Canadian Politics: Revenge of the small minds

[The Anti-Targ]

The 1999-2008 Labour govt (3 election cycles) in NZ was a minority govt with a couple of parties entering into a confidence and supply arrangement. Seemed to be stable enough. But since 2008 we've only had formal coalitions.

[Paxter]

6 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

Yeah pretty much, with the NDP without much in the way of finances, and the Bloc with nothing to gain and everything to lose the Liberals don't need a formal coalition to keep power. And it's not all that bold by Canadian standards, coalitions are pretty rare, formal or informal.

Ok makes sense. My local knowledge improving with each passing day :/

[JGP]

Evenso, I agree with Paxter. It's still kind of bold. Excepting the Bloc, not one federal party got anywhere near what they wanted. The Cons got rejected by the progressive vote, sure, but so did the Liberals. I don't know where Trudeau is getting this confidence from, frankly.

The provincial NDP only won in Alberta because the right had split and done likewise to the vote. Once Kenney reunited the parties under the UCP, Conservative rule in AB was a done deal. I'd like to see some wild leftist magnet move the Liberals leftward and unite them with the NDP and whichever non-conservative Greens wanted to jump ship. It'd would be the death knell of the current iteration of the CPC. 

[Ser Reptitious]

4 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

The provincial NDP only won in Alberta because the right had split and done likewise to the vote. Once Kenney reunited the parties under the UCP, Conservative rule in AB was a done deal. I'd like to see some wild leftist magnet move the Liberals leftward and unite them with the NDP and whichever non-conservative Greens wanted to jump ship. It'd would be the death knell of the current iteration of the CPC. 

Er, I disagree with that one. In the end, you would simply end up with a situation like we now have in the U.S., where you have a centre-right and a far right party. Look at how boldly Singh came out in support of clean drinking water for aboriginal communities and taxing the rich. The Liberals are already rather mealy-mouthed on such issues. Imagine how things go if there is no pressure from a party further to the left anymore...

[Aemon Stark]

I can see yet another splinter group in Alberta away from UCP, especially with a “tough” budget coming. 

[TrueMetis]

4 hours ago, Ser Reptitious said:

Er, I disagree with that one. In the end, you would simply end up with a situation like we now have in the U.S., where you have a centre-right and a far right party. Look at how boldly Singh came out in support of clean drinking water for aboriginal communities and taxing the rich. The Liberals are already rather mealy-mouthed on such issues. Imagine how things go if there is no pressure from a party further to the left anymore... 

Have we been watching the same liberals? Liberals have put billions into clean water in aboriginal communities, already putting in more than what Singh proposed while acting like nothing was being done, and had already raised taxes on the rich while cutting lower income taxes, and are planning another middle class tax cut. Singh boldly came out for things the liberals already did/are doing, and stuff that's not reasonable.

[Raja]

1 hour ago, TrueMetis said:

already putting in more than what Singhe

Is there a reason you're spelling it 'Singhe' as opposed to 'Singh'? Not trying to be snarky, just curious.

[TrueMetis]

18 minutes ago, Raja said:

Is there a reason you're spelling it 'Singhe' as opposed to 'Singh'? Not trying to be snarky, just curious.

I don't know, I keep making that mistake despite having noted to myself that there's no e at the end. I think 'Singhe' just looks right to me. Though I do recognize I keep making that mistake and usually check so I can fix it before I post anything. I have the same problem with some French words where despite knowing full well it's not actually spelt that way I keep spelling them wrong, vielller for example, it's veiller.

[JGP]

5 hours ago, Ser Reptitious said:

Er, I disagree with that one. In the end, you would simply end up with a situation like we now have in the U.S., where you have a centre-right and a far right party. Look at how boldly Singh came out in support of clean drinking water for aboriginal communities and taxing the rich. The Liberals are already rather mealy-mouthed on such issues. Imagine how things go if there is no pressure from a party further to the left anymore...

There's lots of static you can criticize the Liberals about the Indigenous file. UNDRIP, CHRT, MMIWG [et 2T], the Indian Act, White Papers 2.0, under funding, incarceration rates and access to equal justice, but the water advisories are NOT one of them. Almost 90 lifted, over 10 billion committed to the same, but Singh's a hero for committing 1.8 on the campaign trail? Nah. 

Like, I voted for the NDP because of the Liberals taking Indigenous communities to court in northern Ontario and their last minute appeal of the CHRT ruling. Final straw for me. But it was protest-vote only. God love him, his heart is in the right place, but Singh is frightfully clueless for a federal leader. Dude needs someone to take him to school. 

Anyway, what I thought I saying was that a merger of the parties would create a new party and that an amalgamation would, perforce, move the Liberal component much further to the left. Someone has to do something. The progressive vote split is a fucking serious problem, there were dozens of tight races that were lost to the PQ and Conservatives in Quebec, for instance, that would've been denied to both with only a little more progressive support.

That, or the Conservatives need to implode and go back to their red Tory roots.  

 

5 hours ago, Aemon Stark said:

I can see yet another splinter group in Alberta away from UCP, especially with a “tough” budget coming. 

 

Possible, but I don't know. The detailed budget drops today,  

[Ser Reptitious]

19 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

Have we been watching the same liberals? Liberals have put billions into clean water in aboriginal communities, already putting in more than what Singh proposed while acting like nothing was being done, and had already raised taxes on the rich while cutting lower income taxes, and are planning another middle class tax cut. Singh boldly came out for things the liberals already did/are doing, and stuff that's not reasonable.

 

16 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

There's lots of static you can criticize the Liberals about the Indigenous file. UNDRIP, CHRT, MMIWG [et 2T], the Indian Act, White Papers 2.0, under funding, incarceration rates and access to equal justice, but the water advisories are NOT one of them. Almost 90 lifted, over 10 billion committed to the same, but Singh's a hero for committing 1.8 on the campaign trail? Nah. 

Like, I voted for the NDP because of the Liberals taking Indigenous communities to court in northern Ontario and their last minute appeal of the CHRT ruling. Final straw for me. But it was protest-vote only. God love him, his heart is in the right place, but Singh is frightfully clueless for a federal leader. Dude needs someone to take him to school. 

Fair enough. I don't live in Canada these days, so I don't get the level of detail you two have, although I do try to keep myself updated. 

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Anyway, what I thought I saying was that a merger of the parties would create a new party and that an amalgamation would, perforce, move the Liberal component much further to the left. Someone has to do something. The progressive vote split is a fucking serious problem, there were dozens of tight races that were lost to the PQ and Conservatives in Quebec, for instance, that would've been denied to both with only a little more progressive support.

It might move the Liberals left in the initial aftermath, but long-term my worry is that running just to the left of the Conservatives would become standard operating procedure, with any leader/policy proposal that today is in the middle ground between Liberals and the NDP would be branded as "far left" and "unelectable" by the self-styled moderates of that party (and the already conservative media will lap that up as "see, even within their own party they think this is too far left"). The party calculus will be "the more left-leaning people may grumble, but they have nowhere else to go, so let's not worry about them. Let's focus on winning over conservative-leaning voters instead."

 

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That, or the Conservatives need to implode and go back to their red Tory roots.  

One can hope, but sadly I don't think it's likely. 

[James Arryn]

There will no coalition because of the fucking pipeline. Once that’s forced through I expect there will be a lot more use of the fairly broad common ground between the Libs and NDP. Until then i’d expect to hear the phrase ‘case by case’ or similar a lot. 

I’ve got friends in B.C. who are getting pretty pissed with the prairies constantly including them in ‘Western Allienation’ w/o cause or consent as though they have been completely forgotten by Saskberta. They think it’s hugely and hilariously ironic, mind,  but it still pisses them off. I think ‘Oil Dependent’ is a better phrase. Prairie Alienation, maybe. 

One guy on another sight offered the only remotely plausible solution i’ve heard of for the gap:

”My Alberta platform is to declare Alberta a provisional have-not province for a defined period, suspend Alberta's obligation to pay equalization payments for a few years and divert those funds directly to Alberta economic diversification initiatives, like opening a diamond mine, or building a refinery to convert crude oil into machine oil. Basically a Marshall Plan for the West.”

 

[JGP]

3 hours ago, James Arryn said:

”My Alberta platform is to declare Alberta a provisional have-not province for a defined period, suspend Alberta's obligation to pay equalization payments for a few years and divert those funds directly to Alberta economic diversification initiatives, like opening a diamond mine, or building a refinery to convert crude oil into machine oil. Basically a Marshall Plan for the West.”

 

Sure.

I hear this a lot on/from the right, particularly from the idiotic #wexit sheeple. It's pedantic, but no province pays into equalization. The formula is one thing [which gets what, and how much] but the allotted funds-as-payments to the Provinces per the formula come from general tax revenues. Alberta whines, but Ontario and Quebec pay way more into the general coffers than Alberta does, Ontario almost double.

I'd agree that the equalization formula should get adjusted on a year by year basis, but how do we deal with a province that refuses to have a PST? Shouldn't the rest of Canada insist Alberta get real and enact a PST before tweaking the equalization formula?

I'm an Albertan, and I'd expect Canada to put its foot down. 

[JGP]

11 hours ago, Ser Reptitious said:

It might move the Liberals left in the initial aftermath, but long-term my worry is that running just to the left of the Conservatives would become standard operating procedure, with any leader/policy proposal that today is in the middle ground between Liberals and the NDP would be branded as "far left" and "unelectable" by the self-styled moderates of that party (and the already conservative media will lap that up as "see, even within their own party they think this is too far left"). The party calculus will be "the more left-leaning people may grumble, but they have nowhere else to go, so let's not worry about them. Let's focus on winning over conservative-leaning voters instead."

You have some good points in here.  

[Paxter]

My $0.02 is that you are still better off bringing all the left-leaning parties under one roof to destroy any chance of the Conservatives forming government under any circumstances (ATM the vote splitting is the only thing keeping them relevant as far as I can tell). That would then likely lead to a wholesale reinvention of the Cons as a more centrist party, thereby reducing the chances of Canada ever being governed by righties. 

Of course, all this goes out the window if you guys ditch first past the post for something better *cough* AV/IRV *cough*.

[TrueMetis]

STV or gtfo

[Fragile Bird]

Man, have you seen the seat numbers if we had some form of alternate election system? Under most of them the Conservatives would have the most seats, and of course then the Conservatives would demand to form the government because they had the most seats, even if an NDP + Liberal government would have more.

I hate to say this, but the NDP would ditch the Liberals and hold their noses and go with the Cons if they got some power out of it.

[TrueMetis]

This election has in my mind shown some of the benefits of FPTP. Indeed finding out the Liberals wanted a ranked ballot system while everyone else wanted some form of PR and that's why they ditched electoral reform caused "the liberals broke there promise of ER" to drop right off my radar on things I cared about going into the election.

Seriously with the way the cons are acting ("strongest opposition in history" ) most forms of PR are right out in my mind.

[Ser Reptitious]

18 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

You have some good points in here.  

Thanks! 

[SpaceChampion]

Just noticing the results of the NWT territorial elections -- something I've never ever paid any attention to before -- from a month ago.  Apparently it was October 1st?   Female Premier, and 4 out of 6 cabinet members are women.  Including the new MLA for Yellowknife South, Caroline Wawzonek, who is the wife of my old office-mate from grad school.  She's an impressive woman, and I could see rising much higher in the future.  Future PM of Canada is not out of the question, now that she's on the political track.  She's probably going to be something like Minister of Justice for NWT right now.

[Fragile Bird]

Cool!