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Lord Varys

[spoilers] Aerea

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51 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The flame Varys heard a voice from was a blue flame, and thus not necessarily linked with Valyria. I also have to point out the Unsullied burn their parts on an altar, and they have a type of warrior goddess (very much grafted like Athena). And then there's a scene where Dany chops up a snake, chars it above a brazier and then feeds it to the baby dragons in Qarth. Male private parts have the nickname of one-eyed snake, and her gods could be said to be the dragons that are growing. All three scenes or rituals are parallels. It basically is an offer, birthing or strengthening a god/force/creature/belief. But in each version the force/god/belief/creature differs.

I'm not talking about genital sacrifice, I'm talking about divination and conjuration using fire as a medium. With the right incantations, Varys' genitals were enough to summon a single voice that harrowed him to this day, what could be done using the whole bodies of dragonlords and their dragons? And what did Aerea learn from them if she encountered them? A prophecy about the Long Night, or some revelation about the many sins and debaucheries of her own ancestors? Barth says that what she spoke was too terrible to recount.

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1 hour ago, HamSandLich said:

I'm not talking about genital sacrifice, I'm talking about divination and conjuration using fire as a medium. With the right incantations, Varys' genitals were enough to summon a single voice that harrowed him to this day, what could be done using the whole bodies of dragonlords and their dragons? And what did Aerea learn from them if she encountered them? A prophecy about the Long Night, or some revelation about the many sins and debaucheries of her own ancestors? Barth says that what she spoke was too terrible to recount.

But the Varys example you cited does involve the genital sacrifice. It is the sacrifice that causes the flame to go blue and for the voice to answer. But I agree it should make you wonder what you could conjure if you sacrifice more. Then again, maybe that's not actually a valid question. Maybe it doesn't make a difference. The sorcerer could have chopped up all of Varys and throw him into the flames, if he wanted to. He had bought Varys and Varys was paralyzed. He didn't though. He just sacrificed the genitals, even though Varys was of no other use to him, and was at liberty to die where he lay.

So, if it's not the volume of parts burned that matters, we should wonder what is essentially sacrificed? And the answer is that it's the ability to procreate that is sacrificed, the potential future generations. And then we can add Craster's sacrifice of his sons to the bunch of examples.

The other questions will I fear remain unanswered. George obviously indulged in giving us a glimpse how bad a place Valyria is, and leaving it up to our imagination otherwise. If Septon Barth is not going to recount what she said, then George intends to never tell us. Typical Lovecraftian horror.

ETA: @The Fattest Leech informed me that the "worms with faces" described to have wanted to leave Aerea's body fit the name of the evil alien race that feeds on humans in Heinlein's "have space suit will travel"... the wormfaces. In a recent interview George said this was the first sci-fi book he ever read, gifted to him by his aunt. So, this is a Lovacraftian tribute to Heinlein most likely.

Edited by sweetsunray

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Well, Craster isn't sacrificing his sons in a blood magic ritual, he's giving them to the Others and they do...whatever it is evil fae do with infant manthings.

As for the ability to make more progeny on the earth, entire bloodlines were snuffed out in the Doom...

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2 minutes ago, HamSandLich said:

Well, Craster isn't sacrificing his sons in a blood magic ritual, he's giving them to the Others and they do...whatever it is evil fae do with infant manthings.

As for the ability to make more progeny on the earth, entire bloodlines were snuffed out in the Doom...

But the Others are magical beings and they do get stronger because of his sacrifice.

To the last: indeed they were. So, the evil there will be there for a very long time to come. A no-go zone

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27 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

But the Varys example you cited does involve the genital sacrifice. It is the sacrifice that causes the flame to go blue and for the voice to answer. But I agree it should make you wonder what you could conjure if you sacrifice more. Then again, maybe that's not actually a valid question. Maybe it doesn't make a difference. The sorcerer could have chopped up all of Varys and throw him into the flames, if he wanted to. He had bought Varys and Varys was paralyzed. He didn't though. He just sacrificed the genitals, even though Varys was of no other use to him, and was at liberty to die where he lay.

So, if it's not the volume of parts burned that matters, we should wonder what is essentially sacrificed? And the answer is that it's the ability to procreate that is sacrificed, the potential future generations. And then we can add Craster's sacrifice of his sons to the bunch of examples.

The other questions will I fear remain unanswered. George obviously indulged in giving us a glimpse how bad a place Valyria is, and leaving it up to our imagination otherwise. If Septon Barth is not going to recount what she said, then George intends to never tell us. Typical Lovecraftian horror.

ETA: @The Fattest Leech informed me that the "worms with faces" described to have wanted to leave Aerea's body fit the name of the evil alien race that feeds on humans in Heinlein's "have space suit will travel"... the wormfaces. In a recent interview George said this was the first sci-fi book he ever read, gifted to him by his aunt. So, this is a Lovacraftian tribute to Heinlein most likely.

Hey there SSR, you caught me when I happened to be online here. If you want, I can certainly provide many book quotes to back this up. And really I also want to emphasize that it seems like Martin was having a grand ol'time filling in certain details of Fire & Blood, transporting himself back to his good old days of exploration, horror, and weird tales. It has been rather fun to read.

ADDING: These worm-facey creatures are also "merged" story-wise with the sandkings from GRRM's story Sandkings, a very Targ/Dany-ish protoype of story.

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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Just now, sweetsunray said:

But the Others are magical beings and they do get stronger because of his sacrifice.

Or they got interesting pets, or they ate them, or they twisted them into more Others, or they reinserted them as sleeper agent changelings amongst the wildings, or they...

You get my point, its not necessarily a direct parallel to the fire demon summoning.

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1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Hey there SSR, you caught me when I happened to be online here. If you want, I can certainly provide many book quotes to back this up. And really I also want to emphasize that it seems like Martin was having a grand ol'time filling in certain details of Fire & Blood, transporting himself back to his good old days of exploration, horror, and weird tales. It has been rather fun to read.

I'm certainly curious after quotes ;) For the moment, I only had the plot synopsis to go by.

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Just now, sweetsunray said:

I'm certainly curious after quotes ;) For the moment, I only had the plot synopsis to go by.

Sure, just allow me a little time. That synopsis does a fairly good job of describing the big points of the story.

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5 minutes ago, HamSandLich said:

Or they got interesting pets, or they ate them, or they twisted them into more Others, or they reinserted them as sleeper agent changelings amongst the wildings, or they...

You get my point, its not necessarily a direct parallel to the fire demon summoning.

Note I didn't specify what they did with the children. They did get stronger though over the decades. You get my point. And we don't know whether a fire demon was summoned in Varys's case... It actually might have been an Other at the other side of the blue flame for all we know. Ice and frost "burns" after all. On top of that the Others once rode "ice spiders" (not frosted spiders, but pale spiders... and how pale does our present spider look?).

I don't know the answer, just throwing a few possibilities out there that allow someone to make the hypothesis that the genital sacrifice might have wokened up Others for all we know.

Edited by sweetsunray

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12 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

On top of that the Others once rode "ice spiders" (not frosted spiders, but pale spiders... and how pale does our present spider look?)

Ok, that's just reaching and you know it. I'm willing to acknowledge the (extremely slim) possibility that genital sacrifice awoke the Others, but its still highly improbably given their general thematics and the extent to which Planetos is diverse. But in all likelihood, the Others simply return now because magic is on the upcycle and the kingdoms of mankind are weak and ignorant. After all, they had to have been present in the first place for Craster to make sacrifices to the Cold Gods.

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30 minutes ago, HamSandLich said:

Ok, that's just reaching and you know it. I'm willing to acknowledge the (extremely slim) possibility that genital sacrifice awoke the Others, but its still highly improbably given their general thematics and the extent to which Planetos is diverse. But in all likelihood, the Others simply return now because magic is on the upcycle and the kingdoms of mankind are weak and ignorant. After all, they had to have been present in the first place for Craster to make sacrifices to the Cold Gods.

No, not necessarily reaching, not when you can count the number of times the word "spider(s)" appears, and almost all can be linked to Varys.

Well waking the Others is waking something that is already in existence, but dormant (like a volcano can be dormant and then wake up before becoming destructive). When was Varys a kid? That would be between 40-55 years ago. He was already a succesful adult with an established business in Pentos by the time he got to work for Mad Aerys. Probably around the same age as Tywin. Craster is an old man already. There's no guarantee that the first sons Craster sacrificed ever were taken for whatever purpose by the Others. Even if the Others were dormant back then, babys exposed to the elements in a forest are sure to end up dead - either eaten by predators or dead from hunger and cold. Once they're not dormant anymore, instead of a predator an Other made use of it, etc... So, no, they do not have to present for Craster to sacrifice his sons. Craster has personal motivation enough to be rid of sons anyhow (he's greedy, wants to keep his daughters to himself), and old wive's tails of his mother might make him believe he's sacrificing to Cold Gods, whether they're there or not. Lots of people keep praying to the Seven, whether their prayers are heard or not.

So, it's quite possible that Craster sacrificed his sons to Cold Gods without Cold Gods fetching his sacrifice for they were still dormant. Then some years later a sorcerer wakes the dormant Others with a genital sacrifice. An Other is lured to Craster's sacrifice because of its wailing, as much as any predator is, and knows how to make use of it, to help get them stronger. And voila a symbiotic relation gets established, until around aSoS, they have grown strong enough and wighted pretty much anything else they can get their hands on, that eventually they don't need Craster's sacrifice anymore. Craster is growing pretty desperate by aSoS: having had to sacrifice all his sheep and dogs already to the Cold Gods, and over the moon with a daughter-wife having birthed a son.

 do expect George to shed a bit of more light on that with crumbs here or there in tWoW and aDoS. As for the Doom, I expect we might learn a little bit more about it through the Faceless Men in Arya's POV, something along the lines of their involvment in causing the Doom, but still leaving a lot of questions open.

Edited by sweetsunray

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Given that Varys hates magic and his whole narrative deal is that his meticulous plot is going to fall apart because it doesn't account for the Long Night, I think I can safely say that you are reaching in this instance. Varys is called the spider because he has a web of contacts throughout two continents. The Others are associated with spiders because they're predatory and alien and want to drain the lands to the south of all life. Orbweavers vs Hunting Spiders. 

And again, the idea of a world ending event being kicked off by the castration of an adolescent mummer, kind of takes the wind out of its dramatic sails. 

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On 11/23/2018 at 10:10 AM, Lord Varys said:

What do you guys think would have happened if Aerea had survived as Balerion's rider? Do you think she would have been queen one day? Would they have married her to Aemon (after Daenerys' death)? She would not have been pushed aside after Aemon's death on Tarth the way Rhaenys and Jocelyn were, that much seems to be clear, no?

Not a chance.

Before Rhaenyra, the idea of a woman inheriting the Iron Throne was never anything more than the desperate backup plan of an impotent usurper who couldn't produce an heir of any gender, and had no male relatives other than the boys he was usurping (Maegor), and a frankly delusional and irrational Alysanne who had no basis to assert that Daenerys or Rhaenys had any claim to rule in their own right.

The century and a half of Lords of Dragonstone and Kings of Westeros had established time and again that a male Targaryen inherited over a female Targaryen. Alysanne might have been wise about a great many things, but she was out of her mind on this matter, and needlessly strained her relationship with her husband with such a baseless idea.

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9 minutes ago, HamSandLich said:

Given that Varys hates magic and his whole narrative deal is that his meticulous plot is going to fall apart because it doesn't account for the Long Night, I think I can safely say that you are reaching in this instance. Varys is called the spider because he has a web of contacts throughout two continents. The Others are associated with spiders because they're predatory and alien and want to drain the lands to the south of all life. Orbweavers vs Hunting Spiders. 

And again, the idea of a world ending event being kicked off by the castration of an adolescent mummer, kind of takes the wind out of its dramatic sails. 

It's not as if Varys volunteered to have his gentitals sacrificed. His feelings against magic, and him not accounting for the Long Night, does not mean his involantary sacrifice wasn't one of the links in the chain of events that led to the Others being a threat right now.

I know why he is called the spider. But George plays with the meaning and imagery of spiders, even in-world. Pycelle uses the nickname Spider to hint at Ned that Varys poisoned Lord Arryn. And even webspiders still eat whatever animal they catch in it: they're still predators. 

The rest is personal taste. George tends to work to drama through a chain of little actions done by and events happening to a whole score of people. 

Edited by sweetsunray

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Honestly, its tying together too many disparate events. Its like saying that Rohanne Webber disappeared and joined up with the Others, or that Qohor's sacrifices to the Black Goat are really to the Others, or whatever the hell R'hllor is is actually a link to the Others. The Others are anathema to fire, it makes no sense that a flame sacrifice by a guy working off of what is likely a bastardized Valyrian magical ritual would be able to contact them.

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11 minutes ago, HamSandLich said:

Honestly, its tying together too many disparate events. Its like saying that Rohanne Webber disappeared and joined up with the Others, or that Qohor's sacrifices to the Black Goat are really to the Others, or whatever the hell R'hllor is is actually a link to the Others. The Others are anathema to fire, it makes no sense that a flame sacrifice by a guy working off of what is likely a bastardized Valyrian magical ritual would be able to contact them.

If that flame hadn't turned blue, I'd agree. But George chose to have it turn color blue for some reason. Why? That's up to us to guess and speculate on, and that includes Others. Just because you don't like it is not good enough reason. And the Unsullied example makes clear it isn't necessarily Valyrian related. The Masters would throw away the genitals, but they decide to burn it, and the goddess they worship is theirs, nobody else's. Obviously they end up thinking Dany is the incarnation in the flesh of their warrior goddess, but the Unsullied have been doing this for ages too, before there ever was a Dany. Magic is magic, and trying to restrict it into cots you end up doing what Mel does. The Brotherhood without Banners practices fire magic, and yet it's also seeped and mixed with earth or tree magic.

Edited by sweetsunray

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54 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

`snipped`

The other questions will I fear remain unanswered. George obviously indulged in giving us a glimpse how bad a place Valyria is, and leaving it up to our imagination otherwise. If Septon Barth is not going to recount what she said, then George intends to never tell us. Typical Lovecraftian horror.

ETA: @The Fattest Leech informed me that the "worms with faces" described to have wanted to leave Aerea's body fit the name of the evil alien race that feeds on humans in Heinlein's "have space suit will travel"... the wormfaces. In a recent interview George said this was the first sci-fi book he ever read, gifted to him by his aunt. So, this is a Lovacraftian tribute to Heinlein most likely.

Here are some notes from GRRM regarding this story and a little more from another of his stories. The thing about it is that he seems to be having fun going back to his formative years and reestablishing in Fire & Blood the many ways the fire elements can consume. To be clear to other posters here, I am not saying ASOIAF is secret SciFi in any way shape or form. The author likes the stories he likes, and he is remaking the theme to fit this new fantasy narrative.

Yes, this will be a tad long, but I don't want to edit too much and lose any details.

GRRM: Along with the usual cowboys, knights, and green army men, I had all the space toys, the ray guns and rocket ships and hard plastic spacemen with the removable clear plastic helmets that were always getting lost. Best of all were the colored plastic aliens I bought for a nickel apiece from bins in Woolworth’s and Kresge’s. Some had big swollen brains and some had four arms, and some were spiders with faces or snakes with arms and heads. My favorite guy had a tiny little head and chest on top of a gigantic, hairy lower body. I gave them all names, and decided they were a gang of space pirates, led by the malignant big-brained Martian I called Jarn, who was not nearly as nice as Pinto Vortando. And of course I dreamed up endless stories of their adventures, and even made some halting attempts at writing one or two of them down.

Science fiction could be found in the movies as well. I saw Them and War of the Worlds and The Day the Earth Stood Still and This Island Earth and Destination Moon. And Forbidden Planet, which put all of them to shame. Little did I suspect that I was getting my first taste of Shakespeare there in the DeWitt Theater, courtesy of Dr. Morbius and Robby the Robot.

Most of my beloved funny books were science fiction of a sort as well. Superman was from another planet, wasn’t he? He came to Earth in a spaceship, how scientific could you get? The Martian Manhunter came from Mars, Green Lantern was given his ring by a crashed alien, and the Flash and the Atom got their powers in a lab. The comics offered pure space opera as well. There was Space Ranger (my favorite), Adam Strange (everybody else’s favorite), Tommy Tomorrow (nobody’s favorite), and this guy who drove a space cab along the space freeways … There were the Atomic Knights, post-holocaust heroes who patrolled a radioactive wasteland in suits of lead-lined armor, riding giant mutant Dalmations … and on a somewhat more elevated plane, there were the wonderful Classics Illustrated adaptions of War of the Worlds and The Time Machine, which gave me my first introduction to the works of H. G. Wells.

All that was only prelude, though. When I was ten years old, my mother's childhood friend Lucy Antonsson gave me a book for Christmas. Not a comic book, but a book book, a hardcover of Have Space Suit, Will Travel, by Robert A. Heinlein.

I was a little dubious at first, but I liked Paladin on TV, and the title suggested this might be about some kind of space Paladin, so I took it home and began to read about this kid named Kip, who lived in a small town and never went anywhere, just like me. Some critics have suggested that Citizen of the Galaxy is the best of the Heinlein juveniles. Citizen of the Galaxy is a fine book. So too are Tunnel Through the Sky, Starman Jones, Time for the Stars, and many of the others … but Have Space Suit, Will Travel towers above them all. Kip and PeeWee, Ace and the malt shop, the old used spacesuit (I could smell it), the Mother Thing, the wormfaces, the trek across the moon, the trial in the Lesser Magellanic Cloud with the fate of humanity at stake. “Die trying is the proudest human thing.” What could compare with that?

Nothing.

To a ten-year-old boy in 1958, Have Space Suit, Will Travel was crack with an Ed Emshwiller cover. I had to have more.

There was no way I could afford hardcovers, of course. Have Space Suit, Will Travel had cost $2.95, according to the price inside the dustwrapper … but the paperbacks on the spinner rack in the candy store on Kelly Parkway only went for 35¢, the price of three-and-a-half funny books. If I didn’t buy so many comics and skipped a Milky Way from time to time, I could scrape together the price of one of those. So I saved my dimes and nickels, stopped reading some comics I didn’t like all that much to begin with, played a few less games of Skee-Ball, avoided the Good Humor truck and Mister Softee when they came by, and started buying paperbacks.

Worlds and universes opened wide before me. I bought every Heinlein that I found; his “adult” books like The Man Who Sold the Moon and Revolt in 2100, since the other juveniles were not to be found. RAH was “the dean of science fiction,” it said so right on the back of his books. If he was the dean, he must be the best. He remained my favorite writer for years to come, and Have Space Suit, Will Travel remained my favorite book … until the day when I read The Puppet Masters. (<<<Leech here, yeah, this puppet idea is another thread in it's own ;))

Yes, in Have Space Suit, the Wormfaces are an alien race that are harvesting humans to consume them. There is plenty of fiery imagery that is given to them as well. Makes sense since this ASOIAF stuff happens in Valyria to fire people. There is a discussion in the story that Kip has with himself whether it is appropriate to refer to the wormfaces as cannibals since humans and wormfaces are not the same species. Kip likens the situation to humans farming and eating sheep. There are too many wormface references to add them all (over 100, I'm sure), so I will just add this one which is packed with good stuff! I will say that there is a major intergalactic trial at the end of this story, and the human race is (partially) saved by a green monkey... soooo :dunno:

  • But what was Wormface doing on Pluto?

    If you were invading another solar system, how would you start? I’m not joking; a dungeon on Pluto is no joke and I never laughed at Wormface. Would you just barge in, or toss your hat in first? They seemed far ahead of us in engineering but they couldn’t have known that ahead of time. Wouldn’t it be smart to build a supply base in that system in some spot nobody ever visited?

    Then you could set up advance bases, say on an airless satellite of a likely-looking planet, from which you could scout the surface of the target planet. If you lost your scouting base, you would pull back to main base and work out a new attack.

    Remember that while Pluto is a long way off to us, it was only five days from Luna for Wormface. Think about World War II, back when speeds were slow. Main Base is safely out of reach (U.S.A./Pluto) but only about five days from advance base (England/The Moon) which is three hours from theater-of-operations (France-Germany/Earth). That’s a slow way to operate but it worked for the Allies in World War II.

    I just hoped it would not work for Wormface’s gang. 

    Though I didn’t see anything to prevent it. 

    Somebody chucked down another can—spaghetti and meat balls. If it had been canned peaches, I might not have had the fortitude to do what I did next, which was to use it for a hammer before I opened it. I beat an empty can into a flat narrow shape and beat a point on it, which I sharpened on the edge of the catch basin. When I was through, I had a dagger—not a good one, but it made me feel less helpless.

    Then I ate. I felt sleepy and went to sleep in a warm glow. I was still a prisoner but I had a weapon of sorts and I believed that I had figured out what I was up against. Getting a problem analyzed is two-thirds of solving it. I didn’t have nightmares.

And from Sandkings, where  we have alien creatures purchased by Simon Kress from Jala Woe for the specific intent to worship Kress, and have now morphed into something not ever seen. Again, too many references to quote them all here, but these all include the "mother" maw pulsing and writhing and consuming. The sandkings eat a lot! I will skip to near the end where it is most detailed:

  • “Do not be absurd,” Wo said. “A first-stage sandking is more like a sperm than an infant. The wars temper and control them in nature. Only one in a hundred reaches second stage. Only one in a thousand achieves the third and final plateau, and becomes like Shade. Adult sandkings are not sentimental about the small maws. There are too many of them, and their mobiles are pests.” She sighed. “And all this talk wastes time. That white sandking is going to waken to full sentience soon. It is not going to need you any longer, and it hates you, and it will be very hungry. The transformation is taxing. The maw must eat enormous amounts both before and after. So you have to get out of there. Do you understand?”

    “I can’t,” Kress said. “My skimmer is destroyed, and I can’t get any of the others to start. I don’t know how to reprogram them. Can you come out for me?”

    “Yes,” said Wo. “Shade and I will leave at once, but it is more than two hundred kilometers from Asgard to you, and there is equipment we will need to deal with the deranged sandking you’ve created. You cannot wait there. You have two feet. Walk. Go due east, as near as you can determine, as quickly as you can. The land out there is pretty desolate. We’ll find you easily with an aerial search, and you’ll be safely away from the sandking. Do you understand?”

    “Yes,” said Simon Kress. “Yes, oh, yes.”

    They signed off, and he walked quickly toward the door. He was halfway there when he heard the noise—a sound halfway between a pop and a crack.

    One of the sandkings had split open. Four tiny hands covered with pinkish-yellow blood came up out of the gap and began to push the dead skin aside. Kress began to run.

 

Actually, now that I think about it, this includes the fiery Greeshka beings from A Song for Lya as well. I am sure there are more fiery creatures consuming in other stories, and they are usually rooted in religion, but I will stop here for now. I lied, I'm back- In this passage you can also see a very early idea starting to develop where George has the idea for Mel and Selyse to burn Shireen, and most likely in a cave, tunnel, or at a gate. I say gate ;)

  • On their heads rode the Greeshka. I’d expected to find the sight hideous. I didn’t. It was faintly disquieting, but only because I knew what it meant. The parasites were bright blobs of crimson goo, ranging in size from a pulsing wart on the back of one Shkeen skull to a great sheet of dripping, moving red that covered the head and shoulders of the smallest like a living cowl. The Greeshka lived by sharing the nutrients in the Shkeen bloodstream, I knew.

    And also by slowly—oh so slowly—consuming its host.

    Lya and I stopped a few yards from them, and watched them ring. Her face was solemn, and I think mine was. All of the others were smiling, and the songs that the bells sang were songs of joy. I squeezed Lyanna’s hand tightly. “Read,” I whispered. We read. Me: I read bells. Not the sound of bells, no, no, but the feel of bells, the emotion of bells, the bright clanging joy, the hooting-shouting-ringing loudness, the song of the Joined, the togetherness and the sharing of it all. I read what the Joined felt as they pealed their bells, their happiness and anticipation, their ecstasy in telling others of their clamorous contentment.

And this has been your daily dose of chunks of information you didn't know you wanted to know :lol:. Leech out!

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If that flame hadn't turned blue, I'd agree. But George chose to have it turn color blue for some reason. Why? That's up to us to guess and speculate on, and that includes Others. Just because you don't like it is not good enough reason. And the Unsullied example makes clear it isn't necessarily Valyrian related. The Masters would throw away the genitals, but they decide to burn it, and the goddess they worship is theirs, nobody else's. Obviously they end up thinking Dany is the incarnation in the flesh of their warrior goddess, but the Unsullied have been doing this for ages too, before there ever was a Dany. Magic is magic, and trying to restrict it into cots you end up doing what Mel does.

Maybe because Blue Flame is super hot as compared to regular flame? Not every blue thing is connected. Otherwise the Tullys and the Arryns and half the Tyroshi are definitely working for the Others. And you've just invalidated your own theory, if the Unsullied worship has nothing to do with Dany (an association which you seem to have pulled from out nowhere, they revere her certainly, but I see no signs of them equating her with the Lady of Spears), then sacrificing Varys' genitals thousands of leagues south of the Wall(which has been shown to block certain magic) has nothing to do with the Others.

Edited by HamSandLich

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22 minutes ago, HamSandLich said:

Maybe because Blue Flame is super hot as compared to regular flame? Not every blue thing is connected. Otherwise the Tullys and the Arryns and half the Tyroshi are definitely working for the Others. And you've just invalidated your own theory, if the Unsullied worship has nothing to do with Dany (an association which you seem to have pulled from out nowhere, they revere her certainly, but I see no signs of them equating her with the Lady of Spears), then sacrificing Varys' genitals thousands of leagues south of the Wall(which has been shown to block certain magic) has nothing to do with the Others.

Yes, maybe it just means it's the hottest flame there is. And true, bleu things may have various explanations. But you can't dismiss it, and pretend it's a red-yellow-orange flame, that is my point.

I'm not saying that the Others is the answer. It's just an example. I'm simply not ruling it out as a possibility. And you cannot exclude it either, and therefore cannot assume the sacrifice that happened to Varys is Valyria related. You don't know the origin of the ritual, how old it is. And we explicitly do not know who that voice is or what language it speaks, except that it can't be a language that Varys is familiar with (so no High Valyrian, or dialect, which doesn't mean anything).

Strawman: I never claimed Varys was "working" for the Others.

I don't see how it invalidates the Others. And since when is magic restricted to distance. If that's so, Myr is a long way off from Valyria. The Wall blocks certain magic: it prevents Jon from sensing Ghost, dragons don't or can't fly across it, and nobody can be wighted south of the Wall. Perhaps other magic can reach out North of the Wall.

Edited by sweetsunray

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3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And since when is magic restricted to distance. If that's so, Myr is a long way off from Valyria.

The important thing is that its South of the Wall, which, like the walls of Storm's End, is explicitly designed to stop magic.

Edited by HamSandLich

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