[spoiler] Dragonlore (dragons, dragonriders, dragon eggs, dragon skulls, you name it)

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, Jaak said:

So, listing dragonriders in Fire and Blood:

1. Aegon/1)Balerion
2. Visenya/2)Vhagar
3. Rhaenys+/3)Meraxes+
4. Aenys/4)Quicksilver
5. Rhaena/5)Dreamfyre
6. Maegor/1)Balerion
7. Aegon+/4)Quicksilver+
8. Jaehaerys/6)Vermithor
9. Alysanne/7)Silverwing
10. Aerea+/1)Balerion
11. Aemon/8)Caraxes
12. Baelon/2)Vhagar
13. Alyssa/9)Meleys
14. Rhaenys+/9)Meleys+
15. Viserys/1)Balerion+
16. Daemon+/8)Caraxes+
17. Laenor/10)Seasmoke
18. Rhaenyra/11)Syrax+
19. Laena/2)Vhagar
20. Aegon/12)Sunfyre+
21. Helaena/5)Dreamfyre
22. Aemond+/2)Vhagar+
23. Daeron/13)Tessarion
24. Jacaerys+/14)Vermax+
25. Lucerys+/15)Arrax+
26. Joffrey/16)Tyraxes+
27. Hugh/6)Vermithor
28. Ulf/7)Silverwing
29. Addam+/10)Seasmoke+
30. Nettles/17)Sheepstealer
31. Aegon/18)Stormcloud+
32. Baela/19)Moondancer+
33. Rhaena/20)Morning

Any who does not belong? Any who are missing?

Id be interested to see an egg count or list if you have one. Im still reading the book so it'll be a min before i get to any notes

[Ran]

A count of all the eggs mentioned would be neat, but I think it'd be hard to know when the same egg is being mentioned more than once.

Here's a solution to the riderless dragon business: dragons are creatures of magic, and are responsive to destiny/prophecy/whatever.

Drogon insisting on going with Dany into the House of the Undying was because that's where it was supposed to be. Drogon showed up at Daznak's Pit because it was time for Dany to fly, and it came to her in the Dothraki Sea because it was time for her to continue her destiny. One might say, "Well, these are just plot conveniences", and that may be true... but there's no reason not to suppose they have some kind of purpose.

Therefore, because dragons are not of human intelligence, but have a kind of alien intelligence, perhaps they perceive time and causation differently. So when Vhagar and Dreamfyre were asked to fly elsewhere without riders, without even being owned by riders, it was because it was their destiny to do so, and so they did it. The Targaryens may think they do it because they offered them baskets of roasted meats  tossed along for them to gobble, or because they ask nicely, or because the hop on one leg three times while crossing their eyes, but in reality the dragons do it because they must.

The end.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Onto something else, I’m a bit surprised that dragon eggs were (apparently) treated so casually by the Targaryens. 

Considering the furore after 3 eggs were sold to the Sealord, and Jahaerys’s lengthy warning about the consequences if another dragonlord dynasty arises in the east, one would think Dragonmount would be regularly inspected by “audit teams” (no doubt a dangerous job) to count each new egg that was produced, and if possible, to move those eggs to a secure place immediately.

Wild dragons being able to just pop up without much apparent tracking of their births seems quite irresponsible.

There should be a meticulous log of how many eggs were laid in which year and which dragons emerged from which clutch.

The likes of Cannibal and Sheepstealer just being able to emerge from unknown eggs at some unknown point in time, implies that many eggs went unrecorded.

How easy would it be for determined foreign powers or even rich Westerosi lords to hire professional thieves to sneak around Dragonmount looking for unclaimed eggs?

It is a surprise it took so long for the Sealord to get his clutch of three, given the resources at his disposal.

[Lord Varys]

I have a better solution:

What about giving those dragons riders if you want to get them from point A to point B? There were more than enough Targaryens and Velaryons (and even Baratheons) around. What about having Aemon and Baelon and Alyssa going to Dragonstone to claim their dragons and only house their dragons at the Dragonpit after they had flown to KL? What about having the dragons producing eggs and hatchlings in the Dragonpit only after they were housed there?

Or for what it is worth - what about mentioning that Jaehaerys did have to get Dreamfyre from Harrenhal to KL after his sister died there? Dreamfyre is an odd case, anyway. She should have had a rider between Rhaena and Helaena. It is fine that Daella was dragonless, being afraid of dragons, but Saera certainly could have had one, one that remained in the Dragonpit after she fled and had to be killed, and the same goes for Viserra (although she wouldn't have ridden it all that long).

Not sure we can pin eggs down, not even guess at how many eggs were produced and hatched. We have at least 13 dragons hatching during the reign of Aegon I (Quicksilver + Dreamfyre + Vermithor & Silverwing + nine unnamed dragons). Two dragon hatching in 37 AC after Aenys named Maegor Hand. Then three eggs laid on Fair Isle hatched after arriving on Dragonstone - along with many more. There was no shortage of dragons, neither on Dragonstone nor in the Dragonpit.

We can, perhaps, pin down who claimed hatchlings given to him/her/adult dragons, and who got a dragon from an egg put in the cradle. Among the former category seem to belong:

1. Visenya > Vhagar

2. Aegon > Balerion

3. Rhaenys > Meraxes

4. Aenys > Quicksilver

5. Rhaena > Dreamfyre

6. Aerea > Balerion

7. Aemon > Caraxes

8. Baelon > Vhagar

9. Alyssa > Meleys

10. Viserys > Balerion

11. Daemon > Caraxes

12. Laena > Vhagar

13. Aegon > Sunfyre (confirmed, I think, by the fact that we know Sunfyre was born on Dragonstone)

14. Helaena > Dreamfyre

15. Aemond > Vhagar

16. Hugh > Vermithor

17. Ulf > Silverwing

18. Addam > Seasmoke

19. Sheepstealer > Nettles

Dragons claimed from eggs put in cradles are:

1. Jaehaerys > Vermithor

2. Alysanne > Silverwing

3. Laenor > Seasmoke (contentious, could also be a hatchling given to him)

4. Rhaenyra > Syrax (contentious, could also be a hatchling given to her)

5. Jacaerys > Vermax

6. Daeron > Tessarion

7. Lucerys > Arrax

8. Joffrey > Tyraxes

9. Baela > Moondancer

10. Aegon > Stormcloud

11. Jaehaera > Morghul (never ridden)

12. Jaehaerys > Shrykos (never ridden)

13. Rhaena > Morning

This would imply that it was only the generation of Jaehaerys' grandchildren - either Rhaenys or Viserys I or both - who actually put the 'dragon eggs into cradles' tradition properly into effect. Even if an egg hatched from the egg in Aemon's cradle he didn't bond with that dragon. He picked Caraxes from a number of dragons in the Dragonpit.

 

 

[Lord Varys]

25 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

There should be a meticulous log of how many eggs were laid in which year and which dragons emerged from which clutch.

The likes of Cannibal and Sheepstealer just being able to emerge from unknown eggs at some unknown point in time, implies that many eggs went unrecorded.

How easy would it be for determined foreign powers or even rich Westerosi lords to hire professional thieves to sneak around Dragonmount looking for unclaimed eggs?

It is a surprise it took so long for the Sealord to get his clutch of three, given the resources at his disposal.

Ah, well, you presuppose that wild dragons actually laid eggs - we hear nothing about that. And we have actual information that the dragons started to leave the premises of the citadel of Dragonstone during Rhaena's rule there. This is the earliest point in time wild dragons are mentioned.

One assumes the assumption was that wild dragons protect their own clutches if they lay eggs, but I agree that it is odd that the Targaryens would not fear some Lyseni or Volantene dragonlord descendants would show up and try to claim and steal both the dragons and their hypothetical eggs.

As for the Braavosi:

There is no hint the Sealord or anyone in Braavos actually wanted dragon eggs. They bought what was offered, sure, but there is no hint whatsoever they asked Elissa to steal the eggs or anything of that sort.

[Jaak]

7 hours ago, Jaak said:

 

1. Aegon/1)Balerion
2. Visenya/2)Vhagar
3. Rhaenys+/3)Meraxes+

Page 5 "Before they wed", also meaning before 2 BC. No further dating, no order.

Regarding the outsider dragonriders: when Jaehaerys got worried about outsiders getting dragon eggs (multiple request to Rhaena, successful theft by Elissa), he established a policy to pursue any stolen dragon eggs or "chickens" to Yi Ti by dragons, hoping two adult dragons would outmatch the dragons and their protectors on land.

And after Aerea´s flight, Jaehaerys decided that the extended royal family also could not be trusted and established corps of Dragon Guards (too late - Maegor should have done so, had he done it after Rhaena and Aenys gave him the warning, that would have stopped Jaehaerys and Alysanne).

How much of the corps was posted at Dragonpit, how much at Dragonstone?

We have that mention of 12 would-be dragontamers of Cannibal whose bones littered his cave before Sowing - no one would try during Sowing itself.

The death toll of Sowing was 16. Of which Cannibal took at least 3 - Silver Denys and his "sons", who had been trying for Sheepstealer. That leaves 13. Of which Sheepstealer personally killed "more than the 3 castle dragons together" - at least 7. 2 are by name attributed to castle dragons.

If pre-Sowing dragontaming attempts left a death toll of 12 by Cannibal, how many died trying to tame Sheepstealer? And given the fact that Cannibal resisted taming had attracted attention of would-be dragontamers, why did Dragonguards not react?

Where were the Dragonguards when Aemond mounted Vhagar unauthorized? At Dragonpit of King´s Landing, all 77 of them, with Dragonstone unguarded?

[direpupy]

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But dragons are not horses. They a freakishly large and extreme dangerous predators. I can see Daemon leading Vhagar around - considering that she and Caraxes were as close as Laena and Daemon were - but the average, run-of-the-mill stable boy or dragonkeeper? And a different dragonrider who was never close to Vhagar, say? Do we imagine Jaehaerys and Vermithor being able to push her around while riderless, getting her from Dragonstone to KL?

The horses where just to give a real world example of a animal than can be ridden, and wolfs where dangerous predators to before we domesticated them into dogs, so predators can be domesticated.

I do not imagine a stable boy or dragonkeeper moving a full size dragon, feed and care yes, moving no, that i imagine would be done by a dragonrider using in part his/her own dragon to goad along the riderless one.

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I think terms like 'dragon ward/yard' and the like imply they are somewhere on the premises of Dragonstone but not necessarily in caves. Pits and the like implies caves, too, and there certainly are caves there, as well. The first confirmed wild dragons leave the premise during Rhaena's aegis on Dragonstone - which would imply that's the time when Sheepstealer hatched and got away.

A ward/yard where you feed a dragon is not the same as the place where they sleep and hide from the rain (which dragons hate)

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I have difficulty to picture that, just as I've difficulty wrapping my heard around a lot of the dragon logistics things, and I have difficulty buying that as actually happening.

I can imagine difficulty with this but as ran said it did happen, so i guess this is just one of those things that comes down to what is called "suspense of disbelieve" where you just have to roll with what they author serves up even do you can not imagine it happening.

[Jaak]

4. Aenys/4)Quicksilver

Page 53, but dating/age not specified

5. Rhaena/5)Dreamfyre

Page 56 - age 12 (35 AC)

6. Maegor/1)Balerion

Page 65 - 37 AC (age 25). His lack of dragon drew comment in page 57, in 35 AC (age 23)

7. Aegon+/4)Quicksilver+

page 88 - 43 AC (age 17). His lack of dragon (and his wife´s having one) drew contemporary comment (and stupid reaction from Aenys) in 42, when he was 16.

[Jaak]

To recapitulate a piece of dragonlore previously discussed:

The tally of Red Sowing was 4 successes, 16 deaths of whom at least 2 were non-attempters (the sons of Denys), 48 injuries and an unknown number of attempts failed unhurt.

Before Red Sowing, the tally was 0 successes, 12 deaths by Cannibal, unknown number of injuries and unknown number of casualties of Sheepstealer.

For the trueborn Targaryens and Velaryons, the tally was 28 successes, 1 death (Aerea), no recorded nonfatal injuries, and no recorded failures unhurt (other than that foiled by Dragonguard)

 

We are told that approaching an old dragon was dangerous even for a Targaryen.

In 120, Aegon was 10, and Vhagar 171.

In 54, Aerea was 11 and Balerion 168.

It is also listed that a dragon is especially dangerous shortly after losing rider. Maegor had been dead for 6 years - Laena for a few months or less.

Yet Aerea died, and Aegon returned in full control after a short circuit.

[DMC]

7 hours ago, Jaak said:

In 120, Aegon* was 10, and Vhagar 171.

*Aemond.  Thanks for the tallies - interesting!

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Jaak said:

For the trueborn Targaryens and Velaryons, the tally was 28 successes, 1 death (Aerea), no recorded nonfatal injuries, and no recorded failures unhurt (other than that foiled by Dragonguard)

Aerea wasn't killed by her dragon, nor did her death have anything to do with Balerion.

 

[Jaak]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Aerea wasn't killed by her dragon, nor did her death have anything to do with Balerion.

Barth professes a firm surprise that although Balerion did not directly attack Aerea, he carried her to a danger where Barth would have been "very surprised" if Aerea went there willingly, and which did in the event kill Aerea. So essentially Aerea was killed by her dragon - the only Targaryen out of 29.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Jaak said:

Barth professes a firm surprise that although Balerion did not directly attack Aerea, he carried her to a danger where Barth would have been "very surprised" if Aerea went there willingly, and which did in the event kill Aerea. So essentially Aerea was killed by her dragon - the only Targaryen out of 29.

Balerion didn't *know* his rider would face dangers at Valyria, and it seems he actually saved her from what was injuring him. He couldn't save her from the things, of course, but who do you think flew Balerion back to KL? Aerea did that, not the dragon himself. He started on Dragonstone and one assume if he intended to return to Westeros he would have gone there, not to KL.

[Jaak]

45 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Balerion didn't *know* his rider would face dangers at Valyria, and it seems he actually saved her from what was injuring him. He couldn't save her from the things, of course, but who do you think flew Balerion back to KL? Aerea did that, not the dragon himself. He started on Dragonstone and one assume if he intended to return to Westeros he would have gone there, not to KL.

Barth´s guess is that Aerea at least expected some trouble in Valyria, and would have directed Balerion elsewhere, had he obeyed her.

[LadyTargaryen1]

Did we get more descriptions of dragons?

[BrainFireBob]

Random theories:

Dragons are tied to families that they are related to

That Volantene dragonriders referred to the Targaryen strain Saera introduced

Each "true" Targaryen is coterminal with the quickening of a dragon egg- their egg that completes them.

 

You can ride a different dragon, but it's a symbiosis thing- say, between the pair you are 1 human, 1 dragon. Need the right match.

Hence putting eggs in cradles- you send off for the egg getting warm. Also perhaps it takes a certain proximity- hence Princes of Dragonstone. Also, dragonseeds- quickened seeds mean more eggs.

 

Therefore, Dany's dragons are her egg, her brother's egg, and her son's eg.

 

Wild hare: Maegor's dragon "mate" was Cannibal. 

 

[Jaak]

Compare and contrast the disappearance of Rhaena with that of Aerea.

Rhaena managed to stay out of human contact for months. She did not visit any lords, yet she was seen... only in Westeros from Barrowlands to Red Mountains. But no peasants complained to Jaehaerys about theft of sheep, nor any forest wardens about poaching of wild game.

Rhaena did not catch a firewyrm infestation in Westeros, but when she finally showed up on Greenstone, she was also not reported as being in rags like Aerea. Somehow she was able to keep her clothes on.

Demonstrating that a dragonrider with control over her dragon can stay on the move for months without any overwhelming practical catches.

 

[HexMachina]

2 hours ago, Jaak said:

Compare and contrast the disappearance of Rhaena with that of Aerea.

Rhaena managed to stay out of human contact for months. She did not visit any lords, yet she was seen... only in Westeros from Barrowlands to Red Mountains. But no peasants complained to Jaehaerys about theft of sheep, nor any forest wardens about poaching of wild game.

Rhaena did not catch a firewyrm infestation in Westeros, but when she finally showed up on Greenstone, she was also not reported as being in rags like Aerea. Somehow she was able to keep her clothes on.

Demonstrating that a dragonrider with control over her dragon can stay on the move for months without any overwhelming practical catches.

 

Apples and oranges. Westeros is likely far more hospitable than what remains of Valyria. It’s not like Aerea would have been able to flinch some old peasant clothing from a poor farmer or whatever.

as for control,, I see it as a Dany/drogon situation. She doesn’t lack complete control but for whatever reason (call it fate, destiny, prophecy, plot) Balerion refuses to leave the vicinity of Valyria as Drogon refuses to leave the vicinity of Dragonstone

[Jaak]

1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Apples and oranges. Westeros is likely far more hospitable than what remains of Valyria. It’s not like Aerea would have been able to flinch some old peasant clothing from a poor farmer or whatever.

as for control,, I see it as a Dany/drogon situation. She doesn’t lack complete control but for whatever reason (call it fate, destiny, prophecy, plot) Balerion refuses to leave the vicinity of Valyria as Drogon refuses to leave the vicinity of Dragonstone

To the contrary, I define it that both do lack complete control. As Barth stated, he would have been most surprised if she went there willingly - meaning that as a 11 year old, she had heard enough of Valyria that had she had control, she would have steered Balerion anywhere else... Volantis, Mantarys, Slaver's Bay, Dothraki Sea, anywhere but Valyria - and in Essos, would have been able to stay clad, fed and free of firewyrms.

[The Sleeper]

19 minutes ago, Jaak said:

To the contrary, I define it that both do lack complete control. As Barth stated, he would have been most surprised if she went there willingly - meaning that as a 11 year old, she had heard enough of Valyria that had she had control, she would have steered Balerion anywhere else... Volantis, Mantarys, Slaver's Bay, Dothraki Sea, anywhere but Valyria - and in Essos, would have been able to stay clad, fed and free of firewyrms.

I think complete lack of control would have meant that Balerion would have killed her or thrown her off. Like Drogon, Balerion tolerated her mounting him, but she didn't have sufficient control to direct his flight. Nothing else makes sense, even if she had flown him to Valyria she wouldn't have stayed there, willingly. I also doubt that she had sufficient control to fly him back to King's Landing, especially being on death's door as she was. I do think Balerion instinctively tried to save her.