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Lord Varys

[spoiler] Dragonlore (dragons, dragonriders, dragon eggs, dragon skulls, you name it)

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another thing I noticed was there seemed to be more mention of passengers that I recall hearing before with the dragons.  Rhaena and her companions, Alyssa with her babies.  The only other dragon I remember being mentioned as taking a passenger was Vhagar a few times.

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6 minutes ago, naseridrl said:

another thing I noticed was there seemed to be more mention of passengers that I recall hearing before with the dragons.  Rhaena and her companions, Alyssa with her babies.  The only other dragon I remember being mentioned as taking a passenger was Vhagar a few times.

Kingsguard also were passenger on Silverwing and Vermithor, at least once.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

However, mentioning the Dragonpit, dragon logistics are really a mess in this and ridiculous when you think about it. How on earth did they get riderless Vhagar and Dreamfyre from Dragonstone and Harrenhal, respectively, to KL and into the Dragonpit? Balerion was there already, brought to KL by the dying Aerea, but how did they get him into the pit without a rider? Did they ask him nicely?

If i recall correctly Daemon managed to bring Vhagar with him from Pentos to Driftmark even do Laena went by ship with there daughters, so apparently dragons can be persuaded to follow other dragons and thus the riders of those other dragons can take a riderless dragon with them if need be.

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9 minutes ago, direpupy said:

If i recall correctly Daemon managed to bring Vhagar with him from Pentos to Driftmark even do Laena went by ship with there daughters, so apparently dragons can be persuaded to follow other dragons and thus the riders of those other dragons can take a riderless dragon with them if need be.

Yep. Daemon flew overhead with "both dragons". They clearly can be convinced to stick together even if one is riderless. I presume this is a feature of the "domesticated" dragons rather than the more wild ones, and I'm guessing very young ones may be more unruly.

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12 minutes ago, direpupy said:

If i recall correctly Daemon managed to bring Vhagar with him from Pentos to Driftmark even do Laena went by ship with there daughters, so apparently dragons can be persuaded to follow other dragons and thus the riders of those other dragons can take a riderless dragon with them if need be.

But Vhagar wasn't riderless as such, she was just not ridden by Laena during that time and Vhagar and Caraxes are mimicking the affection of their riders - just as they later mimic their hatred. It doesn't strike me as very likely this could be easily done with a dragon who was really riderless in the sense that he simply had no living rider.

Laena could have basically *told* Vhagar, like a person might address a dog, 'Go, Vhagar, go with Caraxes and Daemon, we'll see each other on the other side of the sea.'

For riderless Vhagar, Balerion, Dreamfyre, and all the others there is no such scenario imaginable, and the Dragonpit is basically a huge prison and (possibly) unnatural habitat for a dragon. It is very difficult to imagine that they would allow themselves to be herded in there.

What do we make of the legend of Rhaena and the eggs of Vermithor and Silverwing. Jaehaerys supposedly put an egg in Aemon's cradle, but if it hatched - which is not mentioned - the dragon wasn't his considering he later actually picked Caraxes at the Dragonpit - and the same goes with his two dragonriding siblings. It is strange that Rhaena supposedly started this but Jaehaerys and Alysanne apparently were not the ones to continue it.

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The tamed dragons can be compelled to follow other dragons even without a rider on their back, or any rider at all. That's all there is to it, really. Sometimes one's theories about how things work are right, and sometimes they are wrong.

 

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7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But Vhagar wasn't riderless as such, she was just not ridden by Laena during that time and Vhagar and Caraxes are mimicking the affection of their riders - just as they later mimic their hatred. It doesn't strike me as very likely this could be easily done with a dragon who was really riderless in the sense that he simply had no living rider.

Actually it is explicitly said that Vermithor and Silverwing allowed people to approach them when the call for he seeds came because they where use to humans, the same is said of Syrax even do her rider was alive at the time. So dragons who have had a rider in the past seem domesticated enough that it would still work even do they no longer have a rider.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

For riderless Vhagar, Balerion, Dreamfyre, and all the others there is no such scenario imaginable, and the Dragonpit is basically a huge prison and (possibly) unnatural habitat for a dragon. It is very difficult to imagine that they would allow themselves to be herded in there.

Thats not what i get from the description of the Dragonpit, it is shaped to have holes that resemble the caves that dragons in nature make there lairs in. So i do not think they would be to bothered by staying in the Dragonpit, as to the stories of it being unhealty for them i have a feeling that has more to do with the lack of the heat from a volcano like the Dragonmont warming there lair.

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14 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Actually it is explicitly said that Vermithor and Silverwing allowed people to approach them when the call for he seeds came because they where use to humans, the same is said of Syrax even do her rider was alive at the time. So dragons who have had a rider in the past seem domesticated enough that it would still work even do they no longer have a rider.

Approaching is one thing. Directing a dragon is another, one assumes. It would not do just not being eaten or burned, the dragon also has to do what you want. Or phrase it differently - if a dragon does what I want, never mind that I'm not its rider, how exactly am I different from a rider aside from the fact that I don't ride it right now? Couldn't we all reasonably expect that a person getting a dragon to fly from Dragonstone to KL and go into the Dragonpit should also be able to get a dragon to expect him/her on its back?

14 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Thats not what i get from the description of the Dragonpit, it is shaped to have holes that resemble the caves that dragons in nature make there lairs in. So i do not think they would be to bothered by staying in the Dragonpit, as to the stories of it being unhealty for them i have a feeling that has more to do with the lack of the heat from a volcano like the Dragonmont warming there lair.

That might very well be. It still seems that the dragons on Dragonstone live out in the open - that's the vibe I get from Aerea spending times with the dragons there - also wondering how Balerion got from KL - after Maegor's death - to Dragonstone. Or why or how the hell Quicksilver got from Dragonstone (where she was for Aenys' funeral) to KL (where she was claimed by Aegon). Did anyone bother to tell the dragon to go there? Did anyone move her there? If so, why on earth would anyone do that?

And on second thought - why didn't the Faith Militant slay Dreamfyre after they seized KL after they had driven Aenys away?

Also, why bother moving dragons who hatch on Dragonstone to the Dragonpit? Just a safety precaution so they can't be claimed and stolen?

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Now that it's established that dragons don't need riders to do things like sticking together, this certainly gives more insight into Dany's relationship with her riderless dragons, and their relationships with one another as well. Rhaegal and Viserion do seem to largely stick together, choosing to stick to lairs in Meereen once free rather than just rushing off in random directions.

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Well, they are not yet really that old dragons (rather drakes, as the term for dragons in their youth seems to be), and they were always fed by their mother before they were imprisoned. If their needs are not met in Meereen or they don't feel comfortable there they might very well leave like Drogon did. But he is always more adventurous.

Dragons being this stationary makes it very odd indeed that Balerion suddenly wanted to fly Valyria, especially while he had a rider. But perhaps Aerea had more to do with that than Barth later assumes. It wouldn't be the first time that the girls are underestimated in that book. And if weak-willed Viserys could master (ailing) Balerion then should be able to that, too.

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17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Approaching is one thing. Directing a dragon is another, one assumes. It would not do just not being eaten or burned, the dragon also has to do what you want. Or phrase it differently - if a dragon does what I want, never mind that I'm not its rider, how exactly am I different from a rider aside from the fact that I don't ride it right now? Couldn't we all reasonably expect that a person getting a dragon to fly from Dragonstone to KL and go into the Dragonpit should also be able to get a dragon to expect him/her on its back?

Well i have to disagree you for example can lead a semi-wild horse by the rains just fine but it will not let you on its back, this seems to me the same thing leading an animal and mounting it are two totally different things.

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That might very well be. It still seems that the dragons on Dragonstone live out in the open - that's the vibe I get from Aerea spending times with the dragons there 

No we are toldthat they have there lair in the caves of the Dragonmont behind Dragonstone which you can reach from inside the castle only the three wild dragons at the beginning of the dance live on they other side of the dragonmont.

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

also wondering how Balerion got from KL - after Maegor's death - to Dragonstone. Or why or how the hell Quicksilver got from Dragonstone (where she was for Aenys' funeral) to KL (where she was claimed by Aegon). Did anyone bother to tell the dragon to go there? Did anyone move her there? If so, why on earth would anyone do that?

And on second thought - why didn't the Faith Militant slay Dreamfyre after they seized KL after they had driven Aenys away?

Also, why bother moving dragons who hatch on Dragonstone to the Dragonpit? Just a safety precaution so they can't be claimed and stolen?

These baffle me as much as they do you.

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50 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Well i have to disagree you for example can lead a semi-wild horse by the rains just fine but it will not let you on its back, this seems to me the same thing leading an animal and mounting it are two totally different things.

But dragons are not horses. They a freakishly large and extreme dangerous predators. I can see Daemon leading Vhagar around - considering that she and Caraxes were as close as Laena and Daemon were - but the average, run-of-the-mill stable boy or dragonkeeper? And a different dragonrider who was never close to Vhagar, say? Do we imagine Jaehaerys and Vermithor being able to push her around while riderless, getting her from Dragonstone to KL?

50 minutes ago, direpupy said:

No we are toldthat they have there lair in the caves of the Dragonmont behind Dragonstone which you can reach from inside the castle only the three wild dragons at the beginning of the dance live on they other side of the dragonmont.

Oh, I think terms like 'dragon ward/yard' and the like imply they are somewhere on the premises of Dragonstone but not necessarily in caves. Pits and the like implies caves, too, and there certainly are caves there, as well. The first confirmed wild dragons leave the premise during Rhaena's aegis on Dragonstone - which would imply that's the time when Sheepstealer hatched and got away.

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Do we imagine Jaehaerys and Vermithor being able to push her around while riderless, getting her from Dragonstone to KL?

Don't really have to imagine it, since it seems to be what happened. :pimp:

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We should have a thread on the dying of the Dragons, thought about starting one but wasn't sure if you guys just wanted that under dragon lore.

 

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So, listing dragonriders in Fire and Blood:

  1. Aegon/1)Balerion
  2. Visenya/2)Vhagar
  3. Rhaenys+/3)Meraxes+
  4. Aenys/4)Quicksilver
  5. Rhaena/5)Dreamfyre
  6. Maegor/1)Balerion
  7. Aegon+/4)Quicksilver+
  8. Jaehaerys/6)Vermithor
  9. Alysanne/7)Silverwing
  10. Aerea+/1)Balerion
  11. Aemon/8)Caraxes
  12. Baelon/2)Vhagar
  13. Alyssa/9)Meleys
  14. Rhaenys+/9)Meleys+
  15. Viserys/1)Balerion+
  16. Daemon+/8)Caraxes+
  17. Laenor/10)Seasmoke
  18. Rhaenyra/11)Syrax+
  19. Laena/2)Vhagar
  20. Aegon/12)Sunfyre+
  21. Helaena/5)Dreamfyre
  22. Aemond+/2)Vhagar+
  23. Daeron/13)Tessarion
  24. Jacaerys+/14)Vermax+
  25. Lucerys+/15)Arrax+
  26. Joffrey/16)Tyraxes+
  27. Hugh/6)Vermithor
  28. Ulf/7)Silverwing
  29. Addam+/10)Seasmoke+
  30. Nettles/17)Sheepstealer
  31. Aegon/18)Stormcloud+
  32. Baela/19)Moondancer+
  33. Rhaena/20)Morning

Any who does not belong? Any who are missing?

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5 hours ago, Ran said:

Don't really have to imagine it, since it seems to be what happened. :pimp:

Hihi. Well, I'm sure your mental image on that one is not that different from mine. I mean, seriously, the idea that children can control creatures the size of Vhagar, potential special magical blood but they are not consciously aware of or not, simply with a whip or nothing at all is very hard to swallow. And then having the whole 'you can't ride only one dragon at a time' but at the same time 'you control other dragons, too, as long you don't ride them' seems to completely destroy the whole purpose of the first thing.

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37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Hihi. Well, I'm sure your mental image on that one is not that different from mine. I mean, seriously, the idea that children can control creatures the size of Vhagar, potential special magical blood but they are not consciously aware of or not, simply with a whip or nothing at all is very hard to swallow. And then having the whole 'you can't ride only one dragon at a time' but at the same time 'you control other dragons, too, as long you don't ride them' seems to completely destroy the whole purpose of the first thing.

What is the point you are trying to bring across by focusing repeatedly on this incredibly insignificant gripe? That Martin has stuffed up somehow, or that there is some deeper mystery this hints at?

Because to me it is simply another bit of dragon behavior we need to just accept and move on.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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Just now, Free Northman Reborn said:

What is the point you are trying to bring across by focusing repeatedly on this incredibly insignificant gripe? That Martin has stuffed up somehow, or that there is some deeper mystery this hints at?

Because to me it is simply another bit of deagon behavior we need to just accept and move on.

I have difficulty to picture that, just as I've difficulty wrapping my heard around a lot of the dragon logistics things, and I have difficulty buying that as actually happening.

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Yet it did. Find a way to make it work in your headcanon or just let it go.

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