[SPOILERS] Family trees and successions

[The Wondering Wolf]

15 minutes ago, Ran said:

According to Gyldayn's account of events, yes. Later Starks had reason to believe a different version of events -- or at least professed to believe a different version of events.

Do you have any idea when these Starks are supposed to have lived? Still during the reign of Jaehaerys or even later?

[Ran]

5 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Do you have any idea when these Starks are supposed to have lived? Still during the reign of Jaehaerys or even later?

Still Jaehaerys.

[The Wondering Wolf]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

Still Jaehaerys

I thought so, but I am a bit confused about the lack of Stark information in Jaehaerys's later years. I mean this book would have been the perfect opportunity to tell about Alaric's troublesome descendants who were not happy with how things turned out at all, but there is no mention of them. Do you think GRRM intends to reveal some more information on that issue somewhere else?

[Paxter Redwyne]

Are there some new Royces in the book besides Lord Gunthor?

[Lord Varys]

18 minutes ago, Ran said:

Why is it odd? The whole point of these histories is that they are histories told by people based on sources. Gyldayn's version of events are not necessarily _the actual truth_.

Odd in the sense that such an alternative version would make more sense if we got names/dates/a generation of Stark attached to it. After all, since Lord Alaric didn't have a brother who could have complained about his brother forcing others to make land donations the Yandel version we have is strange.

The best way I can see for such an alternative version to stand would be to have Alaric's son be the ones objecting to it. Then this could have been a dispute between father and son(s). Lords Edric and Ellard could at best have regretted the New Gift later, but they could not have complained about a thing that was long in the past.

And what I still completely don't understand is why the New Gift should have had anything to do with the support of Laenor at the Great Council?

And what seems to be clearly factually wrong is that the Starks were forced to give up land. Gyldayn has Alaric say the lands that made up the New Gift belonged to other lords, not the Starks - and that doesn't seem to be just Gyldayn's opinion considering that it makes little sense within that world that the Starks actually personally owned the lands near Brandon's Gift. Especially not exactly the stripe of land that would become the New Gift.

If you ask me one could drop the entire thing (Walton is a much better reason for tension between Jaehaerys and Alaric) or make the Starks later regret that they made/helped to make the New Gift. This idea that they could foresee what would happen is also rather strange, considering the decline of the NW was dependent on a number of factors - and certain crucial factors could actually be influenced by the Starks themselves.

With Alysanne supporting the Watch as she did, one assumes the Watch didn't exactly decline all that much in Jaehaerys' reign.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I thought so, but I am a bit confused about the lack of Stark information in Jaehaerys's later years. I mean this book would have been the perfect opportunity to tell about Alaric's troublesome descendants who were not happy with how things turned out at all, but there is no mention of them. Do you think GRRM intends to reveal some more information on that issue somewhere else?

That should in any case be done if this is story is kept. If it makes sense I may no longer find it odd ;-).

[Paxter Redwyne]

31 minutes ago, Ran said:

Why is it odd? The whole point of these histories is that they are histories told by people based on sources. Gyldayn's version of events are not necessarily _the actual truth_.

But that would mean that Lord Alaric had one more brother, as it was he who was forced to give New Gift to the Nightswatch. 

[Ran]

1 minute ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

But that would mean that Lord Alaric had one more brother, as it was he who was forced to give New Gift to the Nightswatch. 

That has been corrected. When we worked with George and discussed the New Gift matter, we used Alaric's name. But George worked out the family tree later, leaving him without a brother. More recent editions should refer to a Lord Stark rather than a specific one. The gist remains that some Starks were not pleased by the establishment of the New Gift, and tried to find out whether it could be rescinded, and how.

[The Wondering Wolf]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

6 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

give New Gift to the Nightswatch. 

That has been corrected. When we worked with George and discussed the New Gift matter, we used Alaric's name.

I think it was Ellard.

[Ran]

Just now, The Wondering Wolf said:

I think it was Ellard.

Maybe. Rather past my bed time and things are foggy. In any case, one of the several lords after Alaric.

[Paxter Redwyne]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

That has been corrected. When we worked with George and discussed the New Gift matter, we used Alaric's name. But George worked out the family tree later, leaving him without a brother. More recent editions should refer to a Lord Stark rather than a specific one. The gist remains that some Starks were not pleased by the establishment of the New Gift, and tried to find out whether it could be rescinded, and how.

So Alaric Stark first gave New Gift to Nightswatch and then sent letters to the Citadel asking the maesters to provide precedents against the forced donation of property? That doesn't make much sense and if it were his successors who complained, how did they expected to overturn this donation many years later?

[Paxter Redwyne]

@Lord Varys Are you still there? Do you remember any other new Baratheons beside Rogar's brothers and their unnamed children and Borros children in the book? I don't have full version and have read only parts about Dance of the Dragons and reign of Aegon III.

[AlaskanSandman]

Hubert's heir became Darnold, then Raymond, then Rodrik. Couldn't find any mention of who the wife of Darnold Arryn and Raymond Arryn were. Did i miss it and could any one provide that?

[Ran]

7 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

So Alaric Stark first gave New Gift to Nightswatch and then sent letters to the Citadel asking the maesters to provide precedents against the forced donation of property? That doesn't make much sense and if it were his successors who complained, how did they expected to overturn this donation many years later?

Who knows? As I recall, it's a son or brother who is said to have sent these letters, which may be a clue in and of itself. Clearly something was going on for someone to be seeking some legal argument. Were they doing it on behalf of the lord? Of the heir? Of themselves?

George didn't delve that far into it, so I can't say. All I know is that GRRM suggested we convey a countervailing opinion to the idea that the Starks had been happy regarding the Targaryen role in the New Gift. Which is why that part of TWoIaF remains.

[Paxter Redwyne]

1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Hubert's heir became Darnold, then Raymond, then Rodrik. Couldn't find any mention of who the wife of Darnold Arryn and Raymond Arryn were. Did i miss it and could any one provide that?

I don't think their wives were mentioned. Also I am pretty sure Rodrik's father name was Rymond.

[The Wondering Wolf]

12 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Are there some new Royces in the book besides Lord Gunthor?

There is an Alayne Royce during the reign of Aegon III and an Alyssa Royce, one of Rhaena's favourites.

I am not sure about the relationship of Rhea and Gunthor. It says that Runestone passed to a nephew in 115 AC, but Rhea would not have been that much older than Daemon, so born around 80 AC. A nephew could only come from a younger sister (an older sister or a brother would have inherited Runestone before her), so not born before 95 AC. But if Gunthor had been said nephew, he would not have been considered old in 135 AC.

[El-Daddy]

On 11/25/2018 at 5:16 PM, Blooddragon said:

Has anyone made some trees?

Not yet

I originally made some about 4 years ago. The last online update was made after AWOIAF came out. I'll update them when I get the chance, but it's going to take a lot of going through F&B with a fine-toothed comb to make sure I get every connection.

On a quick scan, some updates I've seen include the name "Robar Baratheon" (grandson of Orys, father of Boremund and Jocelyn) from AWOIAF seems to now be "Rogar Baratheon" - this was mentioned before as something that would be changed.

But another confusion, as mentioned above, is with the Hightowers. Manfred Hightower is Lord of Oldtown at the time of Aegon's landing. I had taken Manfred to be the father of Martyn (his heir), of Morgan Hightower (as Manfred was mentioned to have a song in the Warrior's Sons, and Morgan is mentioned later as being the leader of the Warrior's Sons), and  High Septon (as Manfred is mentioned to have another son who has taken the vows of a Septon).

But... now we know that there are two Manfreds. It's gonna take a while to parse through all this new info and make the necessary updates.

[AlaskanSandman]

3 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I don't think their wives were mentioned. Also I am pretty sure Rodrik's father name was Rymond.

Is there any current speculation since F&B regarding the death of the dragons and what caused it? I didn't see any threads or comments in this one yet. 

I've seen many speculations regarding genetics of different kinds but not much other thoughts other than maybe, George needed it to happen to they died. 

[The Wondering Wolf]

31 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Hubert's heir became Darnold, then Raymond, then Rodrik. Couldn't find any mention of who the wife of Darnold Arryn and Raymond Arryn were. Did i miss it and could any one provide that?

We do not know that Darnold was Hubert's son. I guess it is likely but I think the text does not confirm it.

[Paxter Redwyne]

1 minute ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

There is an Alayne Royce during the reign of Aegon III and an Alyssa Royce, one of Rhaena's favourites.

I am not sure about the relationship of Rhea and Gunthor. It says that Runestone passed to a nephew in 115 AC, but Rhea would not have been that much older than Daemon, so born around 80 AC. A nephew could only come from a younger sister (an older sister or a brother would have inherited Runestone before her), so not born before 95 AC. But if Gunthor had been said nephew, he would not have been considered old in 135 AC.

Alayne was a favourite of Rhaena, I think you may have switched the names.

Thing with Rhea's nephew has been bugging me. Was he a child of her sister? Otherwise he would have been heir to the Runestone instead her. And then I wonder who was his father? And as you said Gunthor is too old to be Rhea's nephew. Some of these family trees are really convoluted.