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[SPOILERS] Family trees and successions

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2 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

@Ran Since this Raymont was included in the Worldbook as well, what are your thoughts on the matter? Is he still canon, was he removed from canon or does GRRM want to make a decission at a later point?

I'd say he still exists. He was brought up in the Stormlands section rather than the Sons of the Dragon section so its not a huge surprise he did not feature in Fire & Blood. 

The Kingsguard seemed to have been skimped on in Fire and Blood, how they lived and died was often glossed over, even Ryam, supposedly one of the greatest knights of all time, decades in the Guard, feels like he was glossed over. 

The Stormlands section

Many other Baratheons have won renown over the centuries, following in the footsteps of Orys One-Hand and the Storm Kings before him. Ser RaymontBaratheon, a younger son of Lord Baratheon, served in the Kingsguard when Aenys I was forced to war against the Faith, and saved the life of his king when the Poor Fellows attempted to murder him in his bed. 

The Fire & Blood section

...the king decided that his manse atop Visenya’s Hill was too vulnerable and made plans to remove himself to Dragonstone with Queen Alyssa and their younger children. That proved a wise precaution. Three days before they were to sail, two Poor Fellows scaled the manse’s walls and broke into the king’s bedchamber. Only the timely intervention of the Kingsguard saved Aenys from an ignoble death.

 

I'd guess Raymont, son of Orys, died in this section of Fire & Blood. 

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The Raymont info was from George's original Sons of the Dragon. We placed it in the Stormlands section, but it was from there. George edited out Raymont's name in his new draft of Sons, and I believe we'll update TWoIaF to not name him explicitly.

That said, does it mean Raymont didn't exist, or wasn't a Kingsguard? No idea as of yet. My guess is that the greater role the Baratheons had in Jaehaerys's reign than he originally envisioned led him to decide to pull the character out of there, but that's just a guess.

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40 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

So when the Worldbook is going to be edited, Raymond won't be mentioned a single time in any canonical work anymore. I think you can not consider such a character canon then. 

We're removing him because we don't really know at present, rather than because we do know. Until someone has a chance of getting an answer from George on the topic, he's in a Schroedinger's Cat situation kind of situation.

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Just now, Ran said:

We're removing him because we don't really know at present, rather than because we do know. Until someone has a chance of getting an answer from George on the topic, he's in a Schroedinger's Cat situation kind of situation.

I see, although I think for a character to be considered canon you would need at least a mention in a canonical work. 

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Just now, The Wondering Wolf said:

I see, although I think for a character to be considered canon you would need at least a mention in a canonical work. 

Maybe. But Raymont may now essentially be the equivalent of GRRM having mentioned him in an SSM. Or not. Like I said, we don't really know what's up. For wiki purposes, I'd retain his entry but note the uncertainty as to whether he existed or not.

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The best thing would be to actually get answers from George on the matter before making changes to TWoIaF.

I'm pretty sure he would not 'insist' this guy 'still exists' if he were edited out both from FaB (George's call) and TWoIaF (apparently not necessarily George's call). But if one gets him thinking on Raymont being mentioned in TWoIaF he may feel comfortable with him staying there - or uncomfortable with the change, at least.

The impression I get from that is that he was uncomfortable with an uncle or cousin of Rogar's dying to save King Aenys in light of what Rogar later says about King Aenys and tries to do to his son and daughter. But then - Ser Raymont would clearly be neither Rogar nor any of his brothers, and those Baratheons really aren't all alike or on the same page. So I think it could still work just fine.

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Were Toron's mother from Essos? He was born in 128 before Dalton invaded Westerlands. It could explain why his sisters murdered her. In World of Ice and Fire he was mentioned to capture four salt wives by the age of 14 from his raids on Basilisk Isles and Old Ghis. Same number was stated in Fire and Blood to be on Pyke at the time of Dalton's death. How likely is it that they were same four salt wives he captured at the age of 14?

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On 12/20/2018 at 1:52 PM, Ambrose H said:

Okay. That makes sense. The Estermonts have been hell to try and standardize. Also, which program did you use for your large family tree? Right now, I'm using Draw.io, but it's a bit clunky

I use GenoPro - website here. I don't think it's the most recent edition though.

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Something interesting I noticed. Falena Stokeworth, Aegon IV's future mistress, is briefly mentioned in Fire and Blood. However, during the Dance of the Dragons, there is also a reference to Lord Stokeworth's son and daughter. His daughter is six years old in 130. Falena would be the exact same age. It's pretty interesting to see that Daemon was pushing for Falena to inherit Castle Stokeworth over Lord Stokeworth's son. 

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10 hours ago, LordSeaSnake said:

Something interesting I noticed. Falena Stokeworth, Aegon IV's future mistress, is briefly mentioned in Fire and Blood. However, during the Dance of the Dragons, there is also a reference to Lord Stokeworth's son and daughter. His daughter is six years old in 130. Falena would be the exact same age. It's pretty interesting to see that Daemon was pushing for Falena to inherit Castle Stokeworth over Lord Stokeworth's son. 

I think it could be her if she was born in middle or late of the year because there seem to be one year inconsistency between her stated age in different parts of the book.

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Posted (edited)

I'm a bit confused about House Darry during the Dance.

* Lord Darry I :  dies in 130 AC on the battlements of Castle Darry during Prince Aemond's attack of the castle.

* Lady Darry : wife of Lord Darry I

* Heir of Darry: heir of Lord Darry I who also dies on the battlements.

* Younger children of Lord Darry I who survive Prince Aemond's attack with their mother.

Then we have,

* Lord Derrick Darry (Lord Darry II) who participated in the the Second Battle of Tumbleton.

* Lord Roland Darry (Lord Darry III) who was slained by Lord Borros Baratheon in the Battle of the Kingsroad. Given that this battle occured after Tumbleton II, I'm guessing Lord Derrick died at Tumbleton and Roland became the third Lord Darry during the Dance.

* Ser Damon Darry

* Rosamund Darry (possibly one of the younger children of Lord Darry I)

 

Do we have any information on how the latter Darrys relate to Lord Darry I ?

Edited by Thomaerys Velaryon

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Posted (edited)

@Thomaerys Velaryon

I guess GRRM got confused on his Darrys and Derrick was supposed to die at Darry, while Roland would have been the Darry at Tumbleton. There is no mention of another Darry lord dying between Aemond's attack and the Bloody Mess.

 

Edited by The Wondering Wolf

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