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Varysblackfyre321

Does Nettles prove the Valaryians weren’t exceptional?

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It’s pretty strongly implied the woman did not have Valaryian ancestry yet was able to tame a dragon. 

Also Jaeryhs expresses legitimate worry that the eggs Elissa Farman stole; he legitimately seemed to think should the eggs hatch the person who held them could actually control the dragons. 

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25 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Perhaps, but we cannot know for sure since we do not know Nettles parentage.

Of course, it’s erroneous to definitively say yes or no-after all the woman was the daughter of a prostitute, it’s not impossible her father had some Valaryian blood and she merely took only after her mothe. But, it’s shown repeatedly that confirmed bastards of Targyens and desedents of bastards by Targyens could not tame sheephearder. This to me implies, whatever her lineage it played little or no affect in actually taming the beast. Though I do suspect Rhaenys was right in her assessment of the girl having no Valaryian blood. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It’s pretty strongly implied the woman did not have Valaryian ancestry yet was able to tame a dragon. 

Also Jaeryhs expresses legitimate worry that the eggs Elissa Farman stole; he legitimately seemed to think should the eggs hatch the person who held them could actually control the dragons. 

I had the same thoughts but it seems increasingly like there is more to being Valyrian and Targaryen than being a dragon rider. I would like it to be the case because it would be a case of perseverance, resourcefulness and guts paying off. 

Martin likes to keep these things vague so we'll never know. 

Maybe both are true. It is possible to tame a dragon without dragon blood (and some taming is required even with it) but it is an outlier with much lower chance of success. 

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8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

FaB very strongly implies Daemon and Nettles didn't have an affair but were father and daughter. 

It is a way of looking at it but how would Daemon know? For one he wasn't particularly discerning in his youth who he slept with and Nettle's mother certainly wasn't either. 

Unless we take it as proof that because she rode Sheepstealer, she was a dragonseed, which for the purposes of this discussion is a circular argument. It could work as an in story argument though, that this convinced Daemon that she was his daughter or at least a relative. 

Maybe she impressed him with her determination and decided to take her under his wing, so to speak. 

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Just now, The Sleeper said:

It is a way of looking at it but how would Daemon know? For one he wasn't particularly discerning in his youth who he slept with and Nettle's mother certainly wasn't either. 

Unless we take it as proof that because she rode Sheepstealer, she was a dragonseed, which for the purposes of this discussion is a circular argument. It could work as an in story argument though, that this convinced Daemon that she was his daughter or at least a relative. 

Maybe she impressed him with her determination and decided to take her under his wing, so to speak. 

Gyldayn and his sources don't think about the father/daughter idea. But the reports we have from Maidenpool don't really confirm the affair story - and if there was an affair there would have been no good reason for a separation. If anyone had found his true love finally - or at least some aging guy a young girl who really gets to him emotionally - then he would leave with her rather than effectively killing himself. Daemon sends Nettles away to keep her safe and he faces Aemond to get a good exit - because he is done with both Rhaenyra and Mysaria now.

Maester Norren even spells it our without actually putting it forth as a theory. He says Daemon 'doted upon the brown girl as a man might dote upon his daughter'.

That is the answer. And the fact that they had adjacent bedchambers rather than sharing one is a dead giveaway, too. If there was a romance going on one would expect them to share a chamber or one or the other actually entering the other's bedchamber - like there is talk about how Daemon visited Mysaria in the Red Keep.

According to Mushroom, Nettles was born to a dockside whore and she is a bastard of uncertain birth - and her age fits with the time Daemon made his Stepstones campaign with Corlys Velaryon. It all fits. The girl grew up in Hull and Spicetown.

How Daemon found out who she was is unclear - the dragon would have helped, of course, but also her telling him who her mother was and what her mother told her. Nettles would have never tried to mount a dragon had she not known she could do it, one assumes.

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31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Gyldayn and his sources don't think about the father/daughter idea. But the reports we have from Maidenpool don't really confirm the affair story - and if there was an affair there would have been no good reason for a separation. If anyone had found his true love finally - or at least some aging guy a young girl who really gets to him emotionally - then he would leave with her rather than effectively killing himself. Daemon sends Nettles away to keep her safe and he faces Aemond to get a good exit - because he is done with both Rhaenyra and Mysaria now.

Maester Norren even spells it our without actually putting it forth as a theory. He says Daemon 'doted upon the brown girl as a man might dote upon his daughter'.

That is the answer. And the fact that they had adjacent bedchambers rather than sharing one is a dead giveaway, too. If there was a romance going on one would expect them to share a chamber or one or the other actually entering the other's bedchamber - like there is talk about how Daemon visited Mysaria in the Red Keep.

According to Mushroom, Nettles was born to a dockside whore and she is a bastard of uncertain birth - and her age fits with the time Daemon made his Stepstones campaign with Corlys Velaryon. It all fits. The girl grew up in Hull and Spicetown.

How Daemon found out who she was is unclear - the dragon would have helped, of course, but also her telling him who her mother was and what her mother told her. Nettles would have never tried to mount a dragon had she not known she could do it, one assumes.

But wouldn’t a favored bastard be less controversial than a beloved mistress? But if she was that certainly gives an alternative way to have gotten the sheep-her dad  probably would have given her coin for it . But still a man like Daemon, wasn’t especially faithful, or stupid, it’s unlikely he would have cared about Nettles’ mother claim of him being the father, if in fact she brought it up to him-after all the girl doesn’t even  look like him and he’s probably sired a dozen bastards over the years. And if her mother felt inclined to tell Nettles she was Daemon’s bastard, I don’t see why she wouldn’t brag about it-Dragon-seeds after all are treated better. For that matter I don’t see why she(a prostitute), would actually be confident enough to make such an assumption. Unless Daemon was literally the only man she slept with in moths there should be at least  in theory dozens of different alternatives. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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I don't know any fathers who share a bath with their teenage daughters. It's also worth considering that adjoining bedchambers could include an internal door connecting them together. Certainly, it's not ruled out.

What we see is not a father-daughter relationship, but a tender relationship, something Daemon never experienced before. His whole behavior and demeanor after the Blood and Cheese affair changes markedly because, I think, he had grown tired of his ambition. Meeting a young ingenue, unsophisticated and innocent, unambitious and desiring nothing more than to fly and be loved, changed his perspective on a lot of things. He looked back on his life and wondered if all the "sturm und drang" had been worth it.

There's absolutely nothing the girl could do to prove she was his daughter, in any case.

Edited by Ran

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27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Gyldayn and his sources don't think about the father/daughter idea. But the reports we have from Maidenpool don't really confirm the affair story - and if there was an affair there would have been no good reason for a separation. If anyone had found his true love finally - or at least some aging guy a young girl who really gets to him emotionally - then he would leave with her rather than effectively killing himself. Daemon sends Nettles away to keep her safe and he faces Aemond to get a good exit - because he is done with both Rhaenyra and Mysaria now.

Disregarding the lover probability does not prove that she was his daughter. 

 

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Maester Norren even spells it our without actually putting it forth as a theory. He says Daemon 'doted upon the brown girl as a man might dote upon his daughter'. 

Paternal attitude does not equate actual paternity. 

 

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is the answer. And the fact that they had adjacent bedchambers rather than sharing one is a dead giveaway, too. If there was a romance going on one would expect them to share a chamber or one or the other actually entering the other's bedchamber - like there is talk about how Daemon visited Mysaria in the Red Keep.

So, in short because maybe he wasn't having sex with her she must have been his daughter. 

 

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

According to Mushroom, Nettles was born to a dockside whore and she is a bastard of uncertain birth - and her age fits with the time Daemon made his Stepstones campaign with Corlys Velaryon. It all fits. The girl grew up in Hull and Spicetown.

So, we don't know who her father was and Daemon at the time was across the continent. 

 

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

How Daemon found out who she was is unclear - the dragon would have helped, of course, but also her telling him who her mother was and what her mother told her.

It is improbable that Nettle's own mother knew who her father was and nearly impossible for the father to know. I can buy that Daemon believed that Nettle was his daughter. But that he knew it for a fact, no. 

 

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nettles would have never tried to mount a dragon had she not known she could do it, one assumes.

People who knew for a fact that they had no blood of the dragon whatsoever tried, so that would be a very bad assumption

Edited by The Sleeper

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1 minute ago, Ran said:

 

I don't know any fathers who share a baths with their teenage daughters.

 

Maybe Craster lol? Yeah but seriously that would be pretty weird even for the Targyens. So far as we know sons or daughter banging their parents isn’t really a thing. 

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Dragonstone and its isles must be filled with people who have Targaryen blood. A "dragonseed" has kids, who have kids, who have kids...

Nettles took a chance that she might be able to ride a dragon, and the roll of the dice played out for her.

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8 minutes ago, Ran said:

I don't know any fathers who share a bath with their teenage daughters. It's also worth considering that adjoining bedchambers could include an internal door connecting them together. Certainly, it's not ruled out.

Dunk and Egg share a bathtub together, do they not? It can mean intimacy on romantic or sexual level but it doesn't have to be. This is a medieval world, and bathing is not sex, nor is bathing necessarily a thing the sexes can't do together. Think of Robert talking about how women basically bathe naked in the river and the bay in the hotness of summer.

There may have been an internal door between the bedchambers - but if so, Maester Norren would have known and should and would have told us, no?

8 minutes ago, Ran said:

There's absolutely nothing the girl could do to prove she was his daughter, in any case.

That is not necessarily true. If Daemon spent some time with her mother, and she was his exclusive bedwarmer for time, etc. it could be enough proof for him. Certainly nobody has any proof of parentage in this world, never mind that they are married or have sex. They could always have sex with other people unseen, and they could be the children.

I'm still pretty sure King Aenys was not Aegon's son but there will never be any proof for that, either. 

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Dunk and Egg share a bathtub together, do they not?

An adult man and a boy in his charge may well do so when there are limited bathing facilities.

Quote

Maester Norren would have known and should and would have told us, no?

Why would he? He already assumes they're lovers, just odd ones. "His bastard girl" tells us all you need to know. Indeed, Gyldayn cites all the evidence he provides from Norren as a reason to suspect that Mushroom had the right of it, despite Netty being described as being rather plain.

Edited by Ran

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1 minute ago, Ran said:

An adult man and a boy in his charge may well do so when there are limited bathing facilities.

Or a girl and her father if they want to, no? I certainly bathed with my parents.

1 minute ago, Ran said:

Why would he? He already assumes they're lovers, just odd ones. "His bastard girl" tells us all you need to know. Indeed, Gyldayn cites all the evidence he provides from Norren as a reason to suspect that Mushroom had the right of it, despite Netty being described as being rather plain.

Yes, but you are aware of the double meaning of 'his bastard girl' there, no? Both on Norren's level and on the meaning George might be wanting to send across here, no ;-).

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Just now, Lord Varys said:

Or a girl and her father if they want to, no? I certainly bathed with my parents.

At 17 years old? In a bath tub? 

Quote

 

Yes, but you are aware of the double meaning of 'his bastard girl' there, no? Both on Norren's level and on the meaning George might be wanting to send across here, no ;-).

You're barking up the  wrong tree.

Edited by Ran

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2 hours ago, Ran said:

At 17 years old? In a bath tub? 

I'm just saying there are better ways to characterize a romance/affair than the way George chose here, if he wanted to sent the message across that this was a romance/affair. There could have been actual reports of kisses and sex.

And, yes, bathing is not necessarily something you have to do with erotic or sexual subtexts. Just as today people who throw off their clothes to sauna don't have to have sex there.

But I'm curious - you told us you think all the dragonriders have a drop of dragonlord blood. Do you assume being the child of a dockside whore on Driftmark is enough to have inherited dragonlord blood?

(But then, if Queen Rhaena thinks Androw Farman could technically mount and ride a dragon, then perhaps everybody can, after all...)

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He's trying to convey that Daemon was in a tender romantic relationship for the first time in his life. He's had sex with lots of women, but it was all lust or ambition, so talking about having sex with her would just frame it as the same, torrid matter. Now he's acting differently, because his relationship with Nettle was on different terms than those. It was a romantic relationship, where he never had one before. Having him doing odd things like washing her hair or decorously having an adjoining chamber while  a shared one, it's all the same.

Quote

 you told us you think all the dragonriders have a drop of dragonlord blood. Do you assume being the child of a dockside whore on Driftmark is enough to have inherited dragonlord blood?

Being a blacksmith's bastard is enough. What makes a prostitute's daughter any less likely? The Targaryen men slept around widely, it seems.

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