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Lord Varys

[SPOILERS] Family trees and successions

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In relation to Daenaera Velaryon's ancestry:

Does anybody like the idea I tossed around that the guy at the Great Council claiming descent from Gaemon the Glorious through a younger daughter and her petty lord husband might actually be the father of Hazel Harte, the mother of Queen Daenaera Velaryon?

Daeraera's looks are so stunningly Valyrian that it would really help explain why she looks how she looks.

Also - considering the connection between Larys Strong and Perkin the Flea and the obvious Varys parallel between Larys and Varys: How likely is it that Trystane Truefyre might actually be a son of Viserys I? Keep in mind that Varys as Master of Whisperers managed Robert's bastards in AGoT, too.

Gaemon Palehair can very well be actually Aegon's son, I'd say.

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On 12/5/2018 at 4:29 PM, Megorova said:

Rhaenys Targaryen, wife of Corlys Velaryon, was dark-haired, same as her own mother, Jocelyn Baratheon, but Rhaeny's daughters, Rhaena and Aerea, had silver-gold hair -

Rhaenys Targaryen wife of Corlys Velaryon had a daughter, Laena, and a son, Laenor, not daughters Rhaena and Aerea. Rhaena was the daughter of Aenys Targaryen and Alyssa Velaryon, Aerea was the daughter of Rhaena and Aegon Targaryen (children of Aenys and Alyssa).

Edited by Alyssa of House Arryn

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3 hours ago, Alyssa of House Arryn said:

Rhaenys Targaryen wife of Corlys Velaryon had a daughter, Laena, and a son, Laenor, not daughters Rhaena and Aerea. Rhaena was the daughter of Aenys Targaryen and Alyssa Velaryon, Aerea was the daughter of Rhaena and Aegon Targaryen (children of Aenys and Alyssa).

Then I mistook her for someone else. Because there definitely was a blonde daughter of dark-haired Targaryen mother, somewhere in that family.:idea:

Jocelyn Baratheon was dark-haired:

Quote

The third was Lady Jocelyn, his lordship’s own daughter by Queen Alyssa. The small frail babe who had come into the world during that terrible Year of the Stranger had grown into a tall young girl of solemn mien, with large dark eyes and hair black as sin.

Jocelyn's daughter, Rhaenys, was dark-haired:

Quote

Princess Rhaenys was born on the seventh day of the seventh moon of the year, which the septons judged to be highly auspicious. Large and fierce, she had the black hair of her Baratheon mother and the pale violet eyes of her Targaryen father. 

That's where I made mistake, there was two Rhaenyss and I wrote about daughters of a different Rhaenys, not the one, that was dark-haired. Though children of this dark-haired Rhaenys, Laena and Laenor, were also "blond" (their description was given in both TWOIAF book and F&B).

So my point still stands - dark-haired mother can have light-haired children.

 

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1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

@Ran Is by chance Myles Hightower or Bryndon son of Otto? He was mentioned to have at least one other son besides Gwayne.

It would certainly be possible that this was the case for Bryndon - he is a cousin of Lord Ormund. If he were a first cousin he could be a son of Otto considering that, at this point, we have no reason to believe that Otto had another brother aside from Ormund's father.

However, Myles is described as a cousin of Lord Lyonel, not of Lord Ormund. If he were a first cousin he could be a son of a younger brother of Lord Ormund.

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15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Does anybody like the idea I tossed around that the guy at the Great Council claiming descent from Gaemon the Glorious through a younger daughter and her petty lord husband might actually be the father of Hazel Harte, the mother of Queen Daenaera Velaryon?

I absolutely do, though, IMHO that's not enough to explain persistent Valyrian looks of Velaryons, who don't practice inbreeding and keep marrying various Westerosi nobles, instead of, say, Lyseni or Celtigars, who by now seem to have completely lost their Valyrian roots. Gaemon lived more than 150 years previously - that's a lot of dilution. I mean, how come that both Marilda of Hull's boys both had Valyrian looks, when she wasn't described as having them? Or was she herself a dragonseed, herself? Was it why both she and Corlys were OK with the boys trying to mount dragons, despite the miniscule amount of dragonlord blood they would have had from their father alone? Because I don't for a second believe that Laenor could have sired them - both he and Rhaenyra had too much interest in producing at least one mutual child with proper looks, if at all possible.

 

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Also - considering the connection between Larys Strong and Perkin the Flea and the obvious Varys parallel between Larys and Varys: How likely is it that Trystane Truefyre might actually be a son of Viserys I?

Quite likely, I'd say, though he also might have been Daemon's. Daemon was clearly fertile and known for sleeping around whenever opportunity presented itself.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Gaemon Palehair can very well be actually Aegon's son, I'd say.

I agree. IMHO that's why he was spared and treated so gently - and, of course we know that Aegon II frequented whores on a regular basis when he still could. And the boy's age matches.

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5 hours ago, Maia said:

I absolutely do, though, IMHO that's not enough to explain persistent Valyrian looks of Velaryons, who don't practice inbreeding and keep marrying various Westerosi nobles, instead of, say, Lyseni or Celtigars, who by now seem to have completely lost their Valyrian roots. Gaemon lived more than 150 years previously - that's a lot of dilution. I mean, how come that both Marilda of Hull's boys both had Valyrian looks, when she wasn't described as having them? Or was she herself a dragonseed, herself? Was it why both she and Corlys were OK with the boys trying to mount dragons, despite the miniscule amount of dragonlord blood they would have had from their father alone? Because I don't for a second believe that Laenor could have sired them - both he and Rhaenyra had too much interest in producing at least one mutual child with proper looks, if at all possible.

The Velaryons are a real oddity now, considering that the Targaryens actually didn't marry into the House during the 1st century until Corlys and Rhaenys. The only way to explain their rather striking looks (Alyssa and Daenaera actually look more Valyrian than a significant number of Jaehaerys and Alysanne's children - not to mention Alysanne herself).

But perhaps those Valyrian traits that were established by centuries of incestuous/cousin/kin marriages prior to the Doom are not supposed to be so quickly bred out of a population, explaining in part why some (not necessarily all the) Velaryons continued to bring forth so many people echoing the dragonlords of old in their looks.

Another reason might be that intermarrying with a Harte or Massey might not be that far away from the family tree, either, considering that the chances are not that bad that Aethan-Alarra were not the first Velaryon-Massey marriage in history. If Alarra's mother or grandmother had been a Velaryon or Targaryen then Alyssa's looks are easily explained. And the fact that Alyssa's mother was famed as a great beauty might imply that. And, of course, marriages with the Celtigars in those days should have helped with the looks, too.

With Daenaera it is more difficult, hence the idea to connect her with that strange claimant.

5 hours ago, Maia said:

Quite likely, I'd say, though he also might have been Daemon's. Daemon was clearly fertile and known for sleeping around whenever opportunity presented itself.

The idea that he may have been Viserys' is also based on the fact that Alicent apparently didn't really love Viserys after all, so chances that he did have to look for sex elsewhere are not that bad. Daemon would have had little inclination to hide his bastards - Viserys, always eager to please his women and family may have not wanted to flaunt a bastard at Alicent.

Also, it is really an oddity that they would feel the need to put down a fake bastard. If Perkin or anyone had known whose son Trystane actually was it certainly could have helped to save the boy's life. Instead he is basically the only way they actually do kill.

5 hours ago, Maia said:

I agree. IMHO that's why he was spared and treated so gently - and, of course we know that Aegon II frequented whores on a regular basis when he still could. And the boy's age matches.

Yeah, the plan may have even been to have him there as a potential heir should Aegon II really not be able to father another son on his Baratheon wife. It is quite clear that they would have put down Rhaenyra's Aegon as soon as they could afford doing that, and whether Aegon II would have wanted Jaehaera on the throne is not really clear. 

What made Gaemon pretty much impossible would have not only been his low birth but also his two mothers and the edicts and decrees the little king issued. All that shit really had to go.

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On 12/4/2018 at 10:11 AM, Lord Varys said:

If we buy Tyrion's quote about King Loren then Lord Lyman could indeed have been the son of Loren being born after the Conquest. In fact, I'd like that idea, considering this would allow us to imagine that Lord Lyman's eldest son and heir was born by his Redwyne wife, whereas his bastard Tyler Hill may have been born between his first and second marriage. The younger son courting Jeyne Westerling may have then been either a younger son by the Redwyne wife or by Jocasta Tarbeck.

It is odd that Lyman and Jocasta do not throw the heir of Casterly Rock or his son(s) on Rhaena but rather Tyler Hill and some of the younger sons. That implies the younger son courting Jeyne may have gotten another match already by the time Rhaena returned to Casterly Rock (else he would have been the one courting her, one assumes) and that Lyman's eldest son either had no sons yet, or those sons were not yet old enough to actually try to court a queen. It may also imply the younger sons of Lord Lyman also mentioned as possible matches for Rhaena were significantly younger than his already married sons - aside from Tyler Hill.

I just found another quote:

Aegon’s queens, Visenya and Rhaenys, took a special delight in arranging these matches. Through their efforts, young Ronnel Arryn, Lord of the Eyrie, took a daughter of Torrhen Stark of Winterfell to wed, whilst Loren Lannister’s eldest son, heir to Casterly Rock, married a Redwyne girl from the Arbor.

If this means that Rhaenys took part in the Redwyne match, the marriage took place before 10 AC and Loren's eldest son would have been born before the Conquest.

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7 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

 

If this means that Rhaenys took part in the Redwyne match, the marriage took place before 10 AC and Loren's eldest son would have been born before the Conquest.

Not necessarily. The gist of that is that they both Rhaenys and Visenya arranged those matches but this doesn't mean Rhaenys was actually alive by the time the wedding(s) took place. Considering Lord Ronnel's relative youth (he is definitely a preteen during the Conquest) it might very well be the case that Rhaenys was no longer around when he married his Stark girl. The same could be true for Loren Lannister's son. Rhaenys and Visenya certainly could have brokered a match for a preteen Lannister and Redwyne.

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@Ran

Could you please explain whether in this quote grandsire in question refers to Daemon Velaryon or Triston Massey? This wording seems a bit unclear for me. I am not even sure if it refers Alyssa's grandsire or Alarra's.

"She had been a beautiful child, all men agreed, the daughter of the mighty Aethan Velaryon, Lord of the Tides, and his lady wife Alarra of House Massey. Her line was ancient, proud, and rich, her mother esteemed as a great beauty, her grandsire amongst the oldest and closest friends of Aegon the Dragon and his queens."

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On 12/7/2018 at 2:34 AM, Lord Varys said:

Does anybody like the idea I tossed around that the guy at the Great Council claiming descent from Gaemon the Glorious through a younger daughter and her petty lord husband might actually be the father of Hazel Harte, the mother of Queen Daenaera Velaryon?

Daeraera's looks are so stunningly Valyrian that it would really help explain why she looks how she looks.

It's an interesting idea, and it would be nice. But I would say that if that had been the case, the herald introducing her at the Maiden's Ball should had mentioned it.

And we have seen plenty of half-Valyrian by blood looking 'stunningly' Valyrian: Maekar, Jaehaerys II, Aegon VI,... and in any case, if Daenera was a descendant of Daemon, her Targaryen blood would be from at least like 7 generations ago (1/64th).

On 12/7/2018 at 2:34 AM, Lord Varys said:

Also - considering the connection between Larys Strong and Perkin the Flea and the obvious Varys parallel between Larys and Varys: How likely is it that Trystane Truefyre might actually be a son of Viserys I? Keep in mind that Varys as Master of Whisperers managed Robert's bastards in AGoT, too.

Gaemon Palehair can very well be actually Aegon's son, I'd say.

I agree.

Given what we know of Aegon II, he is likely to have bastards, and Gaemon is as good a candidate as any.

I could also buy Trystane being Viserys I son. It's clear to me that Alicent didn't love Viserys to much, and once he realized that, he could easily look for confort elsewhere. And there's a curious thing with the timeline: Aegon the elder is born in 107, Helaena in 109, Aemond in 110, and the Daeron in 115. Trystane would have been born in this five year gap between Aemond and Daeron. After Daeron, with both Alicent and Viserys very young (38 and 27) there are no more children.

In fact, I could easily see Aegon II acquiring his whoring habits from his father.

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Septon Mattheus is noted to claim descent from the Gardener kings. I place money on him being a Florent.

Speaking of the Florents, I found it odd that we don't meet any Florents despite them being a major house from the Reach. In fact, they are only off-handedly mentioned a grand total of two times in the book. And as it stands, House Florent is the only major house from the Reach that we don't know who's side they took during the Dance of the Dragons.

Edited by LordSeaSnake

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4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

It's an interesting idea, and it would be nice. But I would say that if that had been the case, the herald introducing her at the Maiden's Ball should had mentioned it.

He could have mentioned it, but something like that goes against court protocol. In all those instances were we get parents mentioned in this manner we have them mentioning only father and mother. And it is not that the claimant - if he was Lord Harte - was deemed important enough to be mentioned by name when the Great Council was discussed.

4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

And we have seen plenty of half-Valyrian by blood looking 'stunningly' Valyrian: Maekar, Jaehaerys II, Aegon VI,... and in any case, if Daenera was a descendant of Daemon, her Targaryen blood would be from at least like 7 generations ago (1/64th).

Daenaera Velaryon is a very obscure Velaryon. She seems to be the only child of the second son of Vaemond Velaryon (since the text mentions Daemion Velaryon before Daeron I assume Daemion was the elder son), himself the only son of a younger son of Lord Corlys Velaryon. That makes it not very likely that either Daenaera's father Daeron nor her grandfather Vaemond nor Corlys' younger brother got the most prestigious of matches there.

They wouldn't have been married to scions of houses from the Crownlands or the Narrow Sea who were famed for their Valyrian looks.

Thus any speculation about Targaryen/Valyrian blood on the side of Daenaera's mother could help explain why she had such striking Valyrian features.

Another take might be that the Velaryons actually continued to preserve their Valyrian looks by marrying their own, too. Just not their sisters but rather their cousins. We know the first Daemon Velaryon had more sons than just Aethan and Corlys, just as Aethan himself had more children than just Daemon and Alyssa. And the second Daemon himself had (at least) three sons and an unknown number of daughters. Corlys had at least two brothers, and so forth. It would not be surprising if a granddaughter of Aethan had married a son of the second Daemon, or a niece of Corlys had married one of his nephews, etc.

The enormous wealth House Velaryon acquired in the first century would have also been a motivator to prevent the family from spreading out too much. We learn during Alyn's rise to the lordship of Driftmark that his cousins Daemion and Daeron had assets of their own in the form of ships.

4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I agree.

Given what we know of Aegon II, he is likely to have bastards, and Gaemon is as good a candidate as any.

We have two confirmed bastards for Aegon II - at least according to Mushroom. Neither of those seems to be Gaemon Palehair, though.

4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I could also buy Trystane being Viserys I son. It's clear to me that Alicent didn't love Viserys to much, and once he realized that, he could easily look for confort elsewhere. And there's a curious thing with the timeline: Aegon the elder is born in 107, Helaena in 109, Aemond in 110, and the Daeron in 115. Trystane would have been born in this five year gap between Aemond and Daeron. After Daeron, with both Alicent and Viserys very young (38 and 27) there are no more children.

Yeah, that could make sense. It is a pity there that Viserys I's reign isn't covered in so much details as other eras.

4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

In fact, I could easily see Aegon II acquiring his whoring habits from his father.

Oh, I don't know. I've difficulty imagining fat Viserys frequenting brothels. He may have had affairs with favorites and ladies of the court, but I don't think he ever went out in the city to go whoring - unlike both Daemon and Aegon.

35 minutes ago, LordSeaSnake said:

Septon Mattheus is noted to claim descent from the Gardener kings. I place money on him being a Florent. Speaking of the Florents, I found it odd that we don't meet any Florents despite them being a major house from the Reach. In fact, they are only off-handedly mentioned a grand total of two times in the book.

Could be. But then one would have expected some prominent ears... Keep in mind that the man just claimed such descent, it is not confirmed. If it were true I'd expect him being descended from either a daughter or sister of Mern IX, though, considering descent from some Gardener in the more distant past wouldn't have been important enough to be mentioned.

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Could someone help me with Rogar's nephews and nieces?

We know his all brothers were married and except Borys(I think) they all were mentioned to have children. When talking to Jaehaerys, if I remember correctly, he mentioned having five nephews. His brother Ronnal was mentioned to have two daughters and at least two sons. Orryn had a daughter but we don't know what happened to her.

Has anyone figured out how many children had his brothers excluding Orryn?

 

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@Paxter Redwyne

Borys was childless. Orryn had a daughter (who may not have actually been his). Garon had no children if I recall correctly. Ronnel had two sons who died of the Shivers alongside him and his wife but his two daughters survived the sickness.

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8 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

@Paxter Redwyne

Borys was childless. Orryn had a daughter (who may not have actually been his). Garon had no children if I recall correctly. Ronnel had two sons who died of the Shivers alongside him and his wife but his two daughters survived the sickness.

"“We are,” Lord Rogar responded. “Your Grace is more than just.” Then he asked if the king would require hostages of him, as a surety of his future loyalty. Three of his brothers had young children who could be sent to court, he pointed out."

Actually it looks like all his brothers had children. 

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5 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

"“We are,” Lord Rogar responded. “Your Grace is more than just.” Then he asked if the king would require hostages of him, as a surety of his future loyalty. Three of his brothers had young children who could be sent to court, he pointed out."

Actually it looks like all his brothers had children. 

I guess Garon and Orryn are the only ones we don't know anything about.

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