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Lord Varys

[spoiler] Dragonlore (dragons, dragonriders, dragon eggs, dragon skulls, you name it)

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Here something to discuss the flying beasts. I have to go to sleep now, but I'd like to open up with the fact that dragons do appear a lot more like horses through Gyldayn's glasses.

And:

The Aerea thing could be a hint that our friend Sunfyre did not actually sense Aegon's need or any of that. He may have just wanted to go home, like Balerion apparently did. After all, we do learn Sunfyre hatched on Dragonstone, indicating Aegon II was not one of the princes who got a dragon egg in the cradle but rather a recently hatched (and very beautiful) young dragon from Dragonstone.

On the other hand, it is also possible that Aerea did actually sort of master Balerion (after all, she got him to fly back to KL, did she not?), and the mental link or whatever was just not clear enough. If Aerea wanted to fly 'home', say, meaning KL, and the Black Dread thought she wanted back home where he came from - Valyria - then this could explain why he flew there. After all, if Balerion had any inclination to fly to Valyria why on earth didn't he do that during the years he was riderless?

Edited by Lord Varys

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Here something to discuss the flying beasts. I have to go to sleep now, but I'd like to open up with the fact that dragons do appear a lot more like horses through Gyldayn's glasses.

And:

The Aerea thing could be a hint that our friend Sunfyre did not actually sense Aegon's need or any of that. He may have just wanted to go home, like Balerion apparently did. After all, we do learn Sunfyre hatched on Dragonstone, indicating Aegon II was not one of the princes who got a dragon egg in the cradle but rather a recently hatched (and very beautiful) young dragon from Dragonstone.

On the other hand, it is also possible that Aerea did actually sort of master Balerion (after all, she got him to fly back to KL, did she not?), and the mental link or whatever was just not clear enough. If Aerea wanted to fly 'home', say, meaning KL, and the Black Dread thought she wanted back home where he came from - Valyria - then this could explain he flew there. After all, if Balerion had any inclination to fly to Valyria why on earth didn't he do that during the years he was riderless?

Balerion and her were both attacked. He got slashed by what could've been another dragon and she got infected by  fire chimera  worms. 

She survived and Valyria for a year and only went home when she became sick. Possibly another person infected her. IDK Valyria is livable,  but something keeeps people from leaving there alive. 

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1 minute ago, lysmonger said:

Balerion and her were both attacked. He got slashed by what could've been another dragon and she got infected by  fire chimera  worms. 

She survived and Valyria for a year and only went home when she became sick. Possibly another person infected her. IDK Valyria is livable,  but something keeeps people from leaving there alive. 

The wound to Balerion has me wondering. Firewyrms don’t have claws to slash with. They are big worms, snakelike, apparently filled with dragonlike fire. The slash to Balerion indicates some type of clawed beast. It is intriguing.

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George RR Martin clearly doesnt like the idea : everyone in Valyria is dead and its just a  pit with lava.. 

Perhaps the Valryians who survived the doom felt it shouldnt be turned back into a place of civilization, but it should be a place for sorcerers and magical beasts. 

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I am now a bit confused by how dragon riders pair up with their dragons. I thought the dragon chose the rider, but I recall in this book someone telling one of the Targaryens to pick a dragon to ride. Then didn't they say that Aerea picked Balerion?  Of course, it was stated that Balerion might reject her and throw her off. The whole process appears to be a bit haphazard and extremely dangerous. However, Balerion must have been her dragon, but why did he fly to Valryia? I think she must have wanted to go there. 

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1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The wound to Balerion has me wondering. Firewyrms don’t have claws to slash with. They are big worms, snakelike, apparently filled with dragonlike fire. The slash to Balerion indicates some type of clawed beast. It is intriguing.

perhaps it couldve been a wvyern in southoryos.. but still i think it was a dragon dragon

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Something tells me Euron has went to Valyria and mayhaps something let him live once he was there. Once they realized he wanted to see the world burn.

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For one thing I doubt that Aerea survived on her own in Valyria. Like Dany with Drogon, she probably survived as long as she did on Balerion's kills and him keeping other nasties away. 

It does sound a bit though like Balerion tried to save her though, doesn't it? 

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So what’s up with the last reference to the Cannibal in the book, supposedly  seen dipping his wings in respect as he flew over the ship carrying Corlys Velaryon’s corpse?

Of course, the whole respectful wing dipping part is simply an embellishment. But the randomness of the reference is nevertheless intriguing. The Sea Snake had no particular connection to dragons, and certainly none to the Cannibal in particular. So there was no obvious reason for people to fabricate this sighting.

Could it therefore be unrelated to the Sea Snake, and a hint to the Cannibal’s last departure from Dragonstone instead, to destinations unknown?

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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9 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Could it therefore be unrelated to the Sea Snake, and a hint to the Cannibal’s last departure from Dragonstone instead, to destinations unknown?

Nay, the Cannibal and Silverwing are still there for the last grand dragonrider standoff to happen during the reign of Aegon III - Alys Rivers' son will wield Dark Sister (recovered from his father Aemond's corpse in the Gods Eye) and challenge Aegon III. He will either mount Silverwing or the Cannibal, and Prince Viserys will be his brother's champion (along with Rhaena and Morning), mounting the other dragon.

Considering the ominous reputation of Alys - which might very likely extend to her young son as he grows to manhood - the Cannibal would be the perfect dragon for him, I'd say.

Harrenhal only passes to Lucas Lothston in 153 AC, so Alys and her son can hold Harrenhal, I'd think until the late 140s or around 150 AC. The Cannibal and Silverwing/Morning are then likely going to kill each other - or suffer injuries that lead them to die shortly thereafter.

And thus the Targaryens will be down to crippled and twisted dragons the last of which will die in 153 AC.

The idea that the Cannibal just 'disappeared' seems to be off the table if you ask me.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Nay, the Cannibal and Silverwing are still there for the last grand dragonrider standoff to happen during the reign of Aegon III - Alys Rivers' son will wield Dark Sister (recovered from his father Aemond's corpse in the Gods Eye) and challenge Aegon III. He will either mount Silverwing or the Cannibal, and Prince Viserys will be his brother's champion (along with Rhaena and Morning), mounting the other dragon.

Considering the ominous reputation of Alys - which might very likely extend to her young son as he grows to manhood - the Cannibal would be the perfect dragon for him, I'd say.

Harrenhal only passes to Lucas Lothston in 153 AC, so Alys and her son can hold Harrenhal, I'd think until the late 140s or around 150 AC. The Cannibal and Silverwing/Morning are then likely going to kill each other - or suffer injuries that lead them to die shortly thereafter.

And thus the Targaryens will be down to crippled and twisted dragons the last of which will die in 153 AC.

The idea that the Cannibal just 'disappeared' seems to be off the table if you ask me.

Hang on. On what do you base this? Is the last dragon duel recorded in one of the other historical short stories?

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He's indulging in "headcanon", aka speculating wildly.

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6 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Hang on. On what do you base this? Is the last dragon duel recorded in one of the other historical short stories?

No, but it seems clear that the Harrenhal affair is not going to just end with a whimper. Else the regents could have put an end to that. Why did we the crazy witch with her post-hypnotic suggestion? Is this just going nowhere?

It might certainly be no dragons are going to be involved in that - but Aemond's son is going to do something in the future, and why should the last dragons be involved in that? It would be to great of an opportunity to miss.

But sure, it is certainly still possible that Silverwing and the Cannibal die some other way. But it wouldn't make for a great story. And with the false Daerons coming the real son of Aemond should be doing something greater than just pretend he was a king.

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Anyone notice the casual reference to Balerion finally stopping to grow, in the same passage where it is mentioned that Viserys claimed him in the Dragonpit?

I thought Dragons never stopped growing. We also have evidence of dragons with horns that dwarfed Balerion’s, indicating he had not reached some inherent size limit.

A subtle hint therefore, connecting Balerion’s halted growth (and increasing weakness) with his residence in the Dragonpit, rather than on Dragonstone?

Not the first time we are told the Dragonpit inhibited dragon growth. Maybe dragons have to lair in volcanos to stay healthy.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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I liked learning a bit more about Meleys, the two women who rode her certainly cut from a similar cloth it seems. 

With Aerea and Balerion, I think its difficult to say who lead who.  She clearly wanted out of the situation she was in, so there is no way to know wher she'd have actually wanted to go.  She clearly wanted adventure so maybe she did want to go to Valyria and see what was there.  There must have been some type of real dragon-rider bond with Balerion considering he did bring her back and didn't kill her or leave her.

I also started to wonder about the ages people mount a dragons for the first time.  Aemon, Baelon and Alyysa had their little competition and were 17, 16 and 15 respectively.  Helaena, I think was 12?  Baela 14?  Is there a list anywhere of the ages everyone was when the first gained a dragon and who are the youngest one's? I'm sure there was a scared child who fled who's name I've completely forgotten me who rode one to escape. 

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31 minutes ago, naseridrl said:

I also started to wonder about the ages people mount a dragons for the first time.  Aemon, Baelon and Alyysa had their little competition and were 17, 16 and 15 respectively.  Helaena, I think was 12?  Baela 14?  Is there a list anywhere of the ages everyone was when the first gained a dragon and who are the youngest one's? I'm sure there was a scared child who fled who's name I've completely forgotten me who rode one to escape. 

Does not seem to be yet. Start compiling?

Rhaenyra was expressly 7. Aemond 10. Aegon Dragonsbane was the scared child at 9...10.

Helaena was introduced as rider of Dreamfyre age 12 with no hint how long already (in Princess and Queen - not yet updated to Fire and Blood). Laena was introduced as rider of Vhagar age 12 (ditto) and Alysanne of Silverwing (ditto).

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1 minute ago, Jaak said:

Does not seem to be yet. Start compiling?

Rhaenyra was expressly 7. Aemond 10. Aegon Dragonsbane was the scared child at 9...10.

Helaena was introduced as rider of Dreamfyre age 12 with no hint how long already (in Princess and Queen - not yet updated to Fire and Blood). Laena was introduced as rider of Vhagar age 12 (ditto) and Alysanne of Silverwing (ditto).

Aegon III, thank you!!  I knew it was someone important I just had a complete brain freeze.

They all seem to start really quite young and get younger particularly those who are then involved in the dance era.  I suppose as long as your strong enough to climb up and hold on, then you can give it a go.  Doesn't mean it'll work out.

Moreover some are mounting fully grown dragons and others are waiting for their own hatchling to grow like with Baela and Moondancer.

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1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Anyone notice the casual reference to Balerion finally stopping to grow, in the same passage where it is mentioned that Viserys claimed him in the Dragonpit?

I thought Dragons never stopped growing. We also have evidence of dragons with horns that dwarfed Balerion’s, indicating he had not reached some inherent size limit.

A subtle hint therefore, connecting Balerion’s halted growth (and increasing weakness) with his residence in the Dragonpit, rather than on Dragonstone?

Not the first time we are told the Dragonpit inhibited dragon growth. Maybe dragons have to lair in volcanos to stay healthy.

Might be. But then, perhaps dragons stop growing shortly before their death. Balerion was not exactly in great shape when Viserys claimed him.

However, mentioning the Dragonpit, dragon logistics are really a mess in this and ridiculous when you think about it. How on earth did they get riderless Vhagar and Dreamfyre from Dragonstone and Harrenhal, respectively, to KL and into the Dragonpit? Balerion was there already, brought to KL by the dying Aerea, but how did they get him into the pit without a rider? Did they ask him nicely?

The same goes to lesser degree also for the young dragons that are seen but not named while Rhaena rules Dragonstone - Caraxes and Meleys among them.

The same goes for Vermithor and Silverwing hiding at Storm's End - something that was ridiculous in the old version of TSotD and is still not exactly a great plot point here.

2 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Could be. Another option could be that his visit to Valyria damaged his health also. 

It could have contributed to it, yes, but the wounds seem to have healed and he lived another 40+ years.

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