Does Nettles prove the Valaryians weren’t exceptional?

[Jô Maltese]

3 minutes ago, Ran said:

Snip

Pheww! All good then  

[Lord Varys]

I think we'll have to look to the motivations and inner thoughts of Tyrion and Brown Ben when they claim dragons (which they likely will, or at least try). How is it going to affect Brown Ben - who is cautious by nature - that 'the true story' about his ancestry and his Targaryen blood is going to help him mount a dragon?

How likely is it that Tyrion will try to claim a dragon while he believes he is Tywin's son? Would he ever do such a thing under those circumstances, knowing and believing that only dragonlord blood can do the trick? Which would what he could have drawn from all the books on dragonlore he read about?

As for Gormon Massey:

The fact that Alarra Massey turned out to be Alyssa Velaryon's mother makes it not unlikely that there were some Velaryons who married into House Massey. And perhaps even Targaryens in the days before the Conquest. Gormon Massey could have had more Targaryen blood than Addam and Alyn of Hull if they were Corlys' sons.

And it is similar with Steffon Darklyn - there could have been a Targaryen-Darklyn marriage before the Conquest - or a Darklyn-Velaryon match before the Conquest or in the days since.

[White Ravens]

32 minutes ago, Ran said:

I believe she is, as many thousands may be on Dragonstone and its isles, the result of more than a century of Targaryen men "spreading the seed", so to speak. As I've said before, you just need the "right drop" of the blood, so it can show up in a person even half a dozen generations removed from a Targaryen.

But I don't believe she knew she was a Targaryen's immediate bastard, and I'm not sure she was even certain she was more distantly related. 

I'm not sure she could be described as approaching things in a foolhardy way. She had the most careful and methodical approach of anyone. If Sheepstealer refused her offerings, or attacked her, or flew away as soon as he finished eating, and never started warming to her, I doubt she'd have tried to get on his back. The approach she used, building familiarity, allowed her to test the limits. Doubtless the final step of mounting the dragon's back was risky in and of itself, but by the time Sheepstealer had let her get that close, she must have had more confidence.

I agree.  Her strategy was a huge part of her success.  The Targaryens had a practice of giving dragon eggs to their infant children in the hopes of forming a bond between child and unborn dragon.  There might even be some truth to that but more importantly they were setting up a scenario where a newly hatched dragon would likely come into contact with that child before any other humans.  With birds a phenomenon called animal imprinting occurs where a newly hatched chick bonds quite strongly with the first animal it contacts, which is almost always the mother bird, but they can also bond with other species of birds and even humans.  The same kind of mechanism most likely would occur with dragons as well.  The Targs would then have the child associated with that dragons spend as much time with it as they practically could so that by the time the dragon was large enough to ride it would be very comfortable with that human and maybe even affectionate towards them.  Nettles didn't have the good fortune to have Sheepstealer actually bonded with her from birth but she did seem to understand that she needed to gain his trust and allow enough time for him to grow comfortable with her before she made the attempt to climb on his back. 

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

I agree.  Her strategy was a huge part of her success.  The Targaryens had a practice of giving dragon eggs to their infant children in the hopes of forming a bond between child and unborn dragon.  There might even be some truth to that but more importantly they were setting up a scenario where a newly hatched dragon would likely come into contact with that child before any other humans.  With birds a phenomenon called animal imprinting occurs where a newly hatched chick bonds quite strongly with the first animal it contacts, which is almost always the mother bird, but they can also bond with other species of birds and even humans.  The same kind of mechanism most likely would occur with dragons as well.  The Targs would then have the child associated with that dragons spend as much time with it as they practically could so that by the time the dragon was large enough to ride it would be very comfortable with that human and maybe even affectionate towards them.  Nettles didn't have the good fortune to have Sheepstealer actually bonded with her from birth but she did seem to understand that she needed to gain his trust and allow enough time for him to grow comfortable with her before she made the attempt to climb on his back. 

Very few Targaryens actually mounted a dragon from an egg that was laid in their cradle. That's only confirmed for Rhaenyra's sons and Daemon's daughter Baela (although there are chances that Laenor and Daeron the Daring also got an egg in the cradle). A legend claims Vermithor and Silverwing also hatched from eggs Rhaena put in the cradles of their little siblings.

All the other Targaryens either were given hatchlings or chose a larger dragon as youths.

[White Ravens]

1 hour ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Nettles was a dragonseed now she is the fire witch of the Burned Men . 

I agree that the fire-witch that the Burned men sent their boys with offerings to brave the witch and her dragon was likely Nettles.  But Nettles was born in 113 AC so likely died of old age about 100 years or so before the events in the books.  We don't know how old Sheepstealer was when he bonded with Nettles so maybe just maybe he is still alive?

[The Sleeper]

8 hours ago, White Ravens said:

I agree that the fire-witch that the Burned men sent their boys with offerings to brave the witch and her dragon was likely Nettles.  But Nettles was born in 113 AC so likely died of old age about 100 years or so before the events in the books.  We don't know how old Sheepstealer was when he bonded with Nettles so maybe just maybe he is still alive?

Doubtful. The only dragon we have dying from old age is Balerion at 190 + and Sheepstealer was said to be hatched when Jaehaerys was young which would make him close to 250. We don't get a lifespan for dragons but the next oldest one, Vhagar was said to be old at 180. So I am guessing two centuries give or take is the average life expectancy. More than that there is zero set up in the main series for an extra dragon which would be kind of a big deal. I don't see how Martin can have him appear out of the blue particularly after has made such a big deal about the dragons being gone from the world. And magic returning with their birth. 

[The Sleeper]

Seriously though, if dragon blood is absolutely essential why was Jaehaerys worried about the Braavosi getting the eggs?

 

[Ran]

1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

 

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Seriously though, if dragon blood is absolutely essential why was Jaehaerys worried about the Braavosi getting the eggs?

 

Spoiler

Because there were once many dragonrider families in Valyria, and there are likely descendants of them still floating around, especially in places like Volantis and Lys. As well as, of more recent vintage, dragonseeds and the descendants of dragonseeds who could be offered rewards to come over and ride a dragon for the Sealord of Braavos.

 

[The Sleeper]

33 minutes ago, Ran said:

  Hide contents

Because there were once many dragonrider families in Valyria, and there are likely descendants of them still floating around, especially in places like Volantis and Lys. As well as, of more recent vintage, dragonseeds and the descendants of dragonseeds who could be offered rewards to come over and ride a dragon for the Sealord of Braavos.

 

That would work. Or it is possible. Or he doesn't know for sure. 

The Valyrians somehow became dragon lords in the first place. If it was done once then it could be done again.

Why no one else managed it? We know now that dragons hang around volcanoes, so circumstances in Valyria would dictate that the people there would have to live with them and eventually coming to take them. 

And suppose someone did figure out how to bond with dragons. What would the Valyrians do? Maybe wipe them 9f the face of the earth?

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 11/26/2018 at 1:34 AM, The Sleeper said:

That would work. Or it is possible. Or he doesn't know for sure. 

The Valyrians somehow became dragon lords in the first place. If it was done once then it could be done again.

Why no one else managed it? We know now that dragons hang around volcanoes, so circumstances in Valyria would dictate that the people there would have to live with them and eventually coming to take them. 

And suppose someone did figure out how to bond with dragons. What would the Valyrians do? Maybe wipe them 9f the face of the earth?

Possible. 

I mean the Valaryians have all the dragons. Whose to say if someone say of purely first man blood, his anchestry hasn’t a lick of Valaryian blood, was given a baby dragon that he wouldn’t be able to form the necessary connection to ride it when it’s grown. Though I would wager most would still presume the man had Valaryian blood. 

Truth be told, it appears it’s impossible to really say if the Targyens are simply pushing an old lie that was meant to dissuade people from trying to tame/steal their dragons, or telling a fact. 

[Dukhasinov]

On 11/26/2018 at 2:00 AM, The Sleeper said:

Doubtful. The only dragon we have dying from old age is Balerion at 190 + and Sheepstealer was said to be hatched when Jaehaerys was young which would make him close to 250. We don't get a lifespan for dragons but the next oldest one, Vhagar was said to be old at 180. So I am guessing two centuries give or take is the average life expectancy. More than that there is zero set up in the main series for an extra dragon which would be kind of a big deal. I don't see how Martin can have him appear out of the blue particularly after has made such a big deal about the dragons being gone from the world. And magic returning with their birth. 

There was no leadup to introducing "Aegon the Duck," either, but there he is. I kind of hope that Martin doesn`t introduce another dragon out of the blue. It would be kind of "Fantasy-cliche," but I wouldn`t rule it out entirely. And don`t put the cart before the horse. Te return of the dragons is a RESULT of the return of magic, not the cause. The White Walkers were stirring a year or so before the dragons were born.

[Dukhasinov]

On 11/23/2018 at 2:43 PM, Lord Varys said:

One can read it that way. But this tender thing also works for a father-daughter relationship - especially if he knew/believed she was his and he realized she had to lead a shitty, miserable life because he did not care before. I mean, it were even possible that her mother tried to acknowledge the child as his back then, and he rejected her.

 

You know, it`s possible for both sides of this debate to be correct. If Daemon Targaryen wanted to get some strange, the possibility of the girl being his unknown and unacknowledged daughter might not bother him. He didn`t have any qualms about banging his 14-year-old niece.

[The Sleeper]

1 hour ago, Dukhasinov said:

There was no leadup to introducing "Aegon the Duck," either, but there he is. I kind of hope that Martin doesn`t introduce another dragon out of the blue. It would be kind of "Fantasy-cliche," but I wouldn`t rule it out entirely. And don`t put the cart before the horse. Te return of the dragons is a RESULT of the return of magic, not the cause. The White Walkers were stirring a year or so before the dragons were born.

There kind of was. The vision of the mummer's dragon was one hint and the fact that it was made clear that baby Aegon's corpse was unrecognisable. More thah those there is Varys. He drops hints from time to time and it is basically his raison d' etre.

As for the magic thing, fire magic specifically gets a lot easier after the birth of the dragons. The glass candles started burning afterwards, the conjurer in Qarth had his powers magnified and the alchemists managed to make a lot of wildfire a lot more quickly. It could be that the dragons brought the magic or the magic brought the dragons, or both. The rise in fire magic coincided with the birth of the dragons. The other types of magic were probably not affected that much and never had been. Only that their practitioners had been marginilized in the west. 

[Dukhasinov]

1 minute ago, The Sleeper said:

There kind of was. The vision of the mummer's dragon was one hint and the fact that it was made clear that baby Aegon's corpse was unrecognisable. More thah those there is Varys. He drops hints from time to time and it is basically his raison d' etre.

As for the magic thing, fire magic specifically gets a lot easier after the birth of the dragons. The glass candles started burning afterwards, the conjurer in Qarth had his powers magnified and the alchemists managed to make a lot of wildfire a lot more quickly. It could be that the dragons brought the magic or the magic brought the dragons, or both. The rise in fire magic coincided with the birth of the dragons. The other types of magic were probably not affected that much and never had been. Only that their practitioners had been marginilized in the west. 

Or the fire magic was enhanced with the coming of the comet. But the birth of the dragons was the result of blood magic, not fire magic.

[desire]

Hugh Hammer and  Ulf the White do we forget them as well as blood and cheese? 

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, Dukhasinov said:

You know, it`s possible for both sides of this debate to be correct. If Daemon Targaryen wanted to get some strange, the possibility of the girl being his unknown and unacknowledged daughter might not bother him. He didn`t have any qualms about banging his 14-year-old niece.

I know, although I do prefer the idea of there not being an affair. I entertained the father-daughter incest thing before reading FaB, but the way this thing is presented there nudged me in the other direction.

For what it's worth, it is confirmed that Daemon Targaryen actually had bastards:

Quote

In 116 AC, in the Free City of Pentos, Lady Laena gave birth to twin daughters, Prince Daemon’s first trueborn children.

There would be no reason to add 'trueborn' here, if the twins were Daemon's first children. And as it happens, Nettles is older than Baela and Rhaena.

George clearly didn't want to make the Nettles-Daemon thing as explicit as he could have made it, and it might be one of the instances where the historian(s) writing things actually had no clue what was going on in truth - but still give us tidbits in the writing for the reader to connect dots they overlooked. Sort of like how they had no idea what drove Larys Strong, or how a historian writing on the main series would have no idea what drove Littlefinger and Varys or who was behind the murder of Jon Arryn or Joffrey Baratheon unless those truths actually enter into public record.

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 11/23/2018 at 8:50 AM, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

I thought Nettles was a Dragonseed. 

Me too. 

[The Sleeper]

13 hours ago, Dukhasinov said:

Or the fire magic was enhanced with the coming of the comet. But the birth of the dragons was the result of blood magic, not fire magic.

It might as well be due to the comet. It's as plausible as anything else. 

Interesting idea about the blood magic. The subsequent immolation should make it of both though, shouldn't it. However I also actually think that the dragon eggs were revived through Rhaego's sacrifice in the womb. 

[Dukhasinov]

16 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Interesting idea about the blood magic. The subsequent immolation should make it of both though, shouldn't it. However I also actually think that the dragon eggs were revived through Rhaego's sacrifice in the womb. 

The sacrifice could have been Rhaego`s, or Drogo`s, or both. It`s King`s blood either way. King`s Blood was shed and awakened dragons from stone. Makes you wonder what "Fire and Blood" really means....

[The Sleeper]

19 minutes ago, Dukhasinov said:

The sacrifice could have been Rhaego`s, or Drogo`s, or both. It`s King`s blood either way. King`s Blood was shed and awakened dragons from stone. Makes you wonder what "Fire and Blood" really means....

Roast on Sunday?