[SPOILERS] Family trees and successions

[LordSeaSnake]

For House Lannister, I suspect Lyman Lannister is a grandson of Loren the Last and perhaps the third Lord of Casterly Rock. We know that Loren's eldest son and heir was married to a Redwyne, while Lyman was married to Jocasta Tarbeck. Given the several decades between Loren's last mention and Lyman's first mention, it wouldn't be surprising if there was another Lord of Casterly Rock (Loren's heir) between them.

Lyman is mentioned having several sons himself, with a younger son once attempting to court Jeyne Westerling. He also had his comely bastard son, Ser Tyler Hill. While Lyman and his wife died in 59 AC to the Shivers, Ser Tymond Lannister was born in 60 AC. In 80 AC, he was the heir to Casterly Rock and by 101 AC, he was the Lord of Casterly Rock. Tymond is likely a grandson, or even great-grandson, of Lyman Lannister.

In 112 AC, Ser Jason and Tyland Lannister were vying for the favor of Princess Rhaenyra. I suspect that both twins are the sons of Tymond Lannister and Jason succeeded him as Lord of Casterly Rock at some point between 112 and 129 AC. While Tyland was childless, Jason had five daughters (including Cerelle and Tyshara), several natural daughters, and a son-Loreon Lannister, born in 127 AC.  When Jason died at the Battle at the Red Fork, Loreon succeeded him as Lord of Casterly Rock.

Finally, we have Ser Erwin Lannister, who attempted to recapture Fair Isle from the Red Kraken. His relation is unknown, though I suspect he is an uncle or first cousin to Jason and Tyland.

[The Wondering Wolf]

2 hours ago, LordSeaSnake said:

I suspect that both twins are the sons of Tymond

They could also be the grandsons since there would be enough space for another generation between 60 and around 96 AC (this is the MUSH date). I am not sure if we need to take Tyrion's thoughts in A Game of Thrones literal.

King Loren had escaped [the Field of Fire], and lived long enough to surrender, pledge his fealty to the Targaryens, and beget a son, for which Tyrion was duly grateful.

That would mean Loren fathered his heir only after the Conquest. In 47 AC Lord Lyman had a younger son who courted Jeyne Westerling. So this guy would have been born around 20 AC, indicating Lyman was born twenty years earlier and Loren's son. He could have been a second son or Jocasta Tarbeck was his second wife. Of course just if we need to take Tyrion's thoughts literal.

[Lord Varys]

If we buy Tyrion's quote about King Loren then Lord Lyman could indeed have been the son of Loren being born after the Conquest. In fact, I'd like that idea, considering this would allow us to imagine that Lord Lyman's eldest son and heir was born by his Redwyne wife, whereas his bastard Tyler Hill may have been born between his first and second marriage. The younger son courting Jeyne Westerling may have then been either a younger son by the Redwyne wife or by Jocasta Tarbeck.

It is odd that Lyman and Jocasta do not throw the heir of Casterly Rock or his son(s) on Rhaena but rather Tyler Hill and some of the younger sons. That implies the younger son courting Jeyne may have gotten another match already by the time Rhaena returned to Casterly Rock (else he would have been the one courting her, one assumes) and that Lyman's eldest son either had no sons yet, or those sons were not yet old enough to actually try to court a queen. It may also imply the younger sons of Lord Lyman also mentioned as possible matches for Rhaena were significantly younger than his already married sons - aside from Tyler Hill.

[LordSeaSnake]

Another interesting note, we have Lord Alan Tarly who was captured during the Battle of the Honeywine in 130 AC. In 131 AC, we have a mention of Lord Donald Tarly being the father of Samantha and Sansara Tarly. So Lord Alan must have died later in the Dance of the Dragons. For what it's worth, Ser Alan Beesbury, captured alongside Alan Tarly, is noted to have died in captivity in MUSH.

[Lord Varys]

19 hours ago, LordSeaSnake said:

Another interesting note, we have Lord Alan Tarly who was captured during the Battle of the Honeywine in 130 AC. In 131 AC, we have a mention of Lord Donald Tarly being the father of Samantha and Sansara Tarly. So Lord Alan must have died later in the Dance of the Dragons. For what it's worth, Ser Alan Beesbury, captured alongside Alan Tarly, is noted to have died in captivity in MUSH.

Actually, no, it seems more likely that Donald is the father of both Samantha Tarly Hightower and Alan Tarly. He would have been the one dead in 131 AC, not necessarily Lord Alan. Chances are that Lady Sam would not have suffered it if Ormund or Lyonel had harmed a Tarly in captivity...

[Megorova]

Funny thing, that in TWOIAF it was said, that Johanna Swann eventually became ruler of Lys in all but name, and now in F&B this - "Drazenko’s ties to Sunspear and Lysandro’s to the Iron Throne made the Rogares the princes of Lys in all but name", but it's still unknown, whether I was right or wrong with my theory, that Johanna Swann was Larra's mother.

[Lord Varys]

43 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Funny thing, that in TWOIAF it was said, that Johanna Swann eventually became ruler of Lys in all but name, and now in F&B this - "Drazenko’s ties to Sunspear and Lysandro’s to the Iron Throne made the Rogares the princes of Lys in all but name", but it's still unknown, whether I was right or wrong with my theory, that Johanna Swann was Larra's mother.

I assume that the Black Swan died around the time the Triarchy collapsed. Else the story there doesn't make much sense. She is still around the time Sharako Lohar is killed, but she may not have lived long thereafter.

[LordSeaSnake]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Actually, no, it seems more likely that Donald is the father of both Samantha Tarly Hightower and Alan Tarly. He would have been the one dead in 131 AC, not necessarily Lord Alan. Chances are that Lady Sam would have suffered it if Ormund or Lyonel had harmed a Tarly in captivity is not very likely.

That would make sense. In that context, we can also assume that Alan was the "son of Lord Tarly" that courted Princess Rhaenyra.

[Megorova]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I assume that the Black Swan died around the time the Triarchy collapsed. Else the story there doesn't make much sense. She is still around the time Sharako Lohar is killed, but she may not have lived long thereafter.

Which doesn't mean, that she wasn't Larra's mother. The Triarchy started to kidnap beautiful girls and boys since 109, and Larra was born in 115. If I'm not mistaken, two of Larra's brothers are older than her, and one is younger. If Johanna Swann was kidnapped in 109, then there was plenty of time for her to give birth to her two older sons, between the time of her kidnapping in 109 and time of Larra's birth in 115 (or maybe Larra and her three brothers have different mothers, maybe Lysandro Rogare had his own harem, similar to the one in which now lives ex-wife of Jorah Mormont, Lynesse Hightower). Also the fall of the Triarchy doesn't necessary mean death of all its ex-members. This is the entire paragraph with status of Rogares in Lys by the end of Triarchy's war:

Quote

Across the sea, the Daughters’ War finally reached its end. Racallio Ryndoon fled south to the Basilisk Isles with his remaining supporters; Lys, Tyrosh, and Myr divided the Disputed Lands; and the Dornish took dominion over most of the Stepstones. The Myrish suffered the greatest losses in these new arrangements, whilst the Archon of Tyrosh and the Princess of Dorne gained the most. In Lys, ancient houses fell and many a highborn magister was cast down and ruined, whilst others rose up to seize the reins of power. Chief amongst these was Lysandro Rogare and his brother Drazenko, architect of the Dornish alliance. Drazenko’s ties to Sunspear and Lysandro’s to the Iron Throne made the Rogares the princes of Lys in all but name.

Some participants of that war have suffered great loses and died, but not all of them. If Johanna was Lysandro's wife (or mistress in his harem), then even though the Triarchy has fallen, Johanna became a winner in that war, same as Lysandro and Drazenko.

So even though we have a new book, and more information about Rogares, there's still lots of unrevealed mysteries, like - who was Larra's mother, and what happened to Larra, after she left Viserys and returned to Lys <- I think, that this is VERY important for ASOIAF's further plot. For example, maybe, Sereney of Lys is Larra Rogare, then Shiera Seastar is a fruit of incest between mother and son. And because by many characters in ASOIAF-universe, incest is seen as a great sin, then it in itself is an explanation of why Shiera is evil, treacherous and manipulative by nature. She is shadowbinder Quaithe and has kidnapped Dany's baby, she is the Three-eyed Crow and has binded Bloodraven to the Weirwood, and lured Bran beyond The Wall, and used to be Euron's teacher in black magic, etc. Also if Larra was half-Swann, then all modern Targaryens and Blackfyres are partially Swanns. So if Varys and fAegon are Blackfyres, then they are bloodrelated to Kingsguard Balon Swann, which means, that Balon is, probably, working for Varys, and thus will kill princess Myrcella. Also if Swanns were bloodrelated to Blackfyres, then, maybe, it's a huge clue from GRRM, that Barristan Selmy was serving as squire to Lord Swann, and then in 281 has saved Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa (who, maybe, was Shiera Seastar in shadow-glamour, and prepared for Jeyne a love potion to seduce Barristan, for the two of them to conceive the Prince that was promised) from Kingswood Brotherhood, at about the same time, when in KL was conceived Elia's Aegon, when the comet was passing in the sky above them. Because now Barristan is with Dany, and soon Dany will meet fAegon and his caretaker, septa Lemore (le more in French means blackberries, and this berry in ASOIAF is associated with lies, deception and Blackfyres). Maybe, septa Lemore is Lady Jeyne Swann, and thus fAegon is her and Barristan's child. Or, maybe, I'm wrong and see something, where there's nothing 

[Lord Varys]

Lysandro had legitimate and illegitimate children, but there is no indication whatsoever that Larra Rogare was one of the illegitimate children. Lysandro's wife wouldn't have been the Black Swan, nor does it make much sense that a woman called the Black Swan would give birth to children with silver-gold hair.

[El-Daddy]

The inclusion of so many characters who had previously only been in the MUSH is very interesting (the Four Storms, Quenton Corbray, Qyle and Coryanne Martell, many more). The MUSH also has Bloody Ben Blackwood marrying Ellyn Baratheon, which has yet to occur in Fire & Blood. Quenton is mentioned to being explicitly Leowyn Corbray's son in the MUSH, yet only as Corwyn's nephew in F&B.. but I'd say we could safely say he is Leowyn's son, considering he is the heir. Similarly, Qyle and Coryanne are never mentioned to being twins in F&B, yet are in the MUSH.

I'd love if there was a list of characters from the MUSH of people that had been taken from GRRMs notes, as opposed to characters created for the MUSH itself.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, El-Daddy said:

I'd love if there was a list of characters from the MUSH of people that had been taken from GRRMs notes, as opposed to characters created for the MUSH itself.

Yeah, I already told @Ran to perhaps mark that in those appendices by using italics for George's characters, say.

It seems Garmund Hightower didn't make it into the MUSH.

[Ran]

A part of our agreement with GRRM is not to say what information on our game is from him, so we won't be doing that.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

A part of our agreement with GRRM is not to say what information on our game is from him, so we won't be doing that.

Oh, okay, that's unfortunate.

Can you comment on whether things you invented for the MUSH were adopted by George for either FaB or TWoIaF? For instance, we first read about Princess Rhaena's betrothal to the Sealord of Braavos in the MUSH and it seems that tidbit later is mentioned in passing in TWoIaF.

[Ran]

That would be saying whether information is from him or not.

[Megorova]

45 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

nor does it make much sense that a woman called the Black Swan would give birth to children with silver-gold hair.

1. Elia Martell had dark hair, but her Aegon had silver-gold.

2. Betha Blackwood was dark-haired, but out of her five children only one (Duncan) was dark-haired.

3. Mariah Martell was dark-haired, and out of her four children only Baelor was dark-haired.

4. Rhaenys Targaryen, wife of Corlys Velaryon, was dark-haired, same as her own mother, Jocelyn Baratheon, but Rhaeny's daughters, Rhaena and Aerea, had silver-gold hair -

"One of those lost was Aerea Targaryen. On the night of Lord Rogar’s dismissal, Ser Ronnal Baratheon and a dozen of his men forced their way into her chambers in the Red Keep, intending to take her with them…only to find that Queen Alyssa had stolen a march on them. The girl was already gone, and her servants knew not where. It would be learned later that Lord Corbray had removed her, at the Queen Regent’s command. Dressed in the rags of a common girl of the lowest order, with her silver-gold hair dyed a muddy brown, Princess Aerea would spend the rest of the regency working in a stable near the King’s Gate."

Also who knows, why exactly was Johanna called the Black Swan, maybe, it wasn't because of her hair color. Take for example Myles Toyne, also known as Blackheart, he was called Blackheart not because of his heart's color, his heart was blood-red, and he wasn't a bad person (at least Jon Connington thought that Myles was a good person).

But even if Johanna Swann was dark-haired, it doesn't mean, that she couldn't have children with silver-gold hair. Their father was Lyseni, so 50% of their genes were Valyrian. And who knows, who were Johanna's ancestors. Maybe, her mother or grandparents were from Andal families (Andals were blond, like Lannisters, Arryns, Vaiths, Yronwoods. It was written in TWOIAF and in one of Bran's chapters, that Andals were a race of tall fair-haired warriors. Fair means light, so Andals had lightly-colored hair). Swanns are from Stormlands, but their castle, Stonehelm, is located in Dornish Marches. Many Houses in Dornish Marches and mountains are Andals and Stony Dornishmen - blond, and blond or brown (from Wikia):

"Stony Dornishmen live in the passes and heights of the Red Mountains. They have the most Andal and First Men blood.^[4][5] Some stony Dornishmen might follow Andal rather than Rhoynar laws of inheritance.^[7] They are fair of skin, freckle or burn in the sun, and have brown or blond hair.^[4][5] These include the Yronwoods with their blond hair and blue eyes,^[8] the yellow-haired Fowlers,^[9] and the pale blond or dark-haired Daynes."

And Tarth is not that far from Stonehelm. Brienna Tarth has light-colored hair.

So, maybe, Swanns were intermarrying with Houses such as Tarth, Yronwood, Fowler, Vaith, Dayne, Arryn and Lannister <- why not? -> Swanns were second greatest House of Stormlands after Baratheons, so it's likely, that they were marrying with important Houses of 7K.

So, maybe, Johanna Swann was dark-haired, maybe, she wasn't, but also it's likely, that either her mother or her grandparents were carriers of "blond"-genes. So Johanna herself, possibly, was dark-haired, but could have had light-haired children.

Thus her nickname - Black Swan of Lys - means nothing for looks of her children.

[Bernie Mac]

My thoughts on the Mountain Clans were they were more nuisance than serious threat but twice in fire and blood they disposed of a Lord and his heir;

1. Rodrik Arryn, Lord of the Eyrie and Defender of the Vale, was a boy of ten, having come untimely into his lordship after the deaths of his uncle Lord Darnold and his sire Ser Rymond at the hands of the wildling raiders they had unwisely pursued into the Mountains of the Moon.

2. The Maiden of the Vale, Lady Jeyne Arryn, was five-and-thirty, twenty years his senior. Never wed, Lady Jeyne had reigned over the Vale since the death of her father and elder brothers at the hands of the Stone Crows of the hills when she was three.

 

 

[Paxter Redwyne]

46 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

My thoughts on the Mountain Clans were they were more nuisance than serious threat but twice in fire and blood they disposed of a Lord and his heir;

1. Rodrik Arryn, Lord of the Eyrie and Defender of the Vale, was a boy of ten, having come untimely into his lordship after the deaths of his uncle Lord Darnold and his sire Ser Rymond at the hands of the wildling raiders they had unwisely pursued into the Mountains of the Moon.

2. The Maiden of the Vale, Lady Jeyne Arryn, was five-and-thirty, twenty years his senior. Never wed, Lady Jeyne had reigned over the Vale since the death of her father and elder brothers at the hands of the Stone Crows of the hills when she was three.

 

 

They also killed Lord Regent's son and heir, Robert Rowan. They sure seem to be a big threat in the Vale. I wonder how much land do they control.

[Lord Varys]

Honestly, I just think George dropped the ball on how many Arryns were killed by clansmen when inventing causes of death for various Arryns. I mean, those blasted serpentine steps killed two old guys in exactly the same manner, which also shows a lack of imagination there.

Overall, though, the Arryns getting themselves seem to have been overly courageous/stupid - just like Walton Stark was. Pursuing the clansmen on their own land, possibly with only small retinue can get you killed, especially if you get too far into their territory.

But honestly, why the hell there are still any clansmen after thousands of years is way beyond me. Surely the Arryns could have used the average long, hot summer make a string of successful and victorious campaigns into the mountains, make a peace afterwards, and settle the survivors somewhere in the Vale, civilizing them in the process. That shouldn't have been that hard.

People must be utter morons to basically ignore the neighbors who tend to get very desperate/dangerous in winter during spring/summer/autumn, no?

[Paxter Redwyne]

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Honestly, I just think George dropped the ball on how many Arryns were killed by clansmen when inventing causes of death for various Arryns. I mean, those blasted serpentine steps killed two old guys in exactly the same manner, which also shows a lack of imagination there.

Overall, though, the Arryns getting themselves seem to have been overly courageous/stupid - just like Walton Stark was. Pursuing the clansmen on their own land, possibly with only small retinue can get you killed, especially if you get too far into their territory.

But honestly, why the hell there are still any clansmen after thousands of years is way beyond me. Surely the Arryns could have used the average long, hot summer make a string of successful and victorious campaigns into the mountains, make a peace afterwards, and settle the survivors somewhere in the Vale, civilizing them in the process. That shouldn't have been that hard.

People must be utter morons to basically ignore the neighbors who tend to get very desperate/dangerous in winter during spring/summer/autumn, no?

Well, your answer lies in your first paragraph: GRRM probably didn't thought out that well.