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The Ramsey's list and the true goal of the Pink Letter


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1 hour ago, lalt said:

Sure. And that is why - if the author is not by Ramsey or Roose - I'd bet  it was sent from  winterfell before the escape or meanwhile, and more likely to gain his help to break Winterfell's seige, after the battle. That's another reason to have Mance in cage outside winterfell's walls. It's like "see you there"

May I ask why you are under the impression that Mance is caged outside the walls of WF?

 

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14 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

May I ask why you are under the impression that Mance is caged outside the walls of WF?

 

Gotcha :)

That's simply how I read  "I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. "

I was under the impression, it must be... outside the walls, if all the north has to see.

But I absolutely see your point. There's not proof the cage is outside. 

(maybe I was also influenced by the comparison with ACOK and the cage with the bear. The text, in fact, doesn't even say that Mance's cage is hanging like I wrongly said above).

I don't  know how much it matters.... but I'll to think about it.

However, thank you. The more we clear up, the better it is. Always.

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3 hours ago, lalt said:

My argument, you may agree or not of course, is in fact that... the rest of the people on that list are the “trick” used to push Jon to do... what he was about to do.

Arya (Jon believes that is his sister) was never enough to reach that goal.

Just like helping/avenging his father, Robb, Bran and Rickon and Arya herself (as we readers, plus Mel and Mance know) were never enough for him to take that choice: leaving the Wall with an army.

What the PL’s author does, demanding him to hand over women and children beside Reek and fArya, is forcing Jon to choose between harming the NW or ending the lives of those women and children. 

So, form this pov, on one hand the author gave Jon the most grave moral dilemma he has ever faced, on the other - just because  of this - the best possible excuse for a man like him (a man of the NW, but a man of honor too) to take the decision he took. Leaving the Wall, immediately and with an army at his back.

The PL is an unnaceptable ultimatum, for a man of honor, as Jon the son of the honorable Edd Stark is supposed to be.

He may break his vow.... but still, for an honorable reason. A reason that has nothing to do with the family he swore to put aside, or the seek of power. 

Considering that FArya is loose, I'm not sure it matters whether or not Jon leaves or not.  If he leaves, there is a good chance that he will find her in any case before he runs into Ramsay, if he even does run into him.  In fact, Jon's leaving CB may make it more likely that he meets her.

However, it is certainly in the Crown's interest that the NW not shelter Stannis's family, and this letter makes it likely that they will choose to leave.  If Ramsay is familiar with the situation at the wall, he would know that the NW likely doesn't have the force necessary to take them into custody even if it wanted to.   So he is scaring them into leaving.  In addition to establishing Jon as his enemy and attempting to discredit anything he might say about Arya.

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3 hours ago, lalt said:

Gotcha :)

That's simply how I read  "I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. "

I was under the impression, it must be... outside the walls, if all the north has to see.

But I absolutely see your point. There's not proof the cage is outside. 

(maybe I was also influenced by the comparison with ACOK and the cage with the bear. The text, in fact, doesn't even say that Mance's cage is hanging like I wrongly said above).

I don't  know how much it matters.... but I'll to think about it.

However, thank you. The more we clear up, the better it is. Always.

I like PL/bastard threads. As you say, whether or not Mance is in a cage inside or outside the walls of WF matters not does it because the importance of the PL/bastard letter is the intent to make Jon take action.

Thought I might supply a link. It's short. Three pages. Interesting none the less.

 

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I get why you would want to avoid discussion of who authored the letter, but by doing so I feel you loose the ability to see the true motive.

I believe Ramsay killed Roose before writing the letter, in a rage.  Then when he calms down he realizes Roose was right and writes the letter.  Whether people return to WF and tell Ramsay they couldn't find Theon and Arya or he goes with them and sees for himself, he will want to ride to the wall immediately assuming that is where they will go, but Roose will say no, because it would be extremely risky for them to march on Castle Black.  It takes 3-5 times the manpower to storm a castle.  Castle Black may not have a curtain wall facing south but it still has towers and the high ground, so just taking the lower number of 3 times seems fair in my mind.  But Roose and Ramsay cant know exactly how many men are there.  They would also have to use their own men, as every house in the north has family in the watch and couldn't be really trusted in a fight against Eddard Starks only living son, in addition to family members in the watch.  Taking 1500-2000 Bolton men on a thousand mile march in the middle of a storm when their Frey allies are all dead is a terrible idea.  There is no guarantee any of the men are ever seen again, and it would leave WF vulnerable.

The letter is a you don't talk I don't talk threat.  You tell the world that's not really Arya, I tell the world you spared Mance.  This gives him time to think and breath.

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I guess I'll weigh in yet again :)

12 hours ago, lalt said:

That's simply how I read  "I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. "

I was under the impression, it must be... outside the walls, if all the north has to see.

But I absolutely see your point. There's not proof the cage is outside. 

There's no proof that Ramsay had Mance in a cage, at all. There's only a claim. Looking at Mance and the remaining spearwives, while pretty well all of them have a chance of escape (some better than others) , Mance has the best chance of any of them. All he would have to do is change clothes (we know Myrtle collected changes of clothes for at least some of the spearwives), and then put Mel's ruby back on. Instantly, he'd appear to be a smaller and much homelier man. 

However, while I think a very logical case can be made that Mance wrote the letter, I don't think he did. Even if he privately suggested to Jon that Val could bring in Tormund's people, he'd have no way of knowing if Jon would send her or what had been accomplished.  So he could'nt think that Jon would have enough men at his disposal to challenge the Boltons. And he would know that the length of time it would take for Jon to reach him wouldn't favour any rescue plans.

Just a tiny note on the language used, though I could say more - 

Mance-as-Rattleshirt uses "red witch" and so Does the author of the letter.. but so does Tormund and Lady Leona in White Harbour.   

Quote

 

at Lord Wyman's feet, Lady Leona began to sob. "Ironmen from the isles, wildlings from beyond the Wall … and now this traitor lord with his outlaws, rebels, and sorcerers." She pointed a finger at Davos. "We have heard of your red witch, oh yes. She would turn us against the Seven to bow before a fire demon!"

...ADWD, Davos III

 

 

Quote

What was that about Mance? Has him in a cage, does he? How, when hundreds saw your red witch burn the man?" ... (Tormund) ADWD, Jon XIII

.... so I think that "red witch" is probably fairly common - and Mance is not the only character to use "bastard" to Jon repeatedly. (See Thorne)

9 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I get why you would want to avoid discussion of who authored the letter, but by doing so I feel you loose the ability to see the true motive.

I agree with this, but reach different conclusions. I think Theon is right when he says in the TWoW chapter that Ramsay is coming... I think Roose's plan will change once he knows of the escape. He'll let Ramsay ride out in mop up position, letting the Frey and Manderly forces deplete each other and help Arnolf deal with Stannis' starving forces. Ramsay's main goal / motivation will be to recapture fArya and Reek/Theon. (The Boltons have no claim to WF without fArya). Ramsay will follow after them. Roose won't be there to restrain him.

So I think Stannis will have believably faked his death, and will write to Jon using Tybald's WF ravens (I bet something will happen at the tree to convince Stannis they have a chance of reaching CB.) In case they do fly to WF, he writes as Ramsay to keep Roose believing he (Stannis) is dead. His motive is to give Jon warning that fArya is coming with Roose after her (knowing CB has no defenses to the south).... It's a Hail Mary pass.

At the wall, I believe that Thorne has been back secretly for some time and has been directing Bolton and the conspirators. They intercept the letter an recopy and edit it- making it more insulting adding "bastard, bastard..etc." , taunting Jon come to WF , adding the requests for Selyse, Mel etc.,etc.

Their motive is to get Jon to march south (thinking he will take the NW)..They hope he might comply with the requests for Stannis' people (They want rid of them) There's a fair amount of foreshadowing that their plan at first was to make sure Jon was killed on the ranging to Hardhome. But if he goes south to WF, they can still kill him without the risk of going north of the wall. Bowen personally is motivated by a desire to stay in KL's good books. Thorne is personally motivated by a hatred of Starks and Jon in particular  He's been trying to bring about Jon's death and disgrace, one way or another for the whole series.

So as I see it, there's not one person's motives behind the letter, but many.

The conspirators could equally have tampered with a letter from Mance or Ramsay, but Stannis is my choice ... and yes, I think GRRM has purposely made it possible for a decent case to be made for a number of different characters.

 

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9 hours ago, Nevets said:

However, it is certainly in the Crown's interest that the NW not shelter Stannis's family, and this letter makes it likely that they will choose to leave.  If Ramsay is familiar with the situation at the wall, he would know that the NW likely doesn't have the force necessary to take them into custody even if it wanted to.   So he is scaring them into leaving.  In addition to establishing Jon as his enemy and attempting to discredit anything he might say about Arya.

I just think that if we look at the PL as a tool to hurge Jon into leaving immediately with an army and then we try to figure why that should benefit the author, everything comes down far more easy. If he's Ramsey, he has done the best thing he could have possibly done to avoid any risk. fArya may or may not meet Jon, and if she does Jon may do something, something else, who knows. The only thing the Boltons may be sure is that is a risky situation. The PL turns that risky situaation into a win-win situation. 

I was reading again the chapter when Jon and Sam are talking about the letter he should send to King's Landing. At the end they agree that given the circustances, that letter is a shield made of paper. Well, the PL may be the shield made of paper of the Boltons. Sure more aggressive, but I guess you may get what I mean...

 

 

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10 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I get why you would want to avoid discussion of who authored the letter, but by doing so I feel you loose the ability to see the true motive.

 

I just think that the purpose of the letter is not equal to the motive the author may have. The purpose serves the motive.

I want Jon to leave the wall (purpose) so that I can kill him (motive)

I want Jon to leave the wall (purpose) so that he may help me (motive)

That said, I generally believe that a tree is only a tree. But when it comes to the PL I honestly believe GRRM wanted to make of it the riddle it is. Does it mean Ramsey is not the author? I wouldn't say so. But I think whatever the case will turn out to be, a surprise is coming. Otherwise it will be anticlimatic. He setup a riddle and there must be a pay off. And that surprise may be that Roose is dead. Why not? Or that he wrote the PL, why not?

But the point of my post was just to focus on one detail. Well... maybe 2: the list of people and the purpose of the letter.

That because if we clear up those things, discussing elsewhere the different takes about the author, may be easer...

I mean, the explaination I gave as to why the author demands for those people, it's simple but at the same time it clarifies the letter's purpose, and that fits every theory. Other arguments should and have to be used pro or contra X, Y, or Z author... 

So I get your point, but my intent here was another.  I have my preferences, sure, but I'll try to discuss them elsewhere, in threads about the identity of the author. Even tho it's hard to resist. In fact...

10 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Thought I might supply a link. It's short. Three pages. Interesting none the less.

I knew that one. Like I said, I am 50%-50%. But if the author is not Ramsey/Roose, I believe is Mance mainly because of the text. Not because the PL describes events Mance saw (if he was tortured, then he spoke about them, so that's not the best argument that can be used pro him as the author), but becasue many of the words/phrases are words/phrases said by Mance or while Mance was present. You can quote them verbatim. And that's weird. I also think one should read again JON II of ASOS (when Jon and Mance arrive at the Fist of the First Man, in the aftermarth of the battle WW vs NW).

In addition... Mance doesn't need to hear Ramsey speaking about making clothes with skyn the day of the escape. He knows that is somethin a Bolton may do. Ygritte tells Jon, that Bael's son was killed by a Lord who made a cloak from his skyn...

@bemused first: In that conversation you quoted, we were discussing something else. A mistake I made: the letter in fact does not specify - as I wrongly said  - that the cage is outside WF. However, I also said before (not there) that is "according to the letter" and that is not that we have to 100% trust it. Mance may be in a cage, dead or alive and hidden, or alive and disguise as a Frey (Asha's fragment, anybody?, but that's another discussion).  I'd say, that the point of my post, is that it doesn't really matter what is true or false. But what's the goal of the author. What he wants (to force Jon to leave). Not how much credible he is.

That said, yes.... a conspiracy at Wall. There is surely one. And the conspirators may have read and used the letter to their advantage. But if they didn't need to modify it, because it was 100% fine to their scope, their job was easer and your theory more fluid, don't you think? One thing does not exclude the other. The author's motive may be one and that of the conspirators another. Still the conspirators benefited of the PL (and that's clear even now, at first glance).

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2 hours ago, lalt said:

I just think that the purpose of the letter is not equal to the motive the author may have. The purpose serves the motive.

I want Jon to leave the wall (purpose) so that I can kill him (motive)

I want Jon to leave the wall (purpose) so that he may help me (motive)

That said, I generally believe that a tree is only a tree. But when it comes to the PL I honestly believe GRRM wanted to make of it the riddle it is. Does it mean Ramsey is not the author? I wouldn't say so. But I think whatever the case will turn out to be, a surprise is coming. Otherwise it will be anticlimatic. He setup a riddle and there must be a pay off. And that surprise may be that Roose is dead. Why not? Or that he wrote the PL, why not?

But the point of my post was just to focus on one detail. Well... maybe 2: the list of people and the purpose of the letter.

That because if we clear up those things, discussing elsewhere the different takes about the author, may be easer...

I mean, the explaination I gave as to why the author demands for those people, it's simple but at the same time it clarifies the letter's purpose, and that fits every theory. Other arguments should and have to be used pro or contra X, Y, or Z author... 

So I get your point, but my intent here was another.  I have my preferences, sure, but I'll try to discuss them elsewhere, in threads about the identity of the author. Even tho it's hard to resist. In fact...

I knew that one. Like I said, I am 50%-50%. But if the author is not Ramsey/Roose, I believe is Mance mainly because of the text. Not because the PL describes events Mance saw (if he was tortured, then he spoke about them, so that's not the best argument that can be used pro him as the author), but becasue many of the words/phrases are words/phrases said by Mance or while Mance was present. You can quote them verbatim. And that's weird. I also think one should read again JON II of ASOS (when Jon and Mance arrive at the Fist of the First Man, in the aftermarth of the battle WW vs NW).

In addition... Mance doesn't need to hear Ramsey speaking about making clothes with skyn the day of the escape. He knows that is somethin a Bolton may do. Ygritte tells Jon, that Bael's son was killed by a Lord who made a cloak from his skyn...

@bemused first: In that conversation you quoted, we were discussing something else. A mistake I made: the letter in fact does not specify - as I wrongly said  - that the cage is outside WF. However, I also said before (not there) that is "according to the letter" and that is not that we have to 100% trust it. Mance may be in a cage, dead or alive and hidden, or alive and disguise as a Frey (Asha's fragment, anybody?, but that's another discussion).  I'd say, that the point of my post, is that it doesn't really matter what is true or false. But what's the goal of the author. What he wants (to force Jon to leave). Not how much credible he is.

That said, yes.... a conspiracy at Wall. There is surely one. And the conspirators may have read and used the letter to their advantage. But if they didn't need to modify it, because it was 100% fine to their scope, their job was easer and your theory more fluid, don't you think? One thing does not exclude the other. The author's motive may be one and that of the conspirators another. Still the conspirators benefited of the PL (and that's clear even now, at first glance).

The reason I have always felt so strongly it is Ramsay is because he is the only character who has motive to write the letter and I believe the highlighted portion of your comment here shows you missing that.  Sure Jon leaving WF could benefit Ramsay, Stannis, or Theon, that much is true, but none of them know Jon has a wildling army, so none of them has any reason to think he could gather a force and march to their aid/to fight them.  From any potential authors POV, if Jon leaves the wall he does it himself as a traitor to the watch, unless he is getting some sort of pardon from Stannis but that's besides the point, the point is he would be alone in any of their minds, so that motive for writing the letter falls apart.

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1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The reason I have always felt so strongly it is Ramsay is because he is the only character who has motive to write the letter and I believe the highlighted portion of your comment here shows you missing that.  Sure Jon leaving WF could benefit Ramsay, Stannis, or Theon, that much is true, but none of them know Jon has a wildling army, so none of them has any reason to think he could gather a force and march to their aid/to fight them.  From any potential authors POV, if Jon leaves the wall he does it himself as a traitor to the watch, unless he is getting some sort of pardon from Stannis but that's besides the point, the point is he would be alone in any of their minds, so that motive for writing the letter falls apart.

I don’t think so.

If Ramsey wrote it, then he tortured Mance. And he knows that the wildlings are at Wall, what happened as long as Mance was there too, etc... So speaking of Mance the way he did in that letter, is inviting them to joying Jon, the man that according to the letter, saved Mance in his fight vs the man who holds captive their... king.

Stannis and Mance, know that Mance is the only one who may keep together the wildlings. And that Jon is someone they may trust (see the scenes of the FF entering CB after the agreement) especially now that they know that he saved Mance. 

Sure Theon and Asha don’t  have any insight of that. And that’s another good reason to believe they dind’t write the letter, alone. That’s pretty much a given imo. Each one of them need at least Stannis.

However, sure I think that the purpose of the PL is to force Jon into doing what he was about to do. But surely any theory that is not pro Ramsey (or Rose) has other issues to overcome. But not the purpose/motive.

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11 minutes ago, lalt said:

I don’t think so.

If Ramsey wrote it, then he tortured Mance. And he knows that the wildlings are at Wall, what happened as long as Mance was there too, etc... So speaking of Mance the way he did in that letter, is inviting them to joying Jon, the man that according to the letter, saved Mance in his fight vs the man who holds captive their... king.

The FF at CB when Mance leaves w/ the spearwives to go find Arya are the ones Stannis let through after the battle. Tormund and his 3,000 only arrive after Mance has gone. 

11 minutes ago, lalt said:

Stannis and Mance, know that Mance is the only one who may keep together the wildlings. And that Jon is someone they may trust (see the scenes of the FF entering CB after the agreement) especially now that they know that he saved Mance. 

Only... they don’t know that. Jon read the PL, true. But all those assembled in the Shieldhall saw “Mance” burn and then be finished off at Jon’s command. They have no reason to believe “Mance” is alive. The only ones at CB who know about the Mance/Rattleshirt switcheroo are Jon and Mel, and maybe Jon told Tormund off page during their 2-hr convo. But that’s it. 

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17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

The FF at CB when Mance leaves w/ the spearwives to go find Arya are the ones Stannis let through after the battle. Tormund and his 3,000 only arrive after Mance has gone. 

Only... they don’t know that. Jon read the PL, true. But all those assembled in the Shieldhall saw “Mance” burn and then be finished off at Jon’s command. They have no reason to believe “Mance” is alive. The only ones at CB who know about the Mance/Rattleshirt switcheroo are Jon and Mel, and maybe Jon told Tormund off page during their 2-hr convo. But that’s it. 

Then why are they ready to follow Jon? 

The chapter doesn’t need to repeat the letter’s words twice and it’s not a description second after second of whatever happened.

But in the shillshall speech, Jon says “this creature that makes cloak from the skynes of women” more or less verbatim. If he does, that is because he read to those people the letter. Or because he told Tormund to spread the news. Whatever. Sure they know about it. Otherwise, they wouldn’t know at all what he was talking about.

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2 minutes ago, lalt said:

Then why are they ready to follow Jon? 

Because Jon let them through. Because they know Jon understands they’re not the enemy. 

The FF and others that Jon let through w/ Tormund didn’t join the NW, but most will be willing to stand w/ Jon. At this point Jon is their de facto king.

Jon Snow, King of Winter.

2 minutes ago, lalt said:

The chapter doesn’t need to repeat the letter’s words twice and it’s not a description second after second of whatever happened.

Not sure what you’re trying to say here.

2 minutes ago, lalt said:

But in the shillshall speech, Jon says “this creature that makes cloak from the skynes of women” more or less verbatim. If he does, that is because he read to those people the letter. Otherwise, they wouldn’t know at all what he was talking about.

Maybe you should re-read my previous post. 

This is what I said:

Jon read the PL, true”

So, again, yes, Jon did read the PL in the Shieldhall. That doesn’t change the fact that all those assembled there, crows and ff and queen’s men and whoever else, saw “Mance” die with their own eyes. They have no reason to not believe what they saw. 

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You asked why would the ff follow Jon, and I replied. 

I forgot to add this to my previous post:

“Amongst the stream of warriors were the fathers of many of Jon’s hostages. Some stared with cold dead eyes as they went by, fingering their sword hilts. Others smiled at him like long-lost kin, though a few of those smiles discomfited Jon Snow more than any glare. None knelt, but many gave him their oaths. “What Tormund swore, I swear,” declared black-haired Brogg, a man of few words. Soren Shieldbreaker bowed his head an inch and growled, “Soren’s axe is yours, Jon Snow, if ever you have need of such.

<snip>

Howd Wanderer swore his oath upon his sword, as nicked and pitted a piece of iron as Jon had ever seen. Devyn Sealskinner presented him with a sealskin hat, Harle the Huntsman with a bear-claw necklace. The warrior witch Morna removed her weirwood mask just long enough to kiss his gloved hand and swear to be his man or his woman, whichever he preferred. And on and on and on.”

 

.

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@lalt - I agree with @kissdbyfire in the above post. Jon has become de facto king of the FF by proving that he has their interests at heart and by being a strong leader. They follow strength ,as Mance told Jon. Furthermore, I think that Mance understands this and approves of it. If he survives, I think he will be quite OK with taking on a secondary role to Jon, like Tormund , first in support of Mance and now of Jon.

In regard to motives, I agree with you that GRRM intends ultimately to move Jon away from the wall, but I don't think this is the juncture. I suspect there will be a confrontation with Ramsay, not at WF or at the wall but some point in between.

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42 minutes ago, bemused said:

@lalt - I agree with @kissdbyfire in the above post. Jon has become de facto king of the FF by proving that he has their interests at heart and by being a strong leader. They follow strength ,as Mance told Jon. Furthermore, I think that Mance understands this and approves of it. If he survives, I think he will be quite OK with taking on a secondary role to Jon, like Tormund , first in support of Mance and now of Jon.

In regard to motives, I agree with you that GRRM intends ultimately to move Jon away from the wall, but I don't think this is the juncture. I suspect there will be a confrontation with Ramsay, not at WF or at the wall but some point in between.

And... I agree with you both on the subject Jon de facto King (and in fact I tried to mention in a post above the same scenes kiisdbythefire quoted).

However, I fundamentally do.

Still, that is not something that I believe is pivotal in a discussion about the PL.

To say it better: that the free folk may trust him or not, that is crucial in this dibate.

That the FF has already taken him or is ready to take him as a de facto King is a steep further, that may have played or not a part in the PL.

And I also agree that we're going to read about a confrotation/battle between Jon and Ramsey (or the Boltons). But that regardless who wrote the PL. The outcome is that and that is what the PL's author always wanted.

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ahh, my favorite topic :D.  I go back and forth between who the author of the PL is- it seems like there are mixed motives that could be ascribed to any of Ramsay, Mance, and/or Stannis.  I think we can all agree with the OP and the following posts that the purpose of the letter seems to be to provoke Jon to take some kind of action.  It is purposefully written as provocative, establishing Ramsay as a monster who will probably do terrible things to Arya if Jon does not return her to him (I think it is irrelevant whether the author of the PL honestly believes Arya is heading towards the Wall- again the purpose is to provoke Jon.)

The language used in the letter has always seemed to indicate Mance to me- the repeated use of bastard is straight out of Mance's playbook for provoking Jon and is in many ways central to their relationship - Jon's story about being a bastard is the basis for Mance accepting Jon's turning of his cloak and becoming a wildling.  Having said that, this also could be pure Ramsay, who even more than Jon is obsessed with his bastard status and would probably assume Jon is just as obsessed as him.  And you can't discount the inclusion of "Reek" in the letter, which is Ramsay all the way.

However, I still learn towards Mance because of one major thing- we are given information that Mance requested the spearwives to carry out a "certain ploy" that definitively seems separated from his rescue mission of Arya- he explicitly uses "and" when requesting the spearwives, which indicates in addition to the purpose of getting "Arya" to trust him he needs the spearwives for the "ploy" he intends to carry out.

Finally, one last thing is we can't discount the possibility that the letter was somehow tampered with at Castle Black or perhaps Eastwatch if it arrived there first (Eastwatch because we know as Jon notes that Hewett who is a Thorne lackey is in charge there).  I've always found Ghost's behavior interesting before Jon's death- he is agitated but he does not attack Bowen Marsh when he is with Jon.  Yet Ghost seems to have tried to attack Mully of all people, a steward who may have had access to the Pink Letter first.  

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19 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

the repeated use of bastard is straight out of Mance's playbook

It’s always interesting to see how different people read something and come to completely different conclusions. And no conclusion is better than the other, of course. But it is very interesting nonetheless. See, to me, the repeated use of “bastard” is one of the strong indicators that the author is indeed Ramsay. Ramsay, who hates being a bastard. Who now, after being made a Bolton, goes into a “black rage” when someone calls him Snow. IMO he wants to offend Jon, to insult him. And people tend to think that others are like them. Ramsay is so rattled by being reminded he is a bastard that in his eyes that’s a great way to push Jon’s buttons. 

ADwD, Reek

If I had a tail, the Bastard would have cut it off. The thought came unbidden, a vile thought, dangerous. His lordship was not a bastard anymore. Bolton, not Snow. The boy king on the Iron Throne had made Lord Ramsay legitimate, giving him the right to use his lord father’s name. Calling him Snow reminded him of his bastardy and sent him into a black rage. Reek must remember that.”

 

ADwD, The Turncloak 

The wounds Snow made, snow conceals, but that was wrong. Ramsay was a Bolton now, not a Snow, never a Snow.”

 

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6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It’s always interesting to see how different people read something and come to completely different conclusions. And no conclusion is better than the other, of course. But it is very interesting nonetheless. See, to me, the repeated use of “bastard” is one of the strong indicators that the author is indeed Ramsay. Ramsay, who hates being a bastard. Who now, after being made a Bolton, goes into a “black rage” when someone calls him Snow. IMO he wants to offend Jon, to insult him. And people tend to think that others are like them. Ramsay is so rattled by being reminded he is a bastard that in his eyes that’s a great way to push Jon’s buttons. 

ADwD, Reek

If I had a tail, the Bastard would have cut it off. The thought came unbidden, a vile thought, dangerous. His lordship was not a bastard anymore. Bolton, not Snow. The boy king on the Iron Throne had made Lord Ramsay legitimate, giving him the right to use his lord father’s name. Calling him Snow reminded him of his bastardy and sent him into a black rage. Reek must remember that.”

 

ADwD, The Turncloak 

The wounds Snow made, snow conceals, but that was wrong. Ramsay was a Bolton now, not a Snow, never a Snow.”

 

:DYeah, I mean like I said it could very well point to Ramsay as well as Mance.  

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