Sweet Robin and Sansa will be LF doom!!

[Lollygag]

I agree with the OP that Sansa is moving to build up Robert to subvert LF but I'm not sure it will turn to ends as dramatic as some imagine. I'm not convinced that Sansa is operating by a detailed plan so much as making choices by instinct.

Below, we see how Sansa sees her dependence, safety and also her danger when it comes to LF. And she's not happy about it. But I don't think she'll be be quick to trust others. She trusted before and it was disastrous. Harboring Sansa puts Bronze Yohn's status at critical risk with LF ruler of the Vale, maybe Robert depending, and definitely with Cersei. He stands to lose both holdings and the lives of himself and his family. Sansa would be smart to recognize that even if some may want to help, the risk may be too high for them.

AFFC Sansa I

"And this lie may spare us. Else you and I must leave the Eyrie by the same door Lysa used." Petyr picked up his quill again. "We shall serve him lies and Arbor gold, and he'll drink them down and ask for more, I promise you."

He is serving me lies as well, Sansa realized. They were comforting lies, though, and she thought them kindly meant. A lie is not so bad if it is kindly meant. If only she believed them . . .

The things her aunt had said just before she fell still troubled Sansa greatly. "Ravings," Petyr called them. "My wife was mad, you saw that for yourself." And so she had. All I did was build a snow castle, and she meant to push me out the Moon Door. Petyr saved me. He loved my mother well, and . . .

And her? How could she doubt it? He had saved her.

He saved Alayne, his daughter, a voice within her whispered. But she was Sansa too . . . and sometimes it seemed to her that the Lord Protector was two people as well. He was Petyr, her protector, warm and funny and gentle . . . but he was also Littlefinger, the lord she'd known at King's Landing, smiling slyly and stroking his beard as he whispered in Queen Cersei's ear. And Littlefinger was no friend of hers. When Joff had her beaten, the Imp defended her, not Littlefinger. When the mob sought to rape her, the Hound carried her to safety, not Littlefinger. When the Lannisters wed her to Tyrion against her will, Ser Garlan the Gallant gave her comfort, not Littlefinger. Littlefinger never lifted so much as his little finger for her.

Except to get me out. He did that for me. I thought it was Ser Dontos, my poor old drunken Florian, but it was Petyr all the while. Littlefinger was only a mask he had to wear. Only sometimes Sansa found it hard to tell where the man ended and the mask began. Littlefinger and Lord Petyr looked so very much alike. She would have fled them both, perhaps, but there was nowhere for her to go. Winterfell was burned and desolate, Bran and Rickon dead and cold. Robb had been betrayed and murdered at the Twins, along with their lady mother. Tyrion had been put to death for killing Joffrey, and if she ever returned to King's Landing the queen would have her head as well. The aunt she'd hoped would keep her safe had tried to murder her instead. Her uncle Edmure was a captive of the Freys, while her great-uncle the Blackfish was under siege at Riverrun. I have no place but here, Sansa thought miserably, and no true friend but Petyr.

 

 

 

The Sansa, Robert, sweetsleep issue is a lot more complex than it looks on the surface.

In AFFC Alayne I, we see Sansa ask about Harrenhal and LF has to cycle through a number of answers before Sansa is satisfied. So LF manipulates by logic and gives answers that he thinks the other person will accept/wants to hear.

Here he says that Robert can't be seen as weak which is true as it would further destabilize an already unstable place. This works for Sansa because she knows appearances are important (courtesy is a lady's armor) and that even perfect heirs like Robb still need to prove their strength in the North to gain the full loyalty of their bannermen. Later Maester Colemon worries that Robert throwing fits on a steep downhill climb isn't safe either. A classic GRRM predicament with no good option so readers debate the hell out of it.

Sansa knows she can't trust LF on one level, but on another level, he'll keep her safe. She well aware that she has no other good options. Her best option is to strengthen Robert to the extent he can challenge LF. But doing so is a double-edged sword.

Another poster had this upthread but I'm highlighting that Sansa had to choose between his life being at risk from a panic during the decent against one more dose. I'd choose the same as Sansa. Better than falling down the mountain and dying. I think it should also be kept in mind that high-born children in Westeros aren't treated by the same standards that we do in modern society. Sometimes what's best for the child is at odds with what's best for the kingdom, and the kingdom usually wins here. The Lord of the Vale cannot make his entrance passed out and drooling off the side of a donkey. It would take a very long time to overcome this, if he ever does.

AFFC Alayne II

"Good. That is good." His chain clinked softly as he bobbed his head, atop a ridiculously long and skinny neck. "This descent . . . my lady, it might be safest if I mixed his lordship some milk of the poppy. Mya Stone could lash him over the back of her most surefooted mule whilst he slumbered."

"The Lord of the Eyrie cannot descend from his mountain tied up like a sack of barleycorn." Of that Alayne was certain. They dare not let the full extent of Robert's frailty and cowardice become too widely known, her father had warned her. I wish he were here. He would know what to do.

…

Alayne understood all that well enough, but it meant that the burden of getting Sweetrobin safely down the mountain fell on her. "Give his lordship a cup of sweetmilk," she told the maester. "That will stop him from shaking on the journey down."

"He had a cup not three days past," Colemon objected.

"And wanted another last night, which you refused him."

"It was too soon. My lady, you do not understand. As I've told the Lord Protector, a pinch of sweetsleep will prevent the shaking, but it does not leave the flesh, and in time . . ."

"Time will not matter if his lordship has a shaking fit and falls off the mountain. If my father were here, I know he would tell you to keep Lord Robert calm at all costs."

"I try, my lady, yet his fits grow ever more violent, and his blood is so thin I dare not leech him any more. Sweetsleep . . . you are certain he was not bleeding from the nose?"

"He was sniffling," Alayne admitted, "but I saw no blood."

...

Alayne's heart had been in her throat when she made her own ascent with Lady Lysa and Lord Petyr, and everyone agreed that the descent was even more harrowing, since you were looking down the whole time. Mya could tell of great lords and bold knights who had gone pale and wet their smallclothes on the mountain. And none of them had the shaking sickness either.

 

Robb was golden as far as succession: trueborn, male, smart, firstborn, yet in the North he still had to prove his strength to gain full loyalty of his bannermen and this was Sansa’s culture. Guessing LF made this argument deliberately about Robert needing to look strong as it would resonate with Sansa. The North is not as removed from Wildling culture as they tend to think. Robb knows he can't get the upperhand by yelling that he's heir and they must obey blah, blah, blah. He knows he has to show himself deserving of that respect.

 

AGOT Bran VI –

And when Lord Umber, who was called the Greatjon by his men and stood as tall as Hodor and twice as wide, threatened to take his forces home if he was placed behind the Hornwoods or the Cerwyns in the order of march, Robb told him he was welcome to do so. "And when we are done with the Lannisters," he promised, scratching Grey Wind behind the ear, "we will march back north, root you out of your keep, and hang you for an oathbreaker." Cursing, the Greatjon flung a flagon of ale into the fire and bellowed that Robb was so green he must piss grass. When Hallis Mollen moved to restrain him, he knocked him to the floor, kicked over a table, and unsheathed the biggest, ugliest greatsword that Bran had ever seen. All along the benches, his sons and brothers and sworn swords leapt to their feet, grabbing for their steel.

Yet Robb only said a quiet word, and in a snarl and the blink of an eye Lord Umber was on his back, his sword spinning on the floor three feet away and his hand dripping blood where Grey Wind had bitten off two fingers. "My lord father taught me that it was death to bare steel against your liege lord," Robb said, "but doubtless you only meant to cut my meat." Bran's bowels went to water as the Greatjon struggled to rise, sucking at the red stumps of fingers … but then, astonishingly, the huge man laughed. "Your meat," he roared, "is bloody tough."

 

Especially while going down the mountain but other times, too, Sansa is repeatedly trying to get Robert to be stronger.

[wia]

9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

 

Robb was golden as far as succession: trueborn, male, smart, firstborn, yet in the North he still had to prove his strength to gain full loyalty of his bannermen and this was Sansa’s culture. Guessing LF made this argument deliberately about Robert needing to look strong as it would resonate with Sansa. The North is not as removed from Wildling culture as they tend to think. Robb knows he can't get the upperhand by yelling that he's heir and they must obey blah, blah, blah. He knows he has to show himself deserving of that respect.

While I agree with this, I also think that not being poisoned to death is more important than being present during feasts. Not like any amout of seeetsleep will make Robert look healthy and what he should be according to the world's standards for little lords. Everybody knows what he's like, Lysa wasn't exactly hiding him from her bannermen.

The descent did, of couse, make perfect sense safety-wise.

[Eli Cross]

On 11/20/2018 at 6:13 AM, Stormking902 said:

Sansa is FINALLY starting to learn the game and she knows LF only control over the Vale is SR, Sansa also knows that SR has a serious crush on her and that LF doesnt truly have his best interests at heart. 

I believe Sansa will reveal her true identity to SR and the true murderer of her mother, SR has been written as a spoiled brat who was babyied way to late in life BUT I think he is growing up and isnt as dumb as LF and others believe him to be. SR and Sansa will confine in Yohn Royce and it will be the end of LF. 

 

Anybody else believe SR will survive the series as a serious underdog story?. It would kind of funny if SR was LF kid as well lol. 

He will first have to survive the poison that Sansa is giving him.  Sweetrobin will be the death of LF and Sansa.  He will eventually learn their intentions and have both of them escorted to the moon door.

[zandru]

3 hours ago, Sire de Maletroit said:

He will first have to survive the poison that Sansa is giving him.  Sweetrobin will be the death of LF and Sansa.  He will eventually learn their intentions and have both of them escorted to the moon door.

First, it's the maester and Littlefinger who are dosing Robert, not Sansa. She's just the intermediary. And as far as throwing folks out the Moon Door, little "Sweet"robin would have his stepfather and only friend Sansa thrown out just for the entertainment of "seeing them fly." He wouldn't need to uncover any of their plots. The kid isn't very sophisticated. By comparison, Joffery was a sage.

[Lollygag]

7 hours ago, wia said:

While I agree with this, I also think that not being poisoned to death is more important than being present during feasts. Not like any amout of seeetsleep will make Robert look healthy and what he should be according to the world's standards for little lords. Everybody knows what he's like, Lysa wasn't exactly hiding him from her bannermen.

The descent did, of couse, make perfect sense safety-wise.

Yeah, I agree there about feasts. I have to think you could talk him down and maybe only have him there for a short time if need be. It’s weird that Westeros doesn’t have more benign calming remedies like the common herbals that we have now. Maybe even give him a bit of alcohol. It’s bad now, yeah, but common in the past until fairly recently. Tywin orders Joff to be given dreamwine.

Anyhow, I do have questions as to just how much Sansa (or non-Maester Westerosi in general) understands sweetsleep’s dangers. We see her being told about it not leaving the system and that this is pretty bad, but not what that means exactly. We see through Arya’s FM training that sweetsleep is a deadly poison at a larger dose (and elsewhere implied that smaller doses can build up to be deadly), but no indication either way as to whether Arya already knew this or not. Maybe that’s not common knowledge? I can’t find anything to be sure. We also see Luwin give Bran sweetsleep during a Robert Arryn-esque fit of being exceptionally annoying (more Bran/Robert parallels!) so Sansa might already be familiar with it, though this was the first time Luwin gave it to Bran as Luwin had to explain it to him. Sansa might also be under the common (false) impression that because it’s given to children, it must not be too bad. In real life we make the same mistake with children’s medications and herbal remedies, too.

Sansa risks her life to save Dontos, feels really bad about his death though LF told her he’d lied to her and would betray her. She feels bad about Lysa and she tried to kill her. She also felt bad for Joff dying when he had her beaten and threatened to rape her and was very upset with Dontos in having Sansa complicit in his death, even unknowingly. It’s not consistent with her character that she’d knowingly put Robert in mortal danger. It would make sense that LF is trying to implicate her in Robert’s death to ensure her loyalty as that’s exactly what he did to her with Joff.

 

[Seams]

17 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Especially while going down the mountain but other times, too, Sansa is repeatedly trying to get Robert to be stronger.

Yes. I almost feel as if the repeated doses of sweetsleep are a sort of inoculation for Robert, helping him to build resistance and immunity he will use later. 

Sweetrobin / Robert Arryn on the throne (or as Hand of the King?) would be consistent with the Isis / Osiris / Horus imagery connected to his story. 

There is also a parallel to the Gregor Clegane / Robert Strong story as Sansa helps Robert Arryn grow or seem stronger. 

[zandru]

5 minutes ago, Seams said:

the repeated doses of sweetsleep are a sort of inoculation for Robert, helping him to build resistance and immunity he will use later. 

But we know that isn't how it works. The repeated doses don't built up immunity, like rattlesnake venom or peanuts would. They accumulate in the flesh like DDT or radioactive cesium, which results in increasing levels of poisoning. If this is Sansa's "plan", she really doesn't listen very well. For the record, I don't think this is Sansa's plan. She's just trying to do whatever is expedient at the moment, or as told.

[wia]

24 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Yeah, I agree there about feasts. I have to think you could talk him down and maybe only have him there for a short time if need be. It’s weird that Westeros doesn’t have more benign calming remedies like the common herbals that we have now. Maybe even give him a bit of alcohol. It’s bad now, yeah, but common in the past until fairly recently. Tywin orders Joff to be given dreamwine.

 

Anyhow, I do have questions as to just how much Sansa (or non-Maester Westerosi in general) understands sweetsleep’s dangers. We see her being told about it not leaving the system and that this is pretty bad, but not what that means exactly. We see through Arya’s FM training that sweetsleep is a deadly poison at a larger dose (and elsewhere implied that smaller doses can build up to be deadly), but no indication either way as to whether Arya already knew this or not. Maybe that’s not common knowledge? I can’t find anything to be sure. We also see Luwin give Bran sweetsleep during a Robert Arryn-esque fit of being exceptionally annoying (more Bran/Robert parallels!) so Sansa might already be familiar with it, though this was the first time Luwin gave it to Bran as Luwin had to explain it to him. Sansa might also be under the common (false) impression that because it’s given to children, it must not be too bad. In real life we make the same mistake with children’s medications and herbal remedies, too.

 

Sansa risks her life to save Dontos, feels really bad about his death though LF told her he’d lied to her and would betray her. She feels bad about Lysa and she tried to kill her. She also felt bad for Joff dying when he had her beaten and threatened to rape her and was very upset with Dontos in having Sansa complicit in his death, even unknowingly. It’s not consistent with her character that she’d knowingly put Robert in mortal danger. It would make sense that LF is trying to implicate her in Robert’s death to ensure her loyalty as that’s exactly what he did to her with Joff.

 

 

 

I can agree that Sansa might not quite understand how dangerous weetsleep is. She knows that it is, but probably not to what extent.

Maester Colemon must be aware. He seems fairly concerned and it is his job to know. But, based on what we know, Robert should be dead. So he has a curious immunity to it. It does make one wonder how did he acquire it.

Hmmm... I do agree with you here. On the other hand Sansa had Jeyne sent away and doesn't care what happened to her. She forgot about Arya for a while. She has this trait of not thinking of and not caring about people as well. So I feel that the whole Robert and sweetsleep issue is more of not caring / not caring enough / caring about other things more than about Robert's health than any sort of intent to put Robert in danger.

It is at the moment just a possibility. We'd have to see where it goes and what Sansa will think about it. Overall I mentioned it because I just don't see any strong desire to save Robert.

 

 

[John Suburbs]

On ‎11‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 10:36 AM, wia said:

Maester Colemon is giving Robert too much sweetsleep, Robert's condition is deteriorating and Sansa (or should we say Alayne) knows it and further encourages it. 

I wouldn't say that it's a plot of hers to get Robert killed intentionally. But she certainly prioritizes his calm behaviors during feasts over him not taking poison that accumulates in the body that the Maester warned her about. Should Sweetrobin die of sweetsleep poisoning, it'd be something like what we would qualify as gross negligence manslaughter in our world for Sansa, Littlefinger and Maester Colemon.

 

Recall, though, that it was Littlefinger who ordered the sweetsleep in the first place:

Quote

The boy is fond of sweets, is he not?"

"Sweets?" said Coleman.

"Sweets. Cakes and pies, jams and jellies, honey on the comb. Perhaps a pinch of sweetsleep in his milk, have you tried that? Just a pinch, to calm him and stop his wretched shaking."

Later, we learn from the waif:

Quote

"Sweetsleep is the gentlest of poisons"... "A few grains will slow a pounding heart and stop a hand from shaking, and make a man feel calm and strong. A pinch will grant a night of deep and dreamless sleep. Three pinches will produce that sleep that does not end."

So not only is Littlefinger ordering the sweetsleep, but he is ordering a dose that will knock a full grown man out for the night.

[The Sleeper]

LF will be LF's doom.

In general terms I think it will go like this: LF thinks to set up shop in the Vale and profiteer on food in the face of the coming winter. In order to do that he is setting up his own sphere of influence while setting the lords who would oppose him against each other. The problem lies with the Mountain clans. Not only will the winter be forcing them to descend, they are now armed and organized. With leadership in the Vale in tatters, due in part to LF's own meddling the Vale is in deep shit.

Of course LF will have an exit strategy which will probably see him in Braavos. 

[wia]

14 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Recall, though, that it was Littlefinger who ordered the sweetsleep in the first place:

Later, we learn from the waif:

So not only is Littlefinger ordering the sweetsleep, but he is ordering a dose that will knock a full grown man out for the night.

By no means was I denying that. It was Littlefinger's idea.

The OP was talking about Sansa protecting Robert, so the conversation followed Sansa, not Littlefinger. And while Littlefinger is away from the Eyrie it is Sansa who decides how much sweetsleep and when will be given to Robert based on circumstances at the time in the quote I provided.

[Springwatch]

So there are two counts against Colemon:

1. He should be giving an honest diagnosis and prescription based on the needs of his patient. Instead, he's giving the ok to dangerous doses of sweetsleep.
2. He says sweetsleep does not leave the flesh, when it plainly does, or SR would be dead.

19 minutes ago, wia said:

The OP was talking about Sansa protecting Robert, so the conversation followed Sansa, not Littlefinger. And while Littlefinger is away from the Eyrie it is Sansa who decides how much sweetsleep and when will be given to Robert based on circumstances at the time in the quote I provided. 

No. She suggests, but Colemon prescribes; he is SR's doctor. At the very least, he's being incredibly weak. I'm very suspicious of Colemon.

1 hour ago, wia said:

On the other hand Sansa had Jeyne sent away and doesn't care what happened to her. She forgot about Arya for a while. She has this trait of not thinking of and not caring about people as well.

She does think of Jeyne, and misses her (sorry, I haven't the quote to hand). We don't really know how often she thinks of Arya - a chapter is just a fragment of a story lasting years. And she does care about other people - she got help for the injured Lancel, who earlier gave false evidence (Robb's army of wargs, sorcery and cannibalism) that got Sansa her worst beating.

[wia]

1 minute ago, Springwatch said:

He says sweetsleep does not leave the flesh, when it plainly does, or SR would be dead.

Or Robert has a very high tolerance. We don't really know.

 

5 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

No. She suggests, but Colemon prescribes; he is SR's doctor. At the very least, he's being incredibly weak. I'm very suspicious of Colemon.

Does she?

Quote

"Just give him a cup of the sweetmilk before we go, and another at the feast, and there should be no trouble."
"Very well." They paused at the foot of the stairs. "But this must be the last. For half a year, or longer."
"You had best take that up with the Lord Protector."

That's pretty much her telling him what to do now and telling him that if he's doubting her authority, Littlefinger will back her up.
We don't actually know what the rules for maesters are. They serve the realm, but must they obey their lords?

 

11 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

She does think of Jeyne, and misses her (sorry, I haven't the quote to hand). We don't really know how often she thinks of Arya - a chapter is just a fragment of a story lasting years. And she does care about other people - she got help for the injured Lancel, who earlier gave false evidence (Robb's army of wargs, sorcery and cannibalism) that got Sansa her worst beating.

 

Quote

 

Jeyne Poole and all her things were gone when Ser Mandon Moore returned Sansa to the high tower of Maegor's Holdfast. No more weeping, she thought gratefully. Yet somehow it seemed colder with Jeyne gone, even after she'd built a fire. She pulled a chair close to the hearth, took down one of her favorite books, and lost herself in the stories of Florian and Jonquil, of Lady Shella and the Rainbow Knight, of valiant Prince Aemon and his doomed love for his brother's queen.

It was not until later that night, as she was drifting off to sleep, that Sansa realized she had forgotten to ask about her sister.

 

I'm not saying that she doesn't care for people in general. She does. She's not a bad person. She tries to help people when she feels for them, she empathises with people's suffering, etc. I'm just saying that she won't be stepping in front of a moving train to save someone which is exactly what it would require to protect Robert from Littlefinger.

Was she looking for Jeyne to make sure she's ok? - No. She had her plate full with her own problems. Same here - she has her plate full with her own problems, she's got no leeway to be saving Robert without risking herself. 

[wia]

32 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I'm very suspicious of Colemon.

This got me thinking.

Colemon was having success with treating Jon Arryn, so Pycelle had to sent him away. So there's no reason to think that Colemon has anything against Arryns. And there's no reason to doubt his expertise about poisons.

The methods that Colemon has been using to treat Robert are leeching and bleeding. Could this be the reason why he didn't die from sweetsleep accumulation?

Or, seeing how he probably truly cares for Robert and how he's good at poisons, could he be duping Littlefinger? Could it be that a lot of the time he's just been giving Robert honeyed milk or some other stuff (something "vile" in his milk?) instead of sweetsleep milk? And that's why Robert is alive?

[Springwatch]

15 minutes ago, wia said:

Or Robert has a very high tolerance. We don't really know.

We don't. But none of the information about sweetsleep suggest tolerance, so far.

15 minutes ago, wia said:

Does she?

That's pretty much her telling him what to do now and telling him that if he's doubting her authority, Littlefinger will back her up.
We don't actually know what the rules for maesters are. They serve the realm, but must they obey their lords?

Alayne is not a lord, not LF's deputy (a girl bastard doesn't get that kind of rank) and has no medical qualifications. Colemon is a maester, and responsible for SR's medical care.

Who Colemon is obeying - that's a very interesting question. He should be serving SR. Ethically, he should be acting in SR's interests. I'm guessing though he's in the pay of one of the Vale lords

15 minutes ago, wia said:

 

I'm not saying that she doesn't care for people in general. She does. She's not a bad person. She tries to help people when she feels for them, she empathises with people's suffering, etc. I'm just saying that she won't be stepping in front of a moving train to save someone which is exactly what it would require to protect Robert from Littlefinger.

I think she's better than that, though all the characters are supposed to be in a dark place in their arc about now...

15 minutes ago, wia said:

Was she looking for Jeyne to make sure she's ok? - No. She had her plate full with her own problems. Same here - she has her plate full with her own problems, she's got no leeway to be saving Robert without risking herself. 

No leeway, that's fair. She's on the run from a treason charge: that's pretty tight.

5 minutes ago, wia said:

This got me thinking.

Colemon was having success with treating Jon Arryn, so Pycelle had to sent him away. So there's no reason to think that Colemon has anything against Arryns. And there's no reason to doubt his expertise about poisons.

The methods that Colemon has been using to treat Robert are leeching and bleeding. Could this be the reason why he didn't die from sweetsleep accumulation?

Or, seeing how he probably truly cares for Robert and how he's good at poisons, could he be duping Littlefinger? Could it be that a lot of the time he's just been giving Robert honeyed milk or some other stuff (something "vile" in his milk?) instead of sweetsleep milk? And that's why Robert is alive?

Great ideas, I can't fault them.

I just don't know. Someone is poisoning SR, I'm sure (doesn't he have pin-prick pupils one time?). My feeling is someone else will give him the final overdose, and LF will be blamed (because everyone knows what LF did).

Generally though, there's two sorts of medicine in asoiaf: the red, burning one which actually works, and the blue, soothing one, which lets you die. Sweetsleep is soothing, and leeching is anti red, so they both seem on the same side. Of course, there's nothing to say it has to be this way.

[wia]

1 minute ago, Springwatch said:

Alayne is not a lord, not LF's deputy (a girl bastard doesn't get that kind of rank) and has no medical qualifications. Colemon is a maester, and responsible for SR's medical care.

Yea, you see, they started with Coleman refusing to give Robert any more sweetsleep and ended with 2 cups. This is what Sansa told him to do, this is what Coleman doesn't want to do and this is what Coleman agreed to do. Why he agreed is a mystery.

3 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I think she's better than that, though all the characters are supposed to be in a dark place in their arc about now...

I think that's just her being an average person. Sacrificing yourself to save others is not a widespread quality in people, self-preservation is. But that's all a matter of personal opinion and interpretation. I don't insist on mine being the correct one.

7 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

doesn't he have pin-prick pupils one time?

 

 

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Sansa I

• The Lord of the Eyrie had been crying again. His eyes were red and raw, his lashes crusty, his nose swollen and runny. A trail of snot glistened underneath one nostril, and his lower lip was bloody where he'd bitten it. 

A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

• "No. The light hurts my eyes. Come to bed, Alayne."
• Robert had spindly arms and legs, a soft concave chest and little belly, and eyes that were always red and runny. 
• Robert's face was pale and his eyes puffy, but his hands were still. 
• He was staring at the narrow saddle with his reddened eyes. 

 

 

You mean he's being poisoned by something other than sweetsleep?  

[Springwatch]

29 minutes ago, wia said:

You mean he's being poisoned by something other than sweetsleep?  

I don't know - it's puzzling. The scene with the pinprick eyes is the descent from the Eyrie:

Quote

Alayne took Robert's gloved hand in her own to stop his shaking. "Sweetrobin," she said, "I'm scared. Hold my hand, and help me get across. I know you're not afraid."

He looked at her, his pupils small dark pinpricks in eyes as big and white as eggs. "I'm not?"

[AFFC - ALAYNE II]

So he's starting to shake when they arrive at the high saddle, and by the time they're across, he's having a full-on fit. Nobody remarks on anything out of the ordinary, so this is his normal condition.

Thing is, Colemon had said he would give SR sweetsleep to prevent this happening. Either he was wrong that sweetsleep could prevent the fit, or - it was not sweetsleep.

[wia]

7 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I don't know - it's puzzling. The scene with the pinprick eyes is the descent from the Eyrie:

So he's starting to shake when they arrive at the high saddle, and by the time they're across, he's having a full-on fit. Nobody remarks on anything out of the ordinary, so this is his normal condition.

Thing is, Colemon had said he would give SR sweetsleep to prevent this happening. Either he was wrong that sweetsleep could prevent the fit, or - it was not sweetsleep.

It seems that that sort of pupils are a sign of opiates or other similar medication that is consistent with what we can guess sweetsleep is.

The thing is that it's very hard to figure out what Robert's illness actually is an whether it's an actual illness or some magical thing and therefore it's hard to say which of his symptoms are caused by illness, which by medications/poison and which are simply a sign of him being sad about his mother dying and scared of a descent from a mountain.

[The Mother of The Others]

On 11/20/2018 at 10:24 AM, John Suburbs said:

 still a complete novice. She'll be lucky if she isn't exposed and dragged back to KL by Ser Shadrich.

Personally, I'm hoping that Petyr meets up with Lady Stoneheart. 

On 11/20/2018 at 8:15 AM, wia said:

Littlefinger just set this up really well

Uhhhh, what about the mountain men clans that Tyrion was tight with?  They could help Tyrion's bride escape through the back alleyways of the vale, no?  ('Bride of Tyrion' sounds like Sansa is a monster movie villain....I don't think she's becoming a monster... the drowsy robin game is to protect Robin's public image from tanking so badly that it's beyond fixing and the lords decide Robin can't be the future.  You don't want that implosion if you're Alayne, Sansa, Petyr, Jon, Cercei, etc.  )

Something highly entertaining will happen with Sweetrobin.  We've been browbeaten with too many pages of him being a spaz.  I think we're being set up like a pro wrestling crowd to cheer (or at least not cry too much) when....something highly amusing happens.

The womens on here long ago combed through the text for any and all hints of Petyr's downfall (you know how they are) and they found possibly this same Shadrich, or a similar source of inbound Vale Rupturing Information.   So it will have to be dealt with, the scandal of being Sansa, but only after the news breaks, because I DON'T give the Vale lords the benefit of the doubt on their own- - after Pete outmaneuvered them I don't think they're secretly smart, not enough to figure out who Alayne is.  Miranda will.  And she'll demand something hot and childish in return for her silence.  But I swore not to make this about lesbian fantasies.

I also consider a Stoneheart Littlefinger scene to be at the top of my Christmas list.   It's one of the few things that'd make me okay with an early LF demise.  Otherwise I wanna see his plan play out. 

And what if , to bring things full circle, it's part of Pete's master plan to have the mountain clans steal Sansa and head back to KL for the reward.... because then Pete gets a chance to mobilize the Vale army in chase...back to KL, where the mountain men won't find Cercei....they'll run into Aegon's seige first.....allowing Petyr to arrange ( by ravens) to have the dashing Aegon rescue Sansa as the gleaming knight from her childhood stories she's always been in love with, and Aegon gets the North and Sansa gets to watch with glee as Cercei's time runs out, before a real life game of Come Into My Castle.  The mountain clans may even be in on it with Petyr, so Sansa is never at risk?

[wia]

4 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Uhhhh, what about the mountain men clans that Tyrion was tight with?  They could help Tyrion's bride escape through the back alleyways of the vale, no?  ('Bride of Tyrion' sounds like Sansa is a monster movie villain....I don't think she's becoming a monster... the drowsy robin game is to protect Robin's public image from tanking so badly that it's beyond fixing and the lords decide Robin can't be the future.  You don't want that implosion if you're Alayne, Sansa, Petyr, Jon, Cercei, etc.  )

Something highly entertaining will happen with Sweetrobin.  We've been browbeaten with too many pages of him being a spaz.  I think we're being set up like a pro wrestling crowd to cheer (or at least not cry too much) when....something highly amusing happens.

The womens on here long ago combed through the text for any and all hints of Petyr's downfall (you know how they are) and they found possibly this same Shadrich, or a similar source of inbound Vale Rupturing Information.   So it will have to be dealt with, the scandal of being Sansa, but only after the news breaks, because I DON'T give the Vale lords the benefit of the doubt on their own- - after Pete outmaneuvered them I don't think they're secretly smart, not enough to figure out who Alayne is.  Miranda will.  And she'll demand something hot and childish in return for her silence.  But I swore not to make this about lesbian fantasies.

I also consider a Stoneheart Littlefinger scene to be at the top of my Christmas list.   It's one of the few things that'd make me okay with an early LF demise.  Otherwise I wanna see his plan play out. 

And what if , to bring things full circle, it's part of Pete's master plan to have the mountain clans steal Sansa and head back to KL for the reward.... because then Pete gets a chance to mobilize the Vale army in chase...back to KL, where the mountain men won't find Cercei....they'll run into Aegon's seige first.....allowing Petyr to arrange ( by ravens) to have the dashing Aegon rescue Sansa as the gleaming knight from her childhood stories she's always been in love with, and Aegon gets the North and Sansa gets to watch with glee as Cercei's time runs out, before a real life game of Come Into My Castle.  The mountain clans may even be in on it with Petyr, so Sansa is never at risk?

Persuading the mountain clans is an iteresting idea. The questions are: 

- does the reward worth the risk for Shadrich or whoever would be negotiating?

- whats in it for the mountain clans? - They don't want money and they already have weapons. Not sure ther like Tyrion that much or care for the concept of saving brides.

I'm not saying she's becoming a monster. I'm saying she prioritizes other things, including not only Robert's, but her own and Littlefinger's agenda over Robert's health.

The way I see it, the Vale lords (the relevant ones) know who Sansa is and that is a part of Littlefinger's plan and one of the reasons why they agreed to make him Lord Protector.