[SPOILERS] Family trees and successions

[Megorova]

@Lord Varys

Is there a new info in Rogare family tree?

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

@Lord Varys

Is there a new info in Rogare family tree?

Quite a lot, actually, and even more so about Lys and some of the offices and the justice system there.

Hopefully Dany visits the place before we get to Westeros.

[Paxter Redwyne]

I wonder if Septon Mattheus was really Gardener, or was he just boasting that his grandmother was one or that he descended from some cadet branch (Oldflowers maybe?).

[The hairy bear]

On 11/20/2018 at 9:56 PM, Lord Varys said:

Historians today simply don't know what people back in the day knew, and are unwilling for this or that reason to declare a person a bastard who - as far as they know - was never properly acknowledged as such.

I would agree with you in general, but in Orys Baratheon's particular case I think it's different. Most people or noble families would take offense if any maester called their ancestors bastards, or suggested that ladies of their houses were not loyal. So one should be very cautious when doing that.

But since the Targaryens are the royal family and considered half-gods by many, the Baratheons of Jaehaerys time would actually be interested in this story to be presented as the official truth. They probably would have made sure that this version was repeated, regardless of whether it was the actual truth, or a malicious defamation.

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I wonder if Septon Mattheus was really Gardener, or was he just boasting that his grandmother was one or that he descended from some cadet branch (Oldflowers maybe?).

He wasn't a Gardener. He claims to be descended from the Gardener kings. That means very likely that if he is descended from them - only a claim - that this is through the female line. And then he could be basically from any family of the Reach which had intermarried with the Gardeners in the last century or so. Considering his age - I guess he would have been born around the Conquest or shortly thereafter, he can be the son of some female relation of King Mern IX. Or is a more obscure relation.

For what it's worth I think the Florents - who are sourly lacking in this book, by the way - should be descended from a daughter or sister or granddaughter of Mern, sort of like Qhorin Volmark is descended from a younger sister of Harwyn Hardhand. That would give them really a good - or perhaps even the best - claim to Highgarden after House Gardener was extinct in the male line.

6 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

But since the Targaryens are the royal family and considered half-gods by many, the Baratheons of Jaehaerys time would actually be interested in this story to be presented as the official truth. They probably would have made sure that this version was repeated, regardless of whether it was the actual truth, or a malicious defamation.

In part this is correct, but keep in mind that Orys Baratheon - and he is basically the only guy who matters in the discussion because he is the one who could have actually pushed Aerion or Aegon to publicly acknowledge/declare him his bastard son/half-brother.

That this didn't happen could have a number of reasons. For one, a complex origin for Orys, in part revolving around the man he saw as legal father, in part around Orys' mother. Another point could just be that Lord Aerion died early and it was never actually confirmed to the satisfaction of both Aegon and Orys that they were, in fact, half-brother, despite the fact that saw each other and felt as such.

The other level might be Orys' own career - he ended up marrying Argella Durrandon, a former princess and queen (for a day, at least), establishing a new lordly house in his own right while continuing an ancient and prestigious line. Aegon's original offer to marry Orys to Argella was not exactly a success - precisely because of the rumors around Orys' heritage.

So perhaps they simply did not want to make this Baratheon a Waters (as he would have to be, presumably, as an acknowledged bastard) nor legitimize him as a Targaryen. Here could Orys' own pride of the Baratheon name and family come in - the name as such does not sound like peasant. Either it is some chosen name, or the name of Orys' mother or legal father. For whatever reason staying true to them may have been more important to him than officially become Lord Aerion's bastard.

Now, the Baratheons of Rogar's generations definitely had other interests, so this far down the route it may have been better if they had been officially declared a cadet branch of the royal family - but then, it would come with the stain of bastardy which they do not really have while grandfather Orys is just 'a rumored bastard'.

By the way, it is likely very interesting to see how those hidden bastards of Aegon IV are going to play out. He apparently never publicly acknowledged the Lothston heir or Lord Viserys Plumm as his children, yet this doesn't mean he may not have treated or referred to them as such.

Bastards are usually born out of wedlock. Children born in wedlock are the children of the spouses until the man says otherwise. And if there is an agreement between spouses (like possibly with Rhaenyra and Laenor/Harwin or with the Lothstons and Aegon) then nothing is going to be ever officially clear.

And if Jaehaerys I is correct and gifts were exchanged then Orys may actually have been one of those dragonseeds - Lord Aerion claiming the right of the First Night or something along those lines, meaning Orys' mother may actually have been married to another man and neither of them had the interest to publicly reveal that their child was actually fathered by Lord Aerion.

[Lord Varys]

Addendum on the Velaryons:

Quote

Though Daemon Velaryon, as the Crown’s lord admiral and master of ships, was in King’s Landing with the regents, that did not prevent Jaehaerys and Alysanne from flying their dragons to Driftmark and touring his shipyards, escorted by his sons, Corwyn, Jorgen, and Victor.

Can the native speakers perhaps figure out whether the comma before 'Corwyn' is giving a hint whether the grammar suggests that the sons listed are all the sons of Lord Daemon, or whether it means the sons listed are only the sons who escorted Jaehaerys and Alysanne, out of an unknown number of Velaryon sons?

In any case, I'm still somewhat confident that the Corwyn fellow is the father of Corlys Velaryon.

[Tha Shiznit]

Is there any information on Alyn and Addam childhood upbringing. Aren't Addam and Alyn just peasants, their education should be very little compared to a bastard raised in noblemen's household. I always wonder how did Alyn become such skilled admiral if his mother and maternal grandfather just raised him and his brother. Did Corlys Velaryon finance two brothers education and upbringing from afar. Bringing them a man-at-arms or a sworn sword to teach them arms and scribe for education; teaching them to read and write. 

[naseridrl]

We have Morion followed by Mara for the Martells.  But what their relation to each other was I don't think was mentioned.  Daughter is possible given Morion's father was referred to as old, but sister as well.  Perhaps Mara is Qoren's mother?  Does that work in the timeline?

[The Sleeper]

20 minutes ago, Tha Shiznit said:

Is there any information on Alyn and Addam childhood upbringing. Aren't Addam and Alyn just peasants, their education should be very little compared to a bastard raised in noblemen's household. I always wonder how did Alyn become such skilled admiral if his mother and maternal grandfather just raised him and his brother. Did Corlys Velaryon finance two brothers education and upbringing from afar. Bringing them a man-at-arms or a sworn sword to teach them arms and scribe for education; teaching them to read and write. 

For one Corlys was aware of their existence and prepared to recognize them and even make them his heirs, so it is not out of the question that he helped with their upbringing. Second, their mother was wealthy in her own right. All in all they were probably better raised than many noblemen. 

[Ran]

What @The Sleeper said -- her own wealth meant she could afford them an education, and certainly they would have learned her trade, which would have included what they needed to know to sail. And they had it in their blood, as it were, given the Velaryons.

[Lord Varys]

Yeah, thanks to their mother they learned the trade early, just as Corlys did back in the day. He started very early, too. Really like it how Daella pointed out that young Corlys liked his ships more than her. She wasn't the sharpest knife in the box but there she had a point...

[Ran]

Also worth noting that Alyn can read High Valyrian, which isn't normally necessary for a trader. So the education was definitely aimed at getting the brothers to maintain a higher class of life.

[Lord Varys]

Wouldn't surprise me one bit if Marilda eventually replaced that Peake fellow as Mistress of Ships - at least while Alyn was one of his voyages. Any idea who Aegon III's first true Hand will be, by the way? Alyn would be the most logical choice, but he is not there, and may not be there to take such an office while he goes on his voyages...

[Paxter Redwyne]

On 11/21/2018 at 9:37 AM, Ran said:

It's known already, but was caught too late for the first print. I'm not sure which name they went with as the final name, but would guess Royce.

So Olyver Baratheon name will be changed to Royce or Royce Caron will be changed to Olyver?

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

So Olyver Baratheon name will be changed to Royce or Royce Caron will be changed to Olyver?

The former would be much better considering it would be the lesser relevant change. One could also make Olyver Elenda's grandfather or brother instead of making him identical with Lord Royce Caron.

[Paxter Redwyne]

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The former would be much better considering it would be the lesser relevant change. One could also make Olyver Elenda's grandfather or brother instead of making him identical with Lord Royce Caron.

I think that would be a good idea. Only note about his birth would need to be changed. And to be honest i don't like name Royce. It sounds a bit silly since there is house Royce in the Vale.

[Blooddragon]

Has anyone made some trees?

[SirArthur]

On 11/20/2018 at 9:47 PM, Ran said:

No, George hasn't really written anything about them at all. All we know is that Baratheon was his surname, and apparently it wasn't a bastard name (since Waters is the bastard name) so either he won his own name at some point or in fact he had the name from his mother or perhaps his mother's husband/titular father.

adaption is a very common way to solve this problem.

I don't really consider it a problem, although I would think that a Baratheon mother would not lead to a Baratheon son, but a bastard son. 

Example: all of Robert's children, including Edric Storm

Ramsay Snow/Bolton

[Ran]

I think part of the reason behind the rumor is that name. It suggests that rather than be named a bastard, it was decided that the mother's husband claimed him as his own from the get-go.

[Lord Varys]

On the Orys thing:

When they discuss the First Night it seems there is a lot of hushing up done around the actual execution of the practice. It is not spread around and repeated if jealous husbands and family kill a notorious First Night rapist like Gargon the Guest, less this encourage other angry men (and women) to follow such examples.

This makes it not unlikely that children actually fathered during a First Night - i.e. technically in wedlock - were only rarely publicly acknowledged by the lordly or royal father. Bastards are born outside of wedlock, which means women giving birth to bastards are rarely married. If they are married their children are the children of their husbands unless the husband complains, like in the example of the Northern girl Alysanne talks about. Her husband knew/concluded he wasn't the father, but this *doesn't make* the child an acknowledged bastard of the lord in question. For that, the man would actually have to acknowledge the child as his. It may have happened occasionally if a child fathered that way greatly resembled the lord or king, but that's not a given.

Also, the whole tradition to brand children with bastard names is also a Westerosi tradition, one that may have not followed on Dragonstone before the Conquest.

In that sense, if Orys Baratheon was a dragonseed fathered during a First Night then gifts may have been exchanged and Aerion, the mother, and her husband may have known what was going on, but all three of them may have decided not to publicly announce anything about this.

Finally, I think the names of the early Baratheons (aside from Davos) all have a certain Valyrian sound to them, especially those which seem to be variations of Orys - Borys and Orryn. That could be a hint that the Baratheons were aware of their Valyrian ancestry - either through Lord Aerion or through Orys' mother - or perhaps even through their legal father (who may have been of Valyrian descent, too, if the name 'Baratheon' is an inherited Valyrian family name).