[SPOILERS] Family trees and successions

[LordSeaSnake]

I wish we found out which house Sharra Arryn comes from, or who Ronnel's father was even.

As for the Gulltown Arryns, I believe in ASOIAF, a cadet branch of a house is officially defined when a member of the parent house takes a new seat and sigil, departing from the parent house. So while Joffrey would have been from a lesser branch of House Arryn, he still could have been from the mainline, just distantly related. The Gulltown Arryns would have been established by a son or grandson of Hubert Arryn moving to Gulltown and forming an official cadet branch.

[The Wondering Wolf]

15 minutes ago, LordSeaSnake said:

As for the Gulltown Arryns, I believe in ASOIAF, a cadet branch of a house is officially defined when a member of the parent house takes a new seat and sigil, departing from the parent house. So while Joffrey would have been from a lesser branch of House Arryn, he still could have been from the mainline, just distantly related. The Gulltown Arryns would have been established by a son or grandson of Hubert Arryn moving to Gulltown and forming an official cadet branch.

In the Gulltown Arryn case it seems they not only departed from their relatives but also from their nobility, however this works. 

I am not sure if "a still more distant branch" can mean that they descended from Hubert as well. Maybe if they were descendants of Hubert's youngest son it would count as "still more distant" than Joffrey.

[LordSeaSnake]

6 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

In the Gulltown Arryn case it seems they not only departed from their relatives but also from their nobility, however this works. 

I am not sure if "a still more distant branch" can mean that they descended from Hubert as well. Maybe if they were descendants of Hubert's youngest son it would count as "still more distant" than Joffrey.

Yeah, they wouldn't necessary be descended from Hubert. Perhaps an uncle or cousin of his. The Gulltown Arryns were mentioned to have intermarried with merchants in A Feast for Crows, so I assume they only maintained their connection to nobility from the founder of the cadet branch, but are otherwise simply wealthy commoners with surnames. 

[Lord Varys]

With Hubert already being a cousin to Ronnel/Jonos things are pretty difficult if this split did not take place among Hubert's sons. Hubert may have been a first cousin of Ronnel and Jonos, but that's not clear - what's clear is, though, that he and his family did not reside at the Eyrie with Ronnel and Jonos, implying that this is a branch of the family that was only brought in/back to the Eyrie when Ronnel and Jonos' lines ended.

And if Hubert's branch had lived at some minor castle then any relations of his starting the Gulltown branch would have split up before Jaehaerys I's reign.

If Hubert were a first cousin or second cousin (not removed) then chances are not bad that he would have been younger than Ronnel considering that he would then be descended from a younger brother of Ronnel's father or grandfather. Ronnel seems to have been still in his forties when he died, so Hubert was, perhaps, around forty. That could mean some of his sons were already men grown but likely not all of them.

If Hubert were a rather old man in 37 AC Gyldayn should have mentioned that he already grandsons rather than just sons. That, I think, could imply that Hubert only got his grandchildren in the 40s.

The Gulltown Arryns could easily be descended from a younger son of one of the younger sons of Hubert's. That wouldn't make him a more distant cousin by degree, but still a more lesser claimant.

And the idea that Joffrey may have perhaps been Jeyne's cousin once or twice removed actually makes some sense.

2 hours ago, LordSeaSnake said:

I wish we found out which house Sharra Arryn comes from, or who Ronnel's father was even.

Ronnel's father would have been the King of Mountain and Vale, presumably. I'd like it if Sharra Arryn had been an Arryn herself, being a cousin of Ronnel's father.

[Paxter Redwyne]

I noticed that if Simon Strong was Bywin and Lucamore brother, he would be around 90 or 100 at the time of his death. I think it is more plausible that Lyonel was grandson of Bywin and Simon was his second son, thus making him around 70 at the time of death.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I noticed that if Simon Strong was Bywin and Lucamore brother, he would be around 90 or 100 at the time of his death. I think it is more plausible that Lyonel was grandson of Bywin and Simon was his second son, thus making him around 70 at the time of death.

Simon could easily enough still be a young boy in the 70s. That could mean he was about 70 in 130 AC.

[Paxter Redwyne]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Simon could easily enough still be a young boy in the 70s. That could mean he was about 70 in 130 AC.

Bywin and Lucamore are at least twenty years older than him.

[Lord Varys]

29 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Bywin and Lucamore are at least twenty years older than him.

We don't know how old Bywin was. But keep in mind that men can and do take multiple wives in this world. The daughter the first Manfred Hightower was offering the Conqueror likely also was a child he had from a younger wife. Could be the same with Simon Strong. Just as the various children of Lord Lyonel may have been from different wives.

[Paxter Redwyne]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't know how old Bywin was. But keep in mind that men can and do take multiple wives in this world. The daughter the first Manfred Hightower was offering the Conqueror likely also was a child he had from a younger. Could be the same with Simon Strong. Just as the various children of Lord Lyonel may have been from different wives.

Lucamore and Bywin's father could have another wife, yes. I assume Bywin was older than Lucamore as usually younger sons join Kingsguard.

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Lucamore and Bywin's father could have another wife, yes. I assume Bywin was older than Lucamore as usually younger sons join Kingsguard.

I assumed that as well, but we really have no idea whether Lucamore and Bywin and Simon are of the main branch of House Strong. Even if they were not, Barristan Selmy also was the heir to Harvest Hall and betrothed to a woman when he decided to join the Kingsguard. Those kind of things do happen - with Jaime as well. Young Lucamore seems to be a man who really wanted the fame and glory that came with being a Kingsguard. So perhaps he gave up whatever seat the Strongs originally had (we don't even yet know whether they were a lordly house or not) and left all that to Bywin.

[Paxter Redwyne]

How about Braxton Beesbury? He was born 64/65, while Lord Lyman was born 48/49. Could it be that he was Lyman's first son? It could explain why he was in King's Landing if he was son of member of small council. Then Alan Beesbury would be Lyman's grandson through his second son.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

How about Braxton Beesbury? He was born 64/65, while Lord Lyman was born 48/49. Could it be that he was Lyman's first son? It could explain why he was in King's Landing if he was son of member of small council. Then Alan Beesbury would be Lyman's grandson through his second son.

We have already discussed that one, and I really like the idea that the Stinger was the son of Lyman, also explaining why Jaehaerys I is reluctant to punish his family for his transgressions. Not sure if Lord Lyman was already the Master of Coin, though. Could be that Martyn Tyrell and Florence Fossoway were still around.

I like to believe that Lord Lyman was glad that the king got rid of his heir for him the way he did...

[Paxter Redwyne]

There were no mentions of what happened to Alan Tarly after his capture, right? 

[LordSeaSnake]

16 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

There were no mentions of what happened to Alan Tarly after his capture, right? 

He isn't mentioned again.

[Ambrose H]

In the case of series inconsistencies, such as the ones I've listed below, which source to you consider to be more reliable, The World of Ice & Fire or Fire & Blood?

For the children of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne Targaryen, Prince Velaryon and Princess Saera switched birth orders upon the release of Fire & Blood. Velaryon used to be the ninth child, and Saera their twelfth, but now the opposite is true. Also, the birth orders of four other children have been switched. Alyssa was second, and is now fifth. Daella used to be fifth, and is now eighth. Maegelle was eighth before she changed to sixth, and Aeryn, originally the sixth, has been exchanged for Daenerys, who is now second!

My point is, when creating large-scale family trees that rely on accuracy and being canon, which source would you choose to believe, the most recent, or the original?

[Paxter Redwyne]

1 hour ago, Ambrose H said:

In the case of series inconsistencies, such as the ones I've listed below, which source to you consider to be more reliable, The World of Ice & Fire or Fire & Blood?

For the children of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne Targaryen, Prince Velaryon and Princess Saera switched birth orders upon the release of Fire & Blood. Velaryon used to be the ninth child, and Saera their twelfth, but now the opposite is true. Also, the birth orders of four other children have been switched. Alyssa was second, and is now fifth. Daella used to be fifth, and is now eighth. Maegelle was eighth before she changed to sixth, and Aeryn, originally the sixth, has been exchanged for Daenerys, who is now second!

My point is, when creating large-scale family trees that rely on accuracy and being canon, which source would you choose to believe, the most recent, or the original?

Newer books superseeds older. World of Ice and Fire was a big mess. Fire and Blood is a bit messy too, but to much lesser extent. Multiple characters from World in Ice and Fire had even typos in their names.

[Paxter Redwyne]

Has someone figured out timeline of Darrys during Dance of the Dragons?

One was burned by Aemond.

Another was named Derrick(I think).

And last one was killed by Borros.

Was first Darry named and how second one died? Third lord Darry if I remember correctly was named Roland, so Derrick died at some point. Does someone know more about it or can correct me if I made some errors?

[El-Daddy]

15 hours ago, Ambrose H said:

In the case of series inconsistencies, such as the ones I've listed below, which source to you consider to be more reliable, The World of Ice & Fire or Fire & Blood?

For the children of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne Targaryen, Prince Velaryon and Princess Saera switched birth orders upon the release of Fire & Blood. Velaryon used to be the ninth child, and Saera their twelfth, but now the opposite is true. Also, the birth orders of four other children have been switched. Alyssa was second, and is now fifth. Daella used to be fifth, and is now eighth. Maegelle was eighth before she changed to sixth, and Aeryn, originally the sixth, has been exchanged for Daenerys, who is now second!

My point is, when creating large-scale family trees that rely on accuracy and being canon, which source would you choose to believe, the most recent, or the original?

Hi Ambrose. 

Yeah so I agree with @Paxter Redwyne - new almost always supersedes old. Particularly when the newer source has so much more detail, such as with the order of Jaehaerys' children in F&B compared to TWOIAF.

Exceptions would be when there are repeatedly things that are unclear.. like with the Estermonts, as their family tree seems to change in every appendix.

For instance, with TWOIAF, there is a Raymont Baratheon who is mentioned as being a Kingsguard and son of "Lord Baratheon".. but we don't know which. He isn't mentioned at all in F&B, which has lead some to believe he has been removed from the canon.. but he still exists as far as I am concerned, until told otherwise.

[Ambrose H]

3 hours ago, El-Daddy said:

Hi Ambrose. 

Yeah so I agree with @Paxter Redwyne - new almost always supersedes old. Particularly when the newer source has so much more detail, such as with the order of Jaehaerys' children in F&B compared to TWOIAF.

Exceptions would be when there are repeatedly things that are unclear.. like with the Estermonts, as their family tree seems to change in every appendix.

For instance, with TWOIAF, there is a Raymont Baratheon who is mentioned as being a Kingsguard and son of "Lord Baratheon".. but we don't know which. He isn't mentioned at all in F&B, which has lead some to believe he has been removed from the canon.. but he still exists as far as I am concerned, until told otherwise.

Okay. That makes sense. The Estermonts have been hell to try and standardize. Also, which program did you use for your large family tree? Right now, I'm using Draw.io, but it's a bit clunky

[The Wondering Wolf]

3 hours ago, El-Daddy said:

For instance, with TWOIAF, there is a Raymont Baratheon who is mentioned as being a Kingsguard and son of "Lord Baratheon".. but we don't know which. He isn't mentioned at all in F&B, which has lead some to believe he has been removed from the canon.. but he still exists as far as I am concerned, until told otherwise.

@Ran Since this Raymont was included in the Worldbook as well, what are your thoughts on the matter? Is he still canon, was he removed from canon or does GRRM want to make a decission at a later point?