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Lord Varys

[spoiler] Dragonlore (dragons, dragonriders, dragon eggs, dragon skulls, you name it)

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2 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

I also doubt that she had sufficient control to fly him back to King's Landing, especially being on death's door as she was. I do think Balerion instinctively tried to save her. 

Flying from Dragonstone to King's Landing should take several hours. As she was getting worse, she may have been slightly less bad - though I suspect already fevered - the time she passed Dragonstone. Might have been her decision to pass Dragonstone and continue to Red Keep.

But getting emaciated like she was takes weeks. A brief fever of a few days would have left her dying and then dead, still plump. She must have been in trouble for some time, and had she been able to return Balerion sooner, the flight time Valyria to Red Keep would not have been enough to get her thin.

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19 hours ago, Jaak said:

Barth´s guess is that Aerea at least expected some trouble in Valyria, and would have directed Balerion elsewhere, had he obeyed her.

I'm not so sure how much I trust Barth on this.  Whilst he's generally right about Lore stuff, Aerea wanted to get away.  She wanted adventure, its entirely possible they flew to a few places before going to Valyria, she was gone quite a while.  

She was a damaged child who'd been through an awful lot in her life, who didn't enjoy life where she was, she'd wanted to go with Elissa.  the dragons were maybe the only other thing she some joy in on Dragonstone. I could easily see her wanting to go to Valyria in her childish bravado particularly if she and Balerion had been flying around for a bit here and there, some of those sightings maybe have had some slight truth to them and then realising what a mistake it was.

I could see it being more of a mutual decision to a degree.  Also Balerion didn't exactly fly away when he was riderless in the years before, if he'd wanted to go anywhere he could have.  Having a rider played some part in his departing, he could have rejected her but he didn't.

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As I laid out, there is a quote by Gyldayn - not sourced, but still something he thinks the girl felt - that implies Aerea wanted to fly far, far away.

If this is to be taken seriously, then Aerea may have not any goal but getting far, far away - explore the world, get to some other place, have adventures. She may have not directed Balerion to fly anywhere aside from not returning to Dragonstone and not flying to KL or any other place in Westeros.

I don't think she wanted to fly to Valyria, but once she realized that this was where Balerion wanted to go - perhaps only around the time they had flown across Essos and reached the lands east of Volantis - she would have jumped on the chance to explore this place.

If they were not spending much time anywhere else before getting to Valyria - which the lack of reports implies - then they would have spent considerable time at Valyria where, I assume, Aerea actually spent some time with people or creatures or demons, etc. living there, before getting infected with those things.

The fact that Aerea actually ended up on Balerion's back and got him to fly to KL also implies that she had a level of control over him. Balerion's injuries also make it possible that he had to fight through powerful creatures/monsters/demons to get to Aerea, or that they were attacked by some such while they were fleeing. But this is all conjecture.

Overall, the assumption that Aerea was too weak to control Balerion while Aemond the ten-year-old and Laena the twelve-year-old could actually bind Vhagar to their will doesn't strike me as very likely. Barth's speculations are based on the idea that the girl wanted to fly to KL or a place in Westeros. He doesn't really investigate her own motives all that well.

If one puts oneself in Aerea's shoes for a moment - mounting the Black Dread must have been a great emotional high for her. It was her way to get out of prison. She no longer needed Elissa Farman or Alysanne to have adventures - and she knew that, in the end, both had rejected her. Alysanne replaced her with her own children, and Elissa abandoned her.

In the end, it makes more sense to me that it was Aerea that directed Balerion back to KL rather than Dragonstone or any other place. That's more convincing than the idea that Balerion on his own decided he wanted to get back to KL and Aerea was just lucky to be around when the dragon decided to leave Valyria. That's coincidence upon coincidence upon coincidence.

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1 hour ago, Jaak said:

Flying from Dragonstone to King's Landing should take several hours. As she was getting worse, she may have been slightly less bad - though I suspect already fevered - the time she passed Dragonstone. Might have been her decision to pass Dragonstone and continue to Red Keep.

But getting emaciated like she was takes weeks. A brief fever of a few days would have left her dying and then dead, still plump. She must have been in trouble for some time, and had she been able to return Balerion sooner, the flight time Valyria to Red Keep would not have been enough to get her thin.

The issue is that Balerion returned to King's Landing largely of his own accord. 

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1 hour ago, naseridrl said:

I'm not so sure how much I trust Barth on this.  Whilst he's generally right about Lore stuff, Aerea wanted to get away.  She wanted adventure, its entirely possible they flew to a few places before going to Valyria, she was gone quite a while.  

I could easily see her wanting to go to Valyria in her childish bravado particularly if she and Balerion had been flying around for a bit here and there, some of those sightings maybe have had some slight truth to them and then realising what a mistake it was.

I could see it being more of a mutual decision to a degree.  Also Balerion didn't exactly fly away when he was riderless in the years before, if he'd wanted to go anywhere he could have. 

Barth writes that he had not and intended not to tell Jaehaerys much of what he wrote down he had seen - how much did Jaehaerys trust Barth on this?

Did the general suggestion, that a newly mounted dragon might endanger a Targaryen child not only by direct attack, but by flying out of rider´s control and into a danger, get credited by Jaehaerys? And then passed to Viserys and Alicent, who for that reason would have forbidden Aemond to try Vhagar?

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As I laid out, there is a quote by Gyldayn - not sourced, but still something he thinks the girl felt - that implies Aerea wanted to fly far, far away.

If this is to be taken seriously, then Aerea may have not any goal but getting far, far away - explore the world, get to some other place, have adventures. She may have not directed Balerion to fly anywhere aside from not returning to Dragonstone and not flying to KL or any other place in Westeros.

I don't think she wanted to fly to Valyria, but once she realized that this was where Balerion wanted to go - perhaps only around the time they had flown across Essos and reached the lands east of Volantis - she would have jumped on the chance to explore this place.

If they were not spending much time anywhere else before getting to Valyria - which the lack of reports implies - then they would have spent considerable time at Valyria where, I assume, Aerea actually spent some time with people or creatures or demons, etc. living there, before getting infected with those things.

The fact that Aerea actually ended up on Balerion's back and got him to fly to KL also implies that she had a level of control over him. Balerion's injuries also make it possible that he had to fight through powerful creatures/monsters/demons to get to Aerea, or that they were attacked by some such while they were fleeing. But this is all conjecture.

Overall, the assumption that Aerea was too weak to control Balerion while Aemond the ten-year-old and Laena the twelve-year-old could actually bind Vhagar to their will doesn't strike me as very likely. Barth's speculations are based on the idea that the girl wanted to fly to KL or a place in Westeros. He doesn't really investigate her own motives all that well.

If one puts oneself in Aerea's shoes for a moment - mounting the Black Dread must have been a great emotional high for her. It was her way to get out of prison. She no longer needed Elissa Farman or Alysanne to have adventures - and she knew that, in the end, both had rejected her. Alysanne replaced her with her own children, and Elissa abandoned her.

In the end, it makes more sense to me that it was Aerea that directed Balerion back to KL rather than Dragonstone or any other place. That's more convincing than the idea that Balerion on his own decided he wanted to get back to KL and Aerea was just lucky to be around when the dragon decided to leave Valyria. That's coincidence upon coincidence upon coincidence.

Thinking about it now Im beginning to think that the Doom did not kill off the dragons just the dragonriders in Valyria. Valyria is now wild. Could it be no one is allowed to leave Valyria alive  once you enter?  

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2 hours ago, lysmonger said:

Thinking about it now Im beginning to think that the Doom did not kill off the dragons just the dragonriders in Valyria. Valyria is now wild. Could it be no one is allowed to leave Valyria alive  once you enter?  

Dragonstone has wild dragons, too, but no firewyrms. And even Cannibal is not actively hunting people who do not molest him.

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Me thinks a lot of Valyrians survived the doom. However they decided to keep Valyria wild. The Freehold was destroyed from its own doing they claim. Let it be the land of Sorcerers and Magnificent Magical things, not an empire..

2 hours ago, Jaak said:

Dragonstone has wild dragons, too, but no firewyrms. And even Cannibal is not actively hunting people who do not molest him.

 

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I guess we now know that a strong will is required for a stronger dragon. I find it weird though i mean even Baelon touched Balerion seems he became so tame but a headstrong Area could not control him while Aemond took Vhagar at an even younger age. I guess the dragon chooses the rider as much as the rider chooses the dragon. 

Still so awesome that the black dread was even feared by the Targ family for someone to claim.

 

I will forever wonder why he brought her to KL instead of Dragonstone though.

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Is it made clear where Rhaena was when Morning hatched?

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2 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Is it made clear where Rhaena was when Morning hatched?

In the Vale. When she leaves she has only dragon eggs.

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13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In the Vale. When she leaves she has only dragon eggs.

Interesting!

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So Elissa Farman stole 3 dragon eggs, fled to Braavos by way of Driftmark and Pentos. Centuries later a magister of Pentos gifts 3 dragon eggs to Dany.

The marketing of the book implies it answers the question of the origin of Dany's eggs.

Surely it's not that simple?

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My main thoughts on dragons and dragonriders after completing F+B are that location seems to play a bigger role in the birth of both dragons and those with the blood to ride them than I initially thought.

I think that instead of the gods flipping a coin at birth to check for sanity or madness there are several other variables and that the genius loci of wherever they are when emerge into the world is one of those factors. If some dominant factor of the newborn soul clashes with the spiritual energy of their birthplace then bad things happen and you end up with a deformed dragonling at war with its own nature and that of its "rider"- such an interesting parallel with the volatile Targ blood that led to as was spilled during the Dance.

 

Also... "Morning"- poor rosy-fingered false Dawn... how ironic is that!?

 

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I cannot comprehend why is Vermithor several times described as oldest and largest dragon after Vhagar's death. Did the storming of Dragonpit (and thus Dreamfyre's death) happen before the duel above Harenhal? Dreamfyre was a hatchling 3 years before Vermithor was yet an egg, so it should be described as older, if not necessarily larger than Vermithor.

 

Also, whatever happened to all those hatchlings born on Dragonstone, mentioned a few times in F&B? Like those rejected by Maegor as unworthy?

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2 minutes ago, Rhaemond_Targaryen said:

I cannot comprehend why is Vermithor several times described as oldest and largest dragon after Vhagar's death. Did the storming of Dragonpit (and thus Dreamfyre's death) happen before the duel above Harenhal? Dreamfyre was a hatchling 3 years before Vermithor was yet an egg, so it should be described as older, if not necessarily larger than Vermithor.

 

Also, whatever happened to all those hatchlings born on Dragonstone, mentioned a few times in F&B? Like those rejected by Maegor as unworthy?

It seems that no other hatchlings lives long enough to be claimed. Sarcasm aside, the lack of new dragons worry me, did they all die early or what?

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A few things that pop out in F+B regarding dragons:

The question of how the Targs control them. It is written elsewhere that they used special whips and other instruments for this, but I saw no mention of this and from I saw it comes down to willpower expressed through some kind of magical bond.

I find it interesting that placing eggs in the nursery does not appear to be a Valyrian tradition, but a Targ "innovation".

Dragons' "homing instinct" strikes me as similar to the way ravens are used to carry messages. I am even more convinced that dragons are an adaptation of that psychopompic soul-guide/messenger role from the Old Gods' soul cycle in the Firenet.

 

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