Jump to content
Ran

[Spoilers] Fire and Blood Errata

Recommended Posts

He had no children, which is why his cousin Hubert was his successor after his brother Jonos was executed for Ronnel's murder.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ran said:

He had no children, which is why his cousin Hubert was his successor after his brother Jonos was executed for Ronnel's murder.

Yes, but there was mention of Jonos executing Ronnel's family as well in the Sons of the Dragon. Is this information no longer true and Jonos executed only his brother Ronnel?

Also, I thought that in Fire and Blood it was stated that Jonos was murdered by his own supporters who had hoped to save their own skin by doing this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, "Sons of the Dragon" never had anything about Ronnel having children who were killed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ran said:

Yeah, "Sons of the Dragon" never had anything about Ronnel having children who were killed.

Ok, thanks for clarification, I was confused.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ronnel's family and their death by Moon Door  was mentioned during "Sons of dragon" reading several years ago. I remember we speculated if it caused bad blood with North as Ronnel's wife was Stark. 

But when "Sons" were printed there were no mention of Ronnel's family.

Edited by DanaKz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, DanaKz said:

Ronnel's family and their death by Moon Door  was mentioned during "Sons of dragon" reading several years ago. I remember we speculated if it caused bad blood with North as Ronnel's wife was Stark. 

But when "Sons" were printed there were no mention of Ronnel's family.

I don't think that's correct, as I have the original version of Sons, the one George read, and there was no family reference in it at any point. I suspect someone misrecalled details from the reading. It happens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Ran said:

I don't think that's correct, as I have the original version of Sons, the one George read, and there was no family reference in it at any point. I suspect someone misrecalled details from the reading. It happens.

Yeah, we may have confused the various moondoored fellows in that entire thing.

But it is curious that neither Ronnel nor Jonos apparently had any issue - or at least that said issue was passed over when King Aenys gave the Vale to Hubert Arryn rather than to any hypothetical descendants of either Ronnel or Jonos.

It is possible, though, that both Ronnel's and Jonos' children may have been among the most highborn Maegor hanged. Not all children are loyal to their fathers, after all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The way it's written about Hubert having already had many children as a contrast to Ronnel and Jonos, I think they simply didn't have any kids. We don't even know that Jonos was married, or that Ronnel's wife was alive at the time Jonos seized his brother.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Ran said:

The way it's written about Hubert having already had many children as a contrast to Ronnel and Jonos, I think they simply didn't have any kids. We don't even know that Jonos was married, or that Ronnel's wife was alive at the time Jonos seized his brother.

Sure, but the scarcity of information doesn't allow us to jump to any conclusions. And while chances are significantly higher that Ronnel either had not children - or that said children were either killed in the coup or dead by other causes when Hubert took over - than that said children made common cause with Jonos, chances that Jonos actually had children and said children were executed by Maegor are not that bad.

Jonos Arryn declared himself King of Mountain and Vale and it is not that likely that somebody with no heirs would do such a thing. In fact, Ronnel having no heirs of his own body would make this even more likely, considering that Ronnel had then not fulfilled his dynastic obligations and may have been lacking strong sons to defend him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would guess not, since he was never a Kingsguard knight according to the regents.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/17/2018 at 5:58 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Additionally, could you comment on the name of Borros Bararheon's son? He is named Olyver, and said to  have been named for his mother's father, but that father is identified as Royce Caron at some point. Should that be Olyver Caron then?

Also, do we know the proper spelling of his given name? "The Short, Sad Reign of Aegon II" and "The Hour of the Wolf" use Olyver, while "The Hooded Hand" uses Olyvar. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Nittanian said:

Also, do we know the proper spelling of his given name? "The Short, Sad Reign of Aegon II" and "The Hour of the Wolf" use Olyver, while "The Hooded Hand" uses Olyvar. 

With Olyver being used most frequently, I would suggest using that spelling until we get confirmation that it should be otherwise, but add a note stating the contradictions regarding his given name (including both "Olyvar" and "Royce" in that note).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/25/2019 at 5:20 PM, Ran said:

I would guess not, since he was never a Kingsguard knight according to the regents.

Aegon III might restore him to the White Swords in the future. He is the one who survived.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The World of Ice and Fire states the following:

Yet some say the most important achievement of the rule of Jaehaerys and Septon Barth was a reconciliation with the Faith. The Poor Fellows and Warrior's Sons, no longer hunted as they had been in Maegor's day, were much reduced and officially outlawed thanks to Maegor, but they were still present. And still restless, in their eagerness to restore their orders. More pressingly, the Faith's traditional right to judge its own had begun to prove troublesome, and many lords complained of unscrupulous septries and septons making free with the wealth and property of their neighbors and those they preached to.

Some counselors urged the Old King to deal with the remnants of the Faith Militant harshly—to stamp them out once and for all before their zealotry could return the realm to chaos. Others cared more for ensuring that the septons were answerable to the same justice as the rest of the realm. But Jaehaerys instead dispatched Septon Barth to Oldtown, to speak with the High Septon, and there they began to forge a lasting agreement. In return for the last few Stars and Swords putting down their weapons, and for agreeing to accept outside justice, the High Septon received King Jaehaerys's sworn oath that the Iron Throne would always protect and defend the Faith. In this way, the great schism between crown and Faith was forever healed.

 

Yet Jaehaerys and the Faith had been reconciled, and the agreements bolded had been made before Barth ever arrived in King's Landing. So how are we to reconcile the account of Yandel with Gyldayn's writings?

Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

The World of Ice and Fire states the following:

Yet some say the most important achievement of the rule of Jaehaerys and Septon Barth was a reconciliation with the Faith. The Poor Fellows and Warrior's Sons, no longer hunted as they had been in Maegor's day, were much reduced and officially outlawed thanks to Maegor, but they were still present. And still restless, in their eagerness to restore their orders. More pressingly, the Faith's traditional right to judge its own had begun to prove troublesome, and many lords complained of unscrupulous septries and septons making free with the wealth and property of their neighbors and those they preached to.

Yet Jaehaerys and the Faith had been reconciled before Barth ever arrived in King's Landing. So then, does Yandel here refer to the Doctrine of Excetionalism, which Barth did participate to? Or how else are we to reconcile Yandel's statement with Gyldayn's writings?

We don't. Yandel didn't have Gyldayn's notes when he was writing that. 

In part, there may be a complex Gyldayn skipped which is now never going to covered in detail - the exact events around Jaehaerys I's laws to take away the judicial powers of the Faith - which we can assume may have happened somewhere along the lines of what Yandel writes there. We do know from the High Sparrow that there are laws of Jaehaerys I taking away the Faith's right to conduct trials, laws King Tommen revokes in AFfC, too, but never got the story behind that.

The actual reconciliation between Jaehaerys I and the Faith only took place when he and Alysanne essentially crushed the last remnants of independence the Faith still had - during their visit to Oldtown when they forced the Most Devout to make their Exceptionalism crony the new High Septon. That is what this 'reconciliation' actually was.

Queen Alyssa and young Jaehaerys I never properly reconciled with the Faith. They had an uneasy truce due to the fact that the Faith no longer had any military power, but Septon Mattheus really tried to push - and nearly succeeded at that - the spiritual and moral superiority of the Faith in relation to the incest issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could someone with a later print of TWOIAF than the first one (or perhaps with a ebook version which is up-to-date) check if Septon Barth's year of death as stated in the chapter on Jaehaerys I has been corrected from 99 AC to 98 AC?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't. Yandel didn't have Gyldayn's notes when he was writing that. 

In part, there may be a complex Gyldayn skipped which is now never going to covered in detail - the exact events around Jaehaerys I's laws to take away the judicial powers of the Faith - which we can assume may have happened somewhere along the lines of what Yandel writes there. We do know from the High Sparrow that there are laws of Jaehaerys I taking away the Faith's right to conduct trials, laws King Tommen revokes in AFfC, too, but never got the story behind that.

The actual reconciliation between Jaehaerys I and the Faith only took place when he and Alysanne essentially crushed the last remnants of independence the Faith still had - during their visit to Oldtown when they forced the Most Devout to make their Exceptionalism crony the new High Septon. That is what this 'reconciliation' actually was.

Queen Alyssa and young Jaehaerys I never properly reconciled with the Faith. They had an uneasy truce due to the fact that the Faith no longer had any military power, but Septon Mattheus really tried to push - and nearly succeeded at that - the spiritual and moral superiority of the Faith in relation to the incest issue.

And yet, Gyldayn states that Jaehaerys and the Faith agreed to have that power being taken away from the Faith in the quoted part above (expanded shortly after posting and thus absent in the post of mine that you quoted). 

And even if the true reconciliation occurred in 54 AC (although Gyldayn calls the events of 48 AC the reconciliation on several occasions in the book), that still does not fit with Yandel's account, which states that Barth was sent to Oldtown by Jaehaerys to achieve the things Gyldayn states Jaehaerys himself achieved in 48 AC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×