Jump to content
Lord Varys

[spoiler] Dragonlore (dragons, dragonriders, dragon eggs, dragon skulls, you name it)

Recommended Posts

Alright, I've been going over my notes on various topics.  Now we turn to dragon lineages (narrow focus, not the more "magic" questions about Dragon behavior).

Unfortunately, we learned very little new information in Fire & Blood:

  • Morning is the only new coloration we learn:  pale pink, with black crest and horns. 
  • It still doesn't directly state what color Vhagar was.
  • Morning is also technically the first dragon with a confirmed parent: her egg was laid by Syrax
  • For some reason, the "half a dozen hatchlings" mentioned in Sons of the Dragon was changed to "a dozen hatchlings" in Fire & Blood version.  Largely irrelevant, as sometimes hatchlings die, or got eaten by the Cannibal, so a count of "unnamed hatchlings" doesn't amount to much.  
  • Dragons started being born deformed and twisted close to and after the Dance.  Not only that Rhaena's first hatchling died within hours, but the deformed monster that hatched for Alyn Velaryon's daughter Laena.  Wingless/armless, killed after it hatched and attacked her.  I fear we may see more of this in Volume 2.  The poisoning of the Maesters?  Who knows.  But beyond our current scope....
  • Which of Jaehaerys's children were dragon-riders - and which dragons knew prior riders:  His eldest son Aemon claimed Caraxes, his second son Baelon claimed Vhagar (unridden since Visenya's death), and Baelon's sister-wife Alyssa had Meleys.  Meleys was the fastest dragon in her youth.  
  • It's remarked that the "female" dragons were regularly laying eggs.
  • It's definitively stated that no one ever saw Sheepstealer again.  Earlier line in World book that "their fate wasn't known until years later" simply refers to that guards stumbled on her in the Mountains of the Moon at one point, explaining how they know the Burned Men worshiped her - but stating neither of them were ever seen after that.
  • And of course, the biggest information:  all but stated that Daenerys's three dragon eggs are not from Asshai, but actually stolen from Dragonstone, and thus part of the Targaryen dragon lineage. 

Obviously, I'm dealing with Watsonian speculation, and we must remain cognizant of the Doylist "Maybe Martin himself doesn't know or didn't think this out".  I.e. we can speculate what color Vhagar SHOULD be, but Elio has said "Martin just plain didn't think of it yet" for the World book.

"Dragon generations" are an inherently problematic question, given that their eggs can lay dormant for many years.  It DOES seem implied that the Targaryens at this time were regularly hatching them not long after they were laid (into hatchlings who didn't always survive)

By the Dance of the Dragons, at least, I FUNCTIONALLY group them into size classes - which usually correlate with age.  Helps to remember it by number of each (1 Super-Large, 8 Large, 8 Medium to Light, and 3 hatchlings; adds up to 20 dragons):

  • Super-Large:  Vhagar
  • Large:  Vermithor, Silverwing, Caraxes, Meleys, Syrax, Dreamfyre, Sheepstealer, the Cannibal
  • Medium to Light:  Sunfyre, Tessarion, Seasmoke, Vermax, Arrax, Tyraxes, Grey Ghost, Moondancer
  • Hatchlings: Stormcloud, Morghul, Shrykos

That's just how I remember it / memorized it from reading TPATQ.  Also it's kind of broad - sort of like dogs or horses, there's variation, sometimes you just get an unusually small older one or unusually fast-growing young one.  Dreamfyre is one of the second generation dragons - the first one we heard about after Quicksilver, Fire & Blood confirms, but she was notoriously "slender" and delicate-looking.  Sometimes you just get a slender greyhound compared to a mastiff.  And "Medium to Light" ranges from Sunfyre to Moondancer - Sunfyre was not considered "huge"  but turned out to be a very formidable fighter, while on the other end of the spectrum, Moondancer was barely big enough to carry a young girl.

Heirs of the Dragon section just mentions the younger generation's dragons as they pop up, but while it gives dates for Vermax-Arrax-Tyraxes it doesn't for the greens' dragons.  

(shrug)

It does seem that Syrax was near the end of that older generation of "huge" dragons by the Dance.  I mean, she's called "huge" but it was Rhaenyra who named her, she had no prior rider, and she was a couple of decades younger than Caraxes or Meleys.  What's the break between Syrax - youngest of the "large" and Sunfyre, largest of the "mediums"?  Whatever.

Dragon reproduction as you all know allows them to switch back and forth from male to female - in real life animals that do engage in "Sequential Hermaphroditism", they only actually change sex ONCE, not back again, btw.  

Quote

(Mushroom also claims that Vermax left a clutch of dragon’s eggs at Winterfell, which is equally absurd. Whilst it is true that determining the sex of a living dragon is a nigh on impossible task, no other source mentions Vermax producing so much as a single egg, so it must be assumed that he was male. Septon Barth’s speculation that the dragons change sex at need, being “as mutable as flame,” is too ludicrous to consider.)

WE know they can switch, but what's interesting is that there are dragons THEY consider "female" because they saw them laying eggs.  The wrinkle added to this by Fire & Blood is that the ones they thought were female actually laid eggs pretty regularly, it says.  

It's not "oh we saw Tessarion laying an egg ONCE so we realized she was female".  

Those who did lay eggs laid them frequently, while the allegedly "male" ones either didn't, or did it rarely enough and in seclusion that they didn't know.

The regular egg-layers were called "Queens", and included:

  • Vhagar - considered female, had eggs with Balerion ("Balerion, Vhagar, and their get")
  • Dreamfyre - laid multiple clutches of eggs, some of which hatched
  • Meleys - the Red Queen
  • Tessarion - the Blue Queen
  • Silverwing - ….considered female, not called a "Queen", but a mated pair with Vermithor.  

Quicksilver and Caraxes are referred to inconsistently:  Quicksilver is usually called female, Caraxes usually male, and this is a question for the "Errata" section....

So this is just idle speculation.   The problem of course is that the Targaryens may have had other eggs that the original four besides Balerion left behind on Dragonstone - siblings of Vhagar and Meraxes.

Another fear is that they never knew, in universe, who laid which eggs....though they considered some dragons female because they laid eggs, so clearly they must have SEEN them lay eggs.  Why call Tessarion an egg-layer if they never saw her lay them?  And Dreamfyre laid some.  

And who the heck sired Dreamfyre's eggs?  She laid two clutches before Rhaena even started flying her, and another clutch...on Fair Isle?  With no other dragons around?  Years after Quicksilver died? (If Quicksilver even did sire them....in which case, why do they still consider it female?)

At any rate, I'm reasonably sure that Vermax, Arrax, and Tyraxes were hatched from eggs laid by Syrax, and that they were sired by Caraxes…..given the way that Heirs of the Dragon phrases it, that Syrax, Caraxes, and Vhagar were spending a lot of time together:

 

Quote

Whilst Princess Rhaenyra misliked her stepmother, Queen Alicent, she became fond and more than fond of her good-sister Lady Laena. With Driftmark and Dragonstone so close, Daemon and Laena oft visited with the princess, and her with them. Many a time they flew together on their dragons, and the princess’s she-dragon Syrax produced several clutches of eggs.

It seems clear from this that Caraxes at least sired some eggs with Syrax - though not 100% confirmed they became Vermax etc.

The only other bit of info is that when the Dragonpit was finished in 56 AC, Balerion was kept there along with "three younger dragons" - and it's also stated that Vermithor and Silverwing were kept separate at the Red Keep, and Dreamfyre was with Rhaena at Harrenhal.  These three younger ones were probably Vhagar, Caraxes, and Meleys - the three dragons claimed by Jaehaerys's children.  It isn't impossible that one of them was Syrax, but she only starts being mentioned decades later when Rhaenyra claimed her, so I doubt it.  Not one of the Medium to Lights.  Plus the Cannibal and Sheepstealer were never kept at the Dragonpit…..and how the heck did some dragons go "wild" when unclaimed?  Wouldn't they keep them in the Dragonpit?  Or is it that they can't really keep them there if they don't want to stay? (shrug)

At any rate, there were 21 named dragons after the three Conquest-era ones.  

20 during the Dance, minus Vhagar, plus Morning and Quicksilver.

That's not an impossible number to work with, really.  

"Generation 3" might be difficult, but the immediate second-Generation dragons...we might have more luck...

So we're moving ahead with a god-damned big assumption that:

  • 1 - Eggs hatched fairly quickly or not at all.  Thus the pre-Conquest four dragons didn't leave behind other eggs which later hatched, and third-generation dragons usually hatched soon after they were laid.
  • 2 - Vhagar stopped laying eggs as she got older.  Otherwise, Shrykos could be one of Vhagar's for all we know.

….(sigh) it's easier to start with the second generation, at least, though using the assumption that none of them are from those original four, but all sired by Balerion (by either Vhagar or Meraxes):

Dreamfyre, Meleys, Silverwing we're considering "egg layers".  Assuming Quicksilver didn't leave any....I think...ah, crud.....

I think Quicksilver was probably laid by Meraxes, as they were both silver, and kind of makes sense that her son would have her dragon's progeny.  I don't know if coloration indicates anything definitively, as with dogs or horses.  

They had "a dozen" hatchlings near the end of Aegon I's reign, but only half that many by 56 AC?

Our only other, frankly BAD guess is Dragon Coloration as indicating anything.  Which it might not.

It's no accident that Drogon looks like Balerion:  he's not just a reincarnation or something, he may literally be Balerion's SON....or perhaps, grandson.  

…..interesting that just as Meraxes was silver/white with gold highlights, Viserions is white-cream with gold highlights....

My functional guess is actually that it Vhagar was GREEN, with bronze highlights, so that Daenerys's trio are an exact mirror of the original set (that's Rhaegal's coloration).  

 

Edited by The Dragon Demands

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another coloration issue is that...in heraldry terms, "argent" can mean anything from silver to white, grey gets mixed in there, and "or" can mean a range of colors from "gold" to yellow to orange.  Syrax was "yellow", but Sunfyre was outright "gold", like the metal.  

Meanwhile, some dragons had eye coloration - does that match their secondary color?  Meraxes had gold eyes....does that mean she had gold horns and crest?  The Cannibal was coal black, but with "baleful green eyes" - so were his horns green too or not?  Unclear.

The only colors we never found out fall into three clusters:  Vhagar, "the three sons of Rhaenyra" (Vermax-Arrax-Tyraxes) and "hatchlings during the Dance" (Stormcloud, Morghul, Shrykos).

So, playing around with the frankly fanfic assumption that coloration is an indication of heredity, AND that size class roughly indicates generation, AND that Vhagar didn't lay more eggs later in life, just playing around with this, we have:

Generation 1:

  • Balerion - Black, with red highlights
  • Meraxes - Silver, with "gold eyes" (Gold highlights?)
  • Vhagar - Unknown 

Generation 2:

  • Vermithor - Bronze, with Tan
  • Silverwing - described as yes, "silvery" in F&B.  Confirmed "Female", probable egg-layer.
  • Dreamfyre - light blue, with silver.  Egg-layer.
  • Quicksilver - "silvery"
  • Caraxes - blood red
  • Meleys - scarlet red, with copper highlights.  Egg-layer.
  • Syrax - yellow
  • The Cannibal - coal black, with baleful green eyes
  • Sheepstealer - an ugly "mud brown"

Generation 3:

  • Sunfyre - shining gold, with pale pink wing membranes
  • Tessarion - dark cobalt blue, with copper highlights.  Egg-layer.
  • Seasmoke - pale silver-grey
  • Vermax, Arrax, Tyraxes - unknown
  • Grey Ghost - pale grey-white
  • Moondancer - pale green, with pearl highlights
  • Morning - technically Gen-3, given that she was confirmed laid by Syrax.  Pale pink, with black highlights.

Generation 4:

  • Stormcloud
  • Morghul
  • Shrykos

I think it probable that Morghul and Shrykos were laid by Tessarion, hence "the Blue Queen".  Stormcloud may have been laid by Syrax for all we know.  Colorations all unknown.  

So for the Gen-2's....let's assume color transmits, and that Vhagar was green/bronze.  In that scenario:
 

  • Vermithor gets bronze from mother Vhagar
  • Silverwing, Quicksilver, and Dreamfyre all got their silver coloration from Meraxes
  • Caraxes and Meleys got their red coloration from Balerion's secondary color, Meleys more probably a Meraxes-Balerion pairing (both "Mer-" names), unclear.  

….ah, screw it, this falls apart.  Too many assumptions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:
  • And of course, the biggest information:  all but stated that Daenerys's three dragon eggs are not from Asshai, but actually stolen from Dragonstone, and thus part of the Targaryen dragon lineage. 

 

Not necessarily. The Sea Lord might have been right that he did not have the eggs, and they arrived safely in Asshai with the ship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/25/2018 at 1:07 AM, Jaak said:

8) Jaehaerys/6)Vermithor

9) Alysanne/7)Silverwing

Page 57: Rhaena put eggs into cradle for both.

Page 74: In 42, Jaehaerys and Alysanne were 7 and 5 (Aenys died before their birthdays) and Vermithor and Silverwing had hatched and lit Aenys´ pyre.

Page 95: In 44, Jaehaerys and Alysanne, at most 10 and 8, fled with dragons. It is NOT specified how, or if they then flew.

Page 103: In 48, Jaehaerys and Alysanne are expressly stated to be 14 and 12, and Jaehaerys "rode" dragon, Alysanne is said to "command".

Page 109: Jaehaerys, Rhaena and Alysanne descended on Red Keep on their dragons. Meaning that Alysanne specifically rode.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/25/2018 at 1:07 AM, Jaak said:

10) Aerea+/1)Balerion

Observe:

Rhaena had put dragon eggs in cradles of her siblings Jaehaerys and Alysanne - with result that at ages 7 and 5, their dragons had hatched and could be commanded to fire.

For some reason, she gave no eggs to her own children! At 11, they were still dragonless.

In page 203, Aerea, age 8 in 51...52, started to "count the days until she could mount one". Count to what?

Rhaena had flown at 12, but she had had own dragon since 9. Alysanne had flown by 12, but she had had own dragon by 5!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@The Dragon Demands

I also tried to make a genealogical tree of the dragons based on color. My thesis was:

  • Balerion (male, black)+ Meraxes (female, silver) = Quicksilver (silver)
  • Balerion (male, black) + Vhagar (female, reddish?) = Sheepstealer (brownish) , Caraxes (red), Meleys (red)
  • Balerion (male, black)+ Quicksilver (female, silver) = Dreamfyre (pale blue), Silverwing (silver)
  • Vhagar (male, reddish?) + Quicksilver (female, silver) = Vermithor (bronze)

I think it somehow fits, timewise and colorwise, and I like that Aenys received an egg from his parent's dragons, and his children received all eggs from his dragon.

Edited by The hairy bear

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/25/2018 at 1:07 AM, Jaak said:

11) Aemon/8)Caraxes

12)Baelon/2)Vhagar

13)Alyssa/9)Meleys

Page 240 - year 55. A dragon egg is put in Aemon´s cradle. No mention of that for Daenerys - she was dragonless when she got shivers at six. Nor was it mentioned for other children...

page 297, in 72, Aemon is a husband, a knight and 17 and still dragonless when he tames Caraxes. No mention of Caraxes having hatched from the egg in his cradle. Likely it did not hatch.

Same page 297 - in 73, Baelon, age 16, tamed Vhagar.

Page 303 - in 75, age 15, Alyssa wanted to tame Balerion, but was persuaded to take Meleys instead.

Note: since Alysanne had been a dragon owner (though not rider) by age 5, had her children had eggs hatch, by 72 Vaegon and Daella might have had dragons as well. Yes, Daella was nervous of old dragons. But her own hatchling she´d raised since herself a toddler might have been a different matter.

Edited by Jaak

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Jaak said:

Not necessarily. The Sea Lord might have been right that he did not have the eggs, and they arrived safely in Asshai with the ship.

….then where did she get the money for her ship?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It does look as if any of Jaehaerys I's children had dragon eggs from which living dragons hatched. Aemon, Baelon, and Alyssa chose their dragons in the Dragonpit, they did not have preliminary bonds with dragons from their eggs. Gyldayn even tells us that such inevitably lead to the Targaryen claiming the dragon, so neither Aemon nor Alyssa would have chosen a dragon had they already one from an egg. And Baelon clearly didn't have a hatchling from an egg.

This means that none of Jaehaerys' children after Aemon got dragon eggs in their cradles.

Back during Rhaena's rule of Dragonstone there were dozens of unnamed hatchlings and drakes and grown dragons on Dragonstone, with only Balerion, Vhagar, and Dreamfyre having names yet.

Edited by Lord Varys

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It does look as if any of Jaehaerys I's children had dragon eggs from which living dragons hatched. Aemon, Baelon, and Alyssa chose their dragons in the Dragonpit, they did not have preliminary bonds with dragons from their eggs. Gyldayn even tells us that such inevitably lead to the Targaryen claiming the rider, so neither Aemon nor Alyssa would have chosen a dragon had they already one from an egg. And Baelon clearly didn't have a hatchling from an egg.

This means that none of Jaehaerys' children after Aemon got dragon eggs in their cradles.

Back during Rhaena's rule of Dragonstone there were dozens of unnamed hatchlings and drakes and grown dragons on Dragonstone, with only Balerion, Vhagar, and Dreamfyre having names yet.

seems like perhaps carrying around the egg ends up killing the embryo instead leaving it in the dragon pit

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×