back to often to watch Robert piss away all the gold he loaned him. That and I'm betting he wasn't too keen on watching his golden son act as a glorified bodyguard for Bobby B while he drank and whored. Or maybe after Balerion snatched a quail from Tywin's hands while he was eating and Robert laughed his arse off he was to embarrassed and or annoyed to return after that.

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19 hours ago, Trefayne said:

The only thing that bemuses me about that time is why Tywin didn't insist on fostering Joffery at the Rock in his formative years.

Cersei would never have agreed to give up raising her sweet Joffrey, so she'd have to live at the Rock as well, which isn't what GRRM wanted. 

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12 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Cersei would never have agreed to give up raising her sweet Joffrey, so she'd have to live at the Rock as well, which isn't what GRRM wanted. 

 

Well, they would have been back by the time of our story. I'm talking from around aged seven to eleven. Joff would still be spoiled and cruel, but he might have been a better king. After Tommen was born, Cersei didn't have to keep up the pretext of sharing Robert's bed and being at the Rock with Jamie (who would of course come along for protection) would make their indiscretion easier.

 

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On 11/19/2018 at 5:04 PM, Trefayne said:

The only thing that bemuses me about that time is why Tywin didn't insist on fostering Joffery at the Rock in his formative years.

It's not for Tywin to insist on anything to the King.  And however distant a father he may have been I don't imagine Robert wanted Tywin raising his son and heir.  I would love to see how that conversation went.

There is also a strong argument that the Crown Prince remain at Court both to ensure the Court learns to revolve around their future monarch (as guys like LF do) and to prevent the heir becoming a hostage or a pawn, see Balon regarding Theon as more Stark than Greyjoy.

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11 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

It's not for Tywin to insist on anything to the King.  And however distant a father he may have been I don't imagine Robert wanted Tywin raising his son and heir.  I would love to see how that conversation went.

There is also a strong argument that the Crown Prince remain at Court both to ensure the Court learns to revolve around their future monarch (as guys like LF do) and to prevent the heir becoming a hostage or a pawn, see Balon regarding Theon as more Stark than Greyjoy.

 

Tywin wouldn't be insisting to Robert, he'd be insisting to Cersei, and she'd pester Robert until he agreed just to shut her up. Besides, fostering to your in-laws was quite common and wouldn't seem strange at all. Not everyone can or wants to hang out at court. People have work to do.

As I said in my post following that one, it would only be from the age of seven to eleven. Joff would have been back in plenty of time to be the center of the universe. And :lmao:Hold the crown prince hostage, who happens to be his own grandson! Where's the gain in that? Tywin already has an in to the royal family, but he'd jeopardize that to go to war with Robert... over what? :unsure:

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21 hours ago, Trefayne said:

Tywin wouldn't be insisting to Robert, he'd be insisting to Cersei, and she'd pester Robert until he agreed just to shut her up. Besides, fostering to your in-laws was quite common and wouldn't seem strange at all. Not everyone can or wants to hang out at court. People have work to do.

As I said in my post following that one, it would only be from the age of seven to eleven. Joff would have been back in plenty of time to be the center of the universe. And :lmao:Hold the crown prince hostage, who happens to be his own grandson! Where's the gain in that? Tywin already has an in to the royal family, but he'd jeopardize that to go to war with Robert... over what? :unsure:

Cersei pestering Robert is a possibility but trips to Casterly Rock to see the in-laws is one thing, letting Tywin raise his son and heir is quite another.

The Lannisters and Barratheons are not close friends, the marriage is a union of political rivals.  You only have to look at Renly scheming to replace Cersei with Margaery Tyrell or Cersei's fear of Stannis to see the danger.  Possessing the heir would give Tywin more leverage over Robert.  It's definitely advantage Lannister whereas Robert, Renly and Stannis at Court (with Joffrey and Cersei) and Tywin at CR is advantage Barratheon.

GRRM is on the record when discussing medieval kingship as saying that sometimes the Queen's family captured the King and pushed through their own agenda.  Cersei nearly captures Robert as it is, allowing Tywin possession of the heir allows him to shape him and influence Robert both directly and indirectly through Joffrey.

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5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The Lannisters and Barratheons are not close friends, the marriage is a union of political rivals.

 

This is, of course, just my opinion, but I think Jon Arryn would have pushed for fostering with Tywin for a time just because of this reason. He'd want to smooth things out and normalizing familial ties would be one of his goals. If Robert huffed and puffed about it, his Hand could easily suggest some time down at Storm's End to give Joff some time with the rest of his family to offset the "damage". Honestly, you'd want the kid to get to know these people so he can know he can count on them later. It was part of building a good monarch.

But, within the bounds of the story none of this happens, so us going around in circles about it is just two mutts chasing their tails (tales?).

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When discussing the possibility of Joffrey being fostered to Tywin, I think the issues would lie less with Robert and Tywin and more with Cersei.  Robert has no problem arranging for Tywin to foster Robert Arryn after Jon's death, after all, and tells Ned it would be an insult to refuse Tywin. 

We also see Jaime arguing with Cersei about Tommen, when Tommen is king.  Jaime states that Tommen should (even as king) be a squire, and makes the case for Loras Tyrell being a worthy knight for Tommen to serve.  Cersei refuses, on the verge of hysteria, and only agrees to get a new Master-at-Arms to train Tommen, who would not be leaving King's Landing. 

Tywin seems solid, in this regard, and Robert would likely have had no objection. 

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