Paxter Redwyne Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 @Ran Do you know how many children had each of Rogar's brothers besides Orryn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 17 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said: @Ran Do you know how many children had each of Rogar's brothers besides Orryn? Not something I can discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grey Wolf Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 53 minutes ago, Ran said: Not something I can discuss. Spoiler? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 30 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said: Spoiler? Most likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grey Wolf Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Blue Falcon said: Most likely. But why? The Baratheon family tree during Jaehaerys I's reign hardly strikes me as spoiler material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 14 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said: But why? The Baratheon family tree during Jaehaerys I's reign hardly strikes me as spoiler material. Maybe they are connected with some characters in Essos in the main series or maybe they'll set rings in motion to affect the development in the main series? I don't pretend to know but I am pretty sure its spoiler material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grey Wolf Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 @Ran Care to clarify? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bael's Bastard Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 14 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said: But why? The Baratheon family tree during Jaehaerys I's reign hardly strikes me as spoiler material. If it hasn't been published he might not be permitted to reveal it, regardless of whether it is a spoiler or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grey Wolf Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 7 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said: If it hasn't been published he might not be permitted to reveal it, regardless of whether it is a spoiler or not. That makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paxter Redwyne Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 3 hours ago, Ran said: Not something I can discuss. I hoped it was stated somewhere in the book and I have missed it, but oh well, I guess we will just have to deal with indefinite number of Rogar's nephews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-Daddy Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 11 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said: "“We are,” Lord Rogar responded. “Your Grace is more than just.” Then he asked if the king would require hostages of him, as a surety of his future loyalty. Three of his brothers had young children who could be sent to court, he pointed out." Actually it looks like all his brothers had children. Sorry, just for clarity, what gives you the impression that all four of his brothers had young children? There is the direct quote "Three of his brothers had young children".. and then, are you adding in Orryn's daughter as well as that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paxter Redwyne Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 18 minutes ago, El-Daddy said: Sorry, just for clarity, what gives you the impression that all four of his brothers had young children? There is the direct quote "Three of his brothers had young children".. and then, are you adding in Orryn's daughter as well as that? You realize that quote comes before Orryn was exiled to Essos and married a daughter of Tyroshi Archont? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-Daddy Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 2 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said: You realize that quote comes before Orryn was exiled to Essos and married a daughter of Tyroshi Archont? Yes, that's what I was referring to Just seeing if we were both talking about the same thing. I'm almost finished my family tree for the Fire & Blood time period. I'll add it soon enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-Daddy Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Link here if above image not working. This is my (preliminary!) family tree of all known related characters in the timeframe of Fire & Blood: Vol 1. I previously had (most) of this tree as part of my overall ASOIAF tree, but all of the additions from F&B are from pre: Daeron I, so I am posting a truncated version instead, which leaves out any later characters, as I have no updates for them. The following in the spoiler is a list of all of the new connections that I have been able to find, in the text of Fire & Blood. This is compared to previously known information, from either the main series, the novellas, A World of Ice and Fire, or GRRM readings. Spoiler Aethon Velaryon = Aethan Velaryon (spelling change/correction) Robar Baratheon = Rogar Baratheon (spelling change/correction) Rhalla Targaryen = Rhaella Targaryen (spelling change/correction) Elinor Costayne had three sons by Theo Bolling before marrying Maegor, and became the Mother of the Lannisport motherhouse in later life. ---- Samwell is name of Benjicot Blackwood's father / "Black" Aly's brother [not actually included in this tree] ---- Lyonel Strong has a bastard daughter, Alys Rivers. Simon Strong is uncle to Lyonel Strong. Simon has sons and grandsons. ---- Cregan stark had a younger brother, who Jacaerys reminded Cregan of. Cregan is also said to have at least one bastard daughter [not on this tree] ---- Aenar the Exile had other wives, and had siblings Elaena Targaryen marries Androw Farman, second son of Marq Farman. Elder son is Franklyn Farman. Sister is Elissa Farman. Elissa is older than Androw by 3 years. Marq Farman has a dead father and elder brother. Birth order of Jaehaerys' children - I - Aegon II - Daenerys (Aeryn) III - Aemon IV - Baelon V - Alyssa VI - Maegelle VII - Archmaester Vaegon (the Dragonless) VIII - Daella IX - Saera X - Viserra XI - Gaemon XII - Valerion XIII - Gael Alyssa Targaryen and Baelon had a third son, Aegon, who died shortly after birth. Saera has at least three sons, by various different men. --- Rogar Baratheon was the eldest of five brothers. Other brothers - Borys, Garon, Ronnal, Orryn He had a previous wife who died young. Rogar has other nephews and nieces. Ronnal has two daughters, and sons. Orryn marries the daughter of the Archon of Tyrosh and has a daughter. Rogar's son is Boremund. Boremund's son is Borros. Borros marries Elenda Caron, daughter of Royce Caron Children of Borros - Cassandra, Ellyn, Floris, Maris, Olyver (?) Cassandra marries Walter Brownhill. Walter has sixteen children by other wives. Floris marries Thaddeus Rowan. Thaddeus' eldest son is called Robert, and has other sons. Thaddeus Rowan has more than one nephew. Elenda re-marries to Steffon Connington, second son to the Lord of Griffin's Roost. ---- Rodrik Arryn has four children by his first wife. Elys (eldest, and daughter). Amanda other daughter. Two other sons. --- Leowyn is the elder brother of Corwyn Corbray (Corwyn is called a second son). Corwyn has two daughters from an earlier marriage. Leowyn has a son Quenton who is Lord of Heart's Home, and he must be Leowyn's son as Corwyn is the second son and would inherit otherwise. --- Alyssa Velaryon, wife of Aenys I - her parents are Aethan Velary and Alarra Massey. Aethan's brother is Corlys who was in the Kingsguard. Rhaena (daughter of Alyssa) has a cousin Larissa Velaryon. However, we don't know what kind of cousin she is. Rhaena has a cousin and Daemon has a niece Lianna. So she must be a first cousin, and not child of Daemon or Alyssa. Alyssa's brother is Daemon Velaryon. His sons are Corwyn, Jorgen and Victor. He has at least four daughters. Corwyn is the father of Corlys. (?) This is taking Corwyn to be the eldest, as he is first mentioned. This is what happens 90% of the time. Corlys has at least two brothers, A and B. Brother A's son is Vaemond. Brother B has five sons (they have their tongues removed). Vaemond has sons - Daemion and Daeron. Daemion was married to Hazel Harte and is the father of Daenaera. Two of the five sons of Brother B are Malentine and Rhogar. Marilda is called "Mouse" --- Manfred Hightower is the [elderly] Lord of Oldtown at the time of Aegon I, is old, and has at least three younger sons. Younger son A is in the Warrior's Sons, and B is a Septon. His heir is Addam, and Addam has another younger brother called Garmon, who dies. He also has at least two daughters. At time of Maegor there is a different Manfred Hightower, Lord of Oldtown. He is grandson of the first Manfred. The younger Manfred has a son and heir Martyn, and a daughter Ceryse, who marries Maegor. Ceryse is niece to the High Septon, who must be a brother to the younger Manfred. Manfred and High Septon also have a sister Patrice. Martyn and Ceryse also have a brother Morgan, who is younger than Martyn Martyn has an aunt Patrice, who must be sister to Manfred. At the time when Jaehaerys was young, the Lord of Oldtown is Donnel "the Delayer". Donnel has (at least), a younger brother and two nephews. However we don't know how any of these are related to Ormund, Otto or Martyn exactly. Otto Hightower is younger brother to the Lord of Oldtown. His nephew is Ormund Hightower, Lord of Oldtown. Otto has a wife and children, including his daughter Alicent and son Gwayne (younger than Alicent, described as her "youngest brother") Ormund Hightower has three sons by his first wife - Lyonel, Martyn and Garmund. He then marries Samantha Tarly. He also has a daughter Bethany. Garmund marries Rhaena Targaryen who gives him six daughters [this does not occur in the timeframe of F&B but I included it) Lyonel has a cousin Myles Hightower (of unknown degree) Samantha Tarly marries the eldest son Lyonel and has six children by him Samantha's parents are Donald Tarly and Jeyne Rowan. Samantha has a sister Sansara. Alan Tarly is Lord of Horn Hill around this time but we do not know how he is related. Probably son of Donald Tarly. --- Lucas Harroway has sons, brothers and nephews. Has daughters Alys, Jeyne and Hanna. ---- Aliandra Martell has younger siblings Qyle and Coryanne (twins in MUSH, but can't be included here) ---- Lysandro has six sons, three daughters and sixteen bastards Brother - Drazenko Sons - Lysaro, Drako, Fredo, Moredo, Lotho Roggerio Daughters - Lysara, Marra, Larra Lysaro has a wife and daughters Fredo also has daughters Larra is the youngest daughter, but not marked as such, so that the tree is easier to read. ---- Alarra Massey is probably daughter of Triston Massey. Lucifer is probably son of Triston Massey Horas Harroway is the son, brother or nephew of Lucas Velaena Velaryon is probably a sister to Daemon Velaryon As always, this is open to correction, so if you see any errors or omissions, please feel free to let me know. I'd be happy to fix any mistakes so I can get this thing as correct as possible. As said, the above list of all new connected characters I could find in F&B. Not much info on the Arryns unfortunately, and we are just missing a small amount of be able to link of the Hightowers properly. Edit - just have seen the info about Rodrik Arryn! His uncle and father are mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-Daddy Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 duplicate post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted December 12, 2018 Author Share Posted December 12, 2018 32 minutes ago, El-Daddy said: Link here if above image not working. This is my (preliminary!) family tree of all known related characters in the timeframe of Fire & Blood: Vol 1. I previously had (most) of this tree as part of my overall ASOIAF tree, but all of the additions from F&B are from pre: Daeron I, so I am posting a truncated version instead, which leaves out any later characters, as I have no updates for them. The following in the spoiler is a list of all of the new connections that I have been able to find, in the text of Fire & Blood. This is compared to previously known information, from either the main series, the novellas, A World of Ice and Fire, or GRRM readings. Reveal hidden contents Aethon Velaryon = Aethan Velaryon (spelling change/correction) Robar Baratheon = Rogar Baratheon (spelling change/correction) Rhalla Targaryen = Rhaella Targaryen (spelling change/correction) Elinor Costayne had three sons by Theo Bolling before marrying Maegor, and became the Mother of the Lannisport motherhouse in later life. ---- Samwell is name of Benjicot Blackwood's father / "Black" Aly's brother [not actually included in this tree] ---- Lyonel Strong has a bastard daughter, Alys Rivers. Simon Strong is uncle to Lyonel Strong. Simon has sons and grandsons. ---- Cregan stark had a younger brother, who Jacaerys reminded Cregan of. Cregan is also said to have at least one bastard daughter [not on this tree] ---- Aenar the Exile had other wives, and had siblings Elaena Targaryen marries Androw Farman, second son of Marq Farman. Elder son is Franklyn Farman. Sister is Elissa Farman. Elissa is older than Androw by 3 years. Marq Farman has a dead father and elder brother. Birth order of Jaehaerys' children - I - Aegon II - Daenerys (Aeryn) III - Aemon IV - Baelon V - Alyssa VI - Maegelle VII - Archmaester Vaegon (the Dragonless) VIII - Daella IX - Saera X - Viserra XI - Gaemon XII - Valerion XIII - Gael Alyssa Targaryen and Baelon had a third son, Aegon, who died shortly after birth. Saera has at least three sons, by various different men. --- Rogar Baratheon was the eldest of five brothers. Other brothers - Borys, Garon, Ronnal, Orryn He had a previous wife who died young. Rogar has other nephews and nieces. Ronnal has two daughters, and sons. Orryn marries the daughter of the Archon of Tyrosh and has a daughter. Rogar's son is Boremund. Boremund's son is Borros. Borros marries Elenda Caron, daughter of Royce Caron Children of Borros - Cassandra, Ellyn, Floris, Maris, Olyver (?) Cassandra marries Walter Brownhill. Walter has sixteen children by other wives. Floris marries Thaddeus Rowan. Thaddeus' eldest son is called Robert, and has other sons. Thaddeus Rowan has more than one nephew. Elenda re-marries to Steffon Connington, second son to the Lord of Griffin's Roost. ---- Rodrik Arryn has four children by his first wife. Elys (eldest, and daughter). Amanda other daughter. Two other sons. --- Leowyn is the elder brother of Corwyn Corbray (Corwyn is called a second son). Corwyn has two daughters from an earlier marriage. Leowyn has a son Quenton who is Lord of Heart's Home, and he must be Leowyn's son as Corwyn is the second son and would inherit otherwise. --- Alyssa Velaryon, wife of Aenys I - her parents are Aethan Velary and Alarra Massey. Aethan's brother is Corlys who was in the Kingsguard. Rhaena (daughter of Alyssa) has a cousin Larissa Velaryon. However, we don't know what kind of cousin she is. Rhaena has a cousin and Daemon has a niece Lianna. So she must be a first cousin, and not child of Daemon or Alyssa. Alyssa's brother is Daemon Velaryon. His sons are Corwyn, Jorgen and Victor. He has at least four daughters. Corwyn is the father of Corlys. (?) This is taking Corwyn to be the eldest, as he is first mentioned. This is what happens 90% of the time. Corlys has at least two brothers, A and B. Brother A's son is Vaemond. Brother B has five sons (they have their tongues removed). Vaemond has sons - Daemion and Daeron. Daemion was married to Hazel Harte and is the father of Daenaera. Two of the five sons of Brother B are Malentine and Rhogar. Marilda is called "Mouse" --- Manfred Hightower is the [elderly] Lord of Oldtown at the time of Aegon I, is old, and has at least three younger sons. Younger son A is in the Warrior's Sons, and B is a Septon. His heir is Addam, and Addam has another younger brother called Garmon, who dies. He also has at least two daughters. At time of Maegor there is a different Manfred Hightower, Lord of Oldtown. He is grandson of the first Manfred. The younger Manfred has a son and heir Martyn, and a daughter Ceryse, who marries Maegor. Ceryse is niece to the High Septon, who must be a brother to the younger Manfred. Manfred and High Septon also have a sister Patrice. Martyn and Ceryse also have a brother Morgan, who is younger than Martyn Martyn has an aunt Patrice, who must be sister to Manfred. At the time when Jaehaerys was young, the Lord of Oldtown is Donnel "the Delayer". Donnel has (at least), a younger brother and two nephews. However we don't know how any of these are related to Ormund, Otto or Martyn exactly. Otto Hightower is younger brother to the Lord of Oldtown. His nephew is Ormund Hightower, Lord of Oldtown. Otto has a wife and children, including his daughter Alicent and son Gwayne (younger than Alicent, described as her "youngest brother") Ormund Hightower has three sons by his first wife - Lyonel, Martyn and Garmund. He then marries Samantha Tarly. He also has a daughter Bethany. Garmund marries Rhaena Targaryen who gives him six daughters [this does not occur in the timeframe of F&B but I included it) Lyonel has a cousin Myles Hightower (of unknown degree) Samantha Tarly marries the eldest son Lyonel and has six children by him Samantha's parents are Donald Tarly and Jeyne Rowan. Samantha has a sister Sansara. Alan Tarly is Lord of Horn Hill around this time but we do not know how he is related. Probably son of Donald Tarly. --- Lucas Harroway has sons, brothers and nephews. Has daughters Alys, Jeyne and Hanna. ---- Aliandra Martell has younger siblings Qyle and Coryanne (twins in MUSH, but can't be included here) ---- Lysandro has six sons, three daughters and sixteen bastards Brother - Drazenko Sons - Lysaro, Drako, Fredo, Moredo, Lotho Roggerio Daughters - Lysara, Marra, Larra Lysaro has a wife and daughters Fredo also has daughters Larra is the youngest daughter, but not marked as such, so that the tree is easier to read. ---- Alarra Massey is probably daughter of Triston Massey. Lucifer is probably son of Triston Massey Horas Harroway is the son, brother or nephew of Lucas Velaena Velaryon is probably a sister to Daemon Velaryon As always, this is open to correction, so if you see any errors or omissions, please feel free to let me know. I'd be happy to fix any mistakes so I can get this thing as correct as possible. As said, the above list of all new connected characters I could find in F&B. Not much info on the Arryns unfortunately, and we are just missing a small amount of be able to link of the Hightowers properly. Larissa Velaryon is missing, as are Rodrik Arryn's father and uncle. There are also brothers and cousins of Alyssa Velaryon's confirmed, meaning that Daemon had more than one brother, and Aethan more than just two sons. The same goes for the younger daughter of Gaemon the Glorious. Tentatively, I think, one could make Daemon (I) Velaryon and Valaena Velaryon siblings, giving both of them that mystery Targaryen mother. I'd not try to reflect the 'true parentage' of the mystery children in such a tree - Harwin Strong can be in the tree as a paramour of Rhaenyra Targaryen, but I'd not make it explicit that he is confirmed to be the father of her children. Then said children would indeed be Strongs - or rather: Waters or Rivers - than Velaryons. But they are Velaryons. The same goes for Addam and Alyn of Hull. They were legitimized as Laenor Velaryon's children, not the Sea Snake's. The Baratheons can also be seen tentatively as descendants of Lord Aerion, but that's not confirmed either. Perhaps it might be good use another line for 'alleged children' to mark such relationships? We can also reasonably assume that Jeyne Arryn was the daughter of Lord Rodrik's elder son whereas the Mad Heir Ser Arnold (and his son) were the descendants of Lord Rodrik's younger son. Arnold was a first cousin of Jeyne Arryn. Considering that Rodrik's children - aside from Elys - seem to be young enough that Daella can play the role of a mother there without it being completely ridiculous it seems to be very unlikely that there is another generation between Rodrik and Jeyne's father. And the fact that she has brothers who are old enough to fight at their father's side at the time of their deaths also seems to support this. In the end, I'd add Naerys and the children of Aegon III and Daenaera if you also have Garmund Hightower's six daughters by Rhaena. The last of the latter could very well have been born after Aegon III's youngest daughter Elaena. Tentatively I'd also make Davos Baratheon the father of Lord Rogar. He is the only son of Orys we know, and he is the one being rewarded by King Aenys for the victory against the Vulture King, along with a string of men and women who are all ruling lords and ladies, making it very likely indeed that Davos Baratheon was the son and heir and successor of Orys One-Hand as Lord of Storm's End. And considering Rogar's age we can even say that his father was very likely the first born child of Orys and Argella. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-Daddy Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Thanks for your comments! The tree (and older, larger ones I have made), are not really meant to be taken "in-universe", so to speak. I do my best to be as objective as I can, but in some instances I take some small liberties. In the main series, are Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen the children of Cersei and Robert? Of course not. But they are still known as "Baratheon", even if they are actually bastards. For this reason I have Jacerys, Lucerys and Joffrey down as being the children of Breakbones, but also with the Velaryon surname. The implication of the parentage to the reader is made obvious, as is the case with Addam and Alyn. In other cases where it is not made obvious (the Dragonknight being the father of Daeron and Daenerys), I kept it as the "official line", as there is no clear implication or narrative made. 3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Larissa Velaryon is missing, as are Rodrik Arryn's father and uncle. There are also brothers and cousins of Alyssa Velaryon's confirmed, meaning that Daemon had more than one brother, and Aethan more than just two sons. I mention Larissa in the notes. She is indeed mentioned as a "cousin" of Rhaena Targaryen, but unfortunately no explicit relationship can be confirmed. We don't know if she is a first cousin, or second cousin. With Liana Velaryon, we have confirmation that she is both cousin to Rhaena, and niece to Daemon, so she must be a first cousin, and is included Rodrik Arryn's father and uncle is one that I forgot, and they can be added. I edited the earlier post while you were typing your message! Great spot nonetheless. Would you be able to point out to me please where the brothers / cousins of Alyssa are confirmed? Just looking for a quote or context. Or even the basic gist of where it was in the book. I'd gladly add them in after I find it. 3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: The same goes for the younger daughter of Gaemon the Glorious. Tentatively, I think, one could make Daemon (I) Velaryon and Valaena Velaryon siblings, giving both of them that mystery Targaryen mother. I didn't include this "younger daughter" of Gaemon, as it is mentioned in the text purely in the context of someone trying to prove / falsify a relationship between themselves and Gaemon - we don't have proof anywhere else of this daughter even existing, and it would have been beneficial for the claimer to invent her. The same story goes with the man purporting to be the bastard son of Maegor. This is not the case with Saera's sons however. I agree that Daemon (I) and Valaena are very very likely to be siblings, but unfortunately it hasn't been confirmed. As well as that, Aethan and Daemon are mentioned a few times as being great early allies and supporters of Aegon, but not once mentioned as uncle or cousin. Still though, they probably are siblings. 3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: I'd not try to reflect the 'true parentage' of the mystery children in such a tree - Harwin Strong can be in the tree as a paramour of Rhaenyra Targaryen, but I'd not make it explicit that he is confirmed to be the father of her children. Then said children would indeed be Strongs - or rather: Waters or Rivers - than Velaryons. But they are Velaryons. The same goes for Addam and Alyn of Hull. They were legitimized as Laenor Velaryon's children, not the Sea Snake's. The Baratheons can also be seen tentatively as descendants of Lord Aerion, but that's not confirmed either. As above. The original tree as notes listing explicitly which "controversial" offspring are assigned to whom. There isn't that many cases tbh. 3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: We can also reasonably assume that Jeyne Arryn was the daughter of Lord Rodrik's elder son whereas the Mad Heir Ser Arnold (and his son) were the descendants of Lord Rodrik's younger son. Arnold was a first cousin of Jeyne Arryn. Considering that Rodrik's children - aside from Elys - seem to be young enough that Daella can play the role of a mother there without it being completely ridiculous it seems to be very unlikely that there is another generation between Rodrik and Jeyne's father. And the fact that she has brothers who are old enough to fight at their father's side at the time of their deaths also seems to support this. Those points about Jeyne are very good, thank you. Given the line of succession and short time-frame, there is really no other likely plausible scenario that I can think of - Jeyne is almost certainly the daughter of the eldest son of Rodrik (who also had sons older than Jeyne), and Arnold must be the son of Rodrik's younger son, given that he is explicitly mentioned as being Jeyne's first cousin. The only other situation I can think of is if Rodrik, and both his sons died (as well as Elys and Amanda and their children..), and Jeyne is the daughter or a different branch of the Arryns, which is a bit unlikely. Speaking of the Vale, Rhea Royce is also almost certainly the daughter of Yorbert Royce, who was Jeyne Arryn's representative in the Great Council of 101 AC, but that has not been confirmed either. Rhea was ruler of Runestone by 103 AC, and Yorbert was ruler at 101 AC, so he must have died in between, and she inherited. While we're on the topic, the three claimants after Jeyne's death are mentioned as being a first cousin, fourth cousin, and "still more distant" cousin, which is where Isembard and the Gulltown Arryns come from. His branch is described as splitting off in the reign of King Jaehaerys.. but that actually wasn't that long ago, and definitely not long enough to be "still more distant" than 4+ generations ago, considering Jeyne ruled during the last years of Jaehaerys' reign. 3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: In the end, I'd add Naerys and the children of Aegon III and Daenaera if you also have Garmund Hightower's six daughters by Rhaena. The last of the latter could very well have been born after Aegon III's youngest daughter Elaena. You're right, if I include Garmund's children, then I should include the others who were not yet born. Sure I'll delete Rhaena and Garmund's marriage (and children) anyway as it hasn't happened yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted December 12, 2018 Author Share Posted December 12, 2018 I'd say Rhaenyra's sons and the Hull boys fall in the same category as not confirmed as the speculation about Daemon and Valaena. I'd agree that the a different parentage for those children is heavily implied, but that's not the same as confirmation. And especially in the case of Rhaenyra's sons FaB actually gave the whole thing a new spin with Lucamore Strong - the only Strong to actually be described in the story - turning out to be blond. If either Lyonel or Harwin or Larys or Bywin or all of them had been described as brown-haired, brown-eyed guys with pug noses I'd take that effectively as confirmation. But that wasn't the case. Also keep in mind that both Alysanne and Alyssa Targaryen do not actually look like prototypical Targaryens, either, and they come both from Valyrian (incest) stock. There is enough reason there to doubt those things. Cersei's children are confirmed but even here the fact that they are still legally the children of King Robert and seen and acknowledge as Baratheons by the majority of the people of Westeros makes it clear whose children they are in a legal sense. Overall, I think, there it would be much better to work with notes or marking differentiating between biological and legal parentage. I'd also say Alys Rivers cannot be included as a daughter of Lyonel Strong. That's just a theory that has been put forth, there is no proper/independent confirmation for that. The quote about Alyssa's brothers and cousins is from TSotD - check the passage when Alyssa has to show up at court for Maegor's third wedding. Chances are not that bad that Larissa Velaryon is one of the daughters of Daemon (II) Velaryon. The man lived to the age of 88, implying that he was born around the Conquest, or perhaps even before that, depending when exactly he died in the 80s, and that means Larissa could have very well been his oldest child or among his elder children. She seems to have been more or less in Rhaena's age when they were hanging out. And considering the prominence of Rhaena as firstborn grandchild of the Conqueror it makes a lot of sense that a daughter of future Lord of the Tides were among her companions. I'd say that we can tentatively assume the existence of Gaemon's younger daughter but there is indeed no need to include some unknown 'petty lord' as her husband. In relation to the Arryns one could tentatively see Lord Rodrik's uncle and father sons of Hubert Arryn. I think that's what's implied there. Overall, I also think that both Joffrey and Isembard are descended from even younger sons of Hubert's, with the Gulltown branch settling there in the early years of Jaehaerys I. But I didn't yet make the calculations - could Joffrey still be a fourth cousin if the split occurred among Hubert's sons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-Daddy Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: Tentatively I'd also make Davos Baratheon the father of Lord Rogar. He is the only son of Orys we know, and he is the one being rewarded by King Aenys for the victory against the Vulture King, along with a string of men and women who are all ruling lords and ladies, making it very likely indeed that Davos Baratheon was the son and heir and successor of Orys One-Hand as Lord of Storm's End. And considering Rogar's age we can even say that his father was very likely the first born child of Orys and Argella. In my head I am assuming that Davos is the eldest son and heir, but I still can't include it in the tree, however likely it is, it is not confirmed. It's almost certain, but I still can't put it in. I had always considered that Raymont is probably a son of Orys too, and he isn't on the tree. For the same reason, Addam is almost certainly the father of Manfred (II) Hightower, and the relationship between the Durrandons is a direct son-father-grandfather when it goes from Argilac - Arlan V - Arrec. We know that Argilac's grandfather was Arrec, and that Argilac's successor and eldest son was Arlan V.. but not that Arlan was the father of Argilac. 20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: I'd agree that the a different parentage for those children is heavily implied, but that's not the same as confirmation. And especially in the case of Rhaenyra's sons FaB actually gave the whole thing a new spin with Lucamore Strong - the only Strong to actually be described in the story - turning out to be blond. If either Lyonel or Harwin or Larys or Bywin or all of them had been described as brown-haired, brown-eyed guys with pug noses I'd take that effectively as confirmation. But that wasn't the case. Also keep in mind that both Alysanne and Alyssa Targaryen do not actually look like prototypical Targaryens, either, and they come both from Valyrian (incest) stock. There is enough reason there to doubt those things. Cersei's children are confirmed but even here the fact that they are still legally the children of King Robert and seen and acknowledge as Baratheons by the majority of the people of Westeros makes it clear whose children they are in a legal sense. Overall, I think, there it would be much better to work with notes or marking differentiating between biological and legal parentage. Yes, the main version of the tree has notes accompanying it, that clarify what the legal status of these controversial / ambiguous parentage cases is. The tree isn't meant to be looked at in a vacuum, especially not the one posted above - posting this was done more in a way to try to see who I had forgotten. 37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: I'd also say Alys Rivers cannot be included as a daughter of Lyonel Strong. That's just a theory that has been put forth, there is no proper/independent confirmation for that. Crap, you're right. It was Munkun and Eustace who said it. Better than Mushroom.. but not exactly confirmation either. I'll take her out. 51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: The quote about Alyssa's brothers and cousins is from TSotD - check the passage when Alyssa has to show up at court for Maegor's third wedding. I got it. "A visit from the Dowager Queen and Vhagar had persuaded her [Alyssa] to leave her sanctuary on Driftmark and return to court, where Alyssa and her brothers and cousins of House Velaryon did homage to Maegor as the true king." So she has at least two brothers (Daemon, and whoever the father of Lianna is). However on the description of "cousins", we don't know if they are first cousins or second cousins. etc. so cannot be included. 57 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Chances are not that bad that Larissa Velaryon is one of the daughters of Daemon (II) Velaryon. The man lived to the age of 88, implying that he was born around the Conquest, or perhaps even before that, depending when exactly he died in the 80s, and that means Larissa could have very well been his oldest child or among his elder children. She seems to have been more or less in Rhaena's age when they were hanging out. And considering the prominence of Rhaena as firstborn grandchild of the Conqueror it makes a lot of sense that a daughter of future Lord of the Tides were among her companions. I'd say that we can tentatively assume the existence of Gaemon's younger daughter but there is indeed no need to include some unknown 'petty lord' as her husband. I agree about Larissa. I'm still not going to include her though - it's too hard to confirm. I will put in Gaemon's younger daughter though, as thinking about it, Gaemon was well known even casually of being the most "Glorious" of the Dragonstone lords, so people would have known if the claimant had simply invented a daughter in his fabrication of some form of connection. 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: In relation to the Arryns one could tentatively see Lord Rodrik's uncle and father sons of Hubert Arryn. I think that's what's implied there. Overall, I also think that both Joffrey and Isembard are descended from even younger sons of Hubert's, with the Gulltown branch settling there in the early years of Jaehaerys I. But I didn't yet make the calculations - could Joffrey still be a fourth cousin if the split occurred among Hubert's sons? If Hubert was of an age with Aegon when he inherited, having Rodrik's father and uncle being sons of Hubert would fit in perfectly. However, if the split occurred between Hubert's sons and not earlier, Joffrey would be a third cousin and not a fourth cousin. Similarly, Isembard is specifically mentioned as being from a "still more distant branch of that great house". That implies that Joffrey's branch and Isembard's branch didn't split off at the same point, as otherwise they would both be equidistant to Jeyne. And one last thing about the Arryns - Arnold is mentioned as being "first cousin" of Jeyne, and Joffrey is a "fourth cousin by degree". I take it we can assume they are not "fourth cousins twice removed" or anything like that.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-Daddy Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 3 hours ago, Lord Varys said: We can also reasonably assume that Jeyne Arryn was the daughter of Lord Rodrik's elder son whereas the Mad Heir Ser Arnold (and his son) were the descendants of Lord Rodrik's younger son. Arnold was a first cousin of Jeyne Arryn. Considering that Rodrik's children - aside from Elys - seem to be young enough that Daella can play the role of a mother there without it being completely ridiculous it seems to be very unlikely that there is another generation between Rodrik and Jeyne's father. And the fact that she has brothers who are old enough to fight at their father's side at the time of their deaths also seems to support this. Sorry to go back to a previous comment, but one more point to add. Jeyne Arryn being the daughter of Rodrik's elder son can also be supported by the fact that, if this was the case, it would make Rhaenyra Targaryen a (half) first cousin of Jeyne Arryn, as they would both share a grandfather of Rodrik Arryn, since Rodrik was father of Rhaenyra's mother Aemma. In AWOIAF, Rhaenyra is mentioned as being supported by her "cousin" Lady Jeyne, which is a fact that is much more likely to be mentioned if they are cousins to the first degree. This adds to us being more confident that Jeyne's father was Rodrik's elder son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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