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Varysblackfyre321

Does Nettles prove the Valaryians weren’t exceptional?

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27 minutes ago, Dukhasinov said:

The sacrifice could have been Rhaego`s, or Drogo`s, or both. It`s King`s blood either way. King`s Blood was shed and awakened dragons from stone. Makes you wonder what "Fire and Blood" really means....

On a more serious note, I think it was Rhaego. After all Drogo survived after a fashion. Mirri's ritual worked as it was supposed to, in the end. The stallion's life for Drogo's and when Dany went in to the tent Rhaego got caught in the ritual. It fits. The stallion was inadequate or unsuitable for bringing Drogo back fully, but Rhaego was unborn life for unborn life. 

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On 11/23/2018 at 2:58 PM, The Sleeper said:

If Brown Ben Plum's blood from five or six generations back is enough to get a response from dragons, then the potential dragonriders would number in the hundreds though. At the time of the Dance it would mean that a random person from Dragonstone and possibly from Driftmark would have good odds of being capable of riding a dragon. 

This makes it virtually impossible to determine whether the blood of the dragon is in fact a prerequisite or not, but it also makes the blood of the dragon far less significant. 

Not necessarily. It would seem to me that a drop of dragonblood is necessary but not sufficient to ride a dragon. 

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On 11/24/2018 at 12:48 AM, White Ravens said:

 

I also agree that Nettles is a dragonseed.  Discussions about Nettles often include enthusiastic speculation about what ever became of her and people seem even more interested in what happened to Sheepsteeler after they said goodbye to Daemon and vanished from history.  In light of Nettles being a dragonseed I'm now wondering who her offspring might be and where potential dragonriders might be hidden in the upcoming books.  There is a legend that the Burned Men worshipped a fire-witch in the Mountains of the Moon and that they would send their boys to present her with gifts and brave the flames of her dragon to prove their manhood.  Could it be that Nettles was that fire-witch and that Timett One-Eye is descended from her and Daemon Targaryen and that he may be revealed to also be a dragonseed?

Abso-freaking-lutely! Although, I think it woulda been cooler if he had descended from Aemond and Alys Rivers

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16 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Not necessarily. It would seem to me that a drop of dragonblood is necessary but not sufficient to ride a dragon. 

From what we can fathom, it is just that. Although it seems not all dragonlord descendants can do it - but whether that's due to them not having 'the right drop of blood' or whether it is just them not having whatever it takes to impress or command or subdue a dragon is completely unclear. I mean, even Dany nearly got herself killed by Drogon in ADwD, so this is always a fine line. And she most definitely has more than enough dragonlord blood.

3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Abso-freaking-lutely! Although, I think it woulda been cooler if he had descended from Aemond and Alys Rivers

Obviously I don't buy the idea that Daemon and Nettles had an affair, but if she was his daughter she may have still had children up in the mountains by some of the clansmen, so who knows.

However,

Quote

Aemond's *Jon Snow* is still alive and kicking at Harrenhal at the end of FaB. And he is, of course, 'the true king'
who allegedly has a dragon and all - according to Alys Rivers Prince Aemond did marry her before his death.

That boy will likely have better things to do than father burned men at the end of the world...

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On 11/25/2018 at 10:43 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

A ugly scarred brown bastard who was raised a peasant and whose mother was a prostitute bastard girl who can ride a small dragon. Her background, looks, sex and skin, and possibly mixed heritage are going to be things that weigh heavily against her in just gaining influence in Westeros feudal system. Really, don’t see how she would be more threatening than any of the other dragon-seeds who’d be in the position to try for a dragon. Like when the offer went out for people to go try to tame a dragon it was expected that any Targyen bastard would/could try. Hell its quite a real possibility that a bastard of Daemon actually did try and fail at taming one of them. And, Rhaensys was chosen as the King’s successor. That was what the war basically boiled down to-whether or not his will was legal. Nettles isn’t like to actually draw a strong following should she actually try pressing any  “rights” she percieved she had. She wasn’t made legitimate, she wasn’t chosen as her father’s heir to anything, she would be merely awknowledged as one of his bastards-still a benefit for Nettles but not too much to the point she could pose any sort of threat to house Targyen.

Ouch! Where's the love, man? 

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On 11/26/2018 at 3:50 AM, Ran said:
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Because there were once many dragonrider families in Valyria, and there are likely descendants of them still floating around, especially in places like Volantis and Lys. As well as, of more recent vintage, dragonseeds and the descendants of dragonseeds who could be offered rewards to come over and ride a dragon for the Sealord of Braavos.

 

Like the Black Pearl a few generations later. 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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You know, about Quentyn, I am not convinced that he never had a chance to take Viserion. If Rhaegam had not come back down from behind...

Quote

The other Windblown were pulling back. This was more than even Pretty Meris had the stomach for. Viserion's horned head moved back and forth between them and his prey, but after a moment he forgot the sellswords and bent his neck to tear another mouthful from the dead man. A lower leg this time.

Quentyn let his whip uncoil. "Viserion," he called, louder this time. He could do this, he would do this, his father had sent him to the far ends of the earth for this, he would not fail him. "VISERION! " He snapped the whip in the air with a crack that echoed off the blackened walls. The pale head rose. The great gold eyes narrowed. Wisps of smoke spiraled upward from the dragon's nostrils.

"Down," the prince commanded. You must not let him smell your fear. "Down, down, down. " He brought the whip around and laid a lash across the dragon's face. Viserion hiss ed.

And then a hot wind buffeted him and he heard the sound of leathern wings and the air was full of ash and cinders and a monstrous roar went echoing off the scorched and blackened bricks and he could hear his friends shouting wildly.Gerris was calling out his name, over and over, and the big man was bellowing, "Behind you, behind you, behind you! "

The Dragontamer, Dance 68

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On 11/28/2018 at 1:49 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Ouch! Where's the love, man? 

Am I wrong? Nettle’s looks, skin, upbringing and the fact she is the daughter of a prostitute makes her unlikely to be seen as a a threat if she were recognized as the illegitimate daughter of Daemon. Bastards like her don’t typically pose a threat to their trueborn siblings. Y

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On 11/26/2018 at 10:34 AM, The Sleeper said:

That would work. Or it is possible. Or he doesn't know for sure. 

The Valyrians somehow became dragon lords in the first place. If it was done once then it could be done again.

Why no one else managed it? We know now that dragons hang around volcanoes, so circumstances in Valyria would dictate that the people there would have to live with them and eventually coming to take them. 

And suppose someone did figure out how to bond with dragons. What would the Valyrians do? Maybe wipe them 9f the face of the earth?

My theory is that the "creation of dragonriders" (or even dragons as we know them, because to be honest: we don't know what and how "dragons" were (if they were) before the Valyrians bound them) was the event which the legend of Azor Ahai speaks about, personalized, just as the "last hero". In my opinion the legends transport what was done to end the last Long Night. One was the bounding (or even creation) with (of) fire made flesh, aka dragons.

This would explain why only people out of the bounded/magically changed bloodlines could bound with dragons - if we have it right that Valyrian blood is indeed required.

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2 hours ago, Morte said:

My theory is that the "creation of dragonriders" (or even dragons as we know them, because to be honest: we don't know what and how "dragons" were (if they were) before the Valyrians bound them) was the event which the legend of Azor Ahai speaks about, personalized, just as the "last hero". In my opinion the legends transport what was done to end the last Long Night. One was the bounding (or even creation) with (of) fire made flesh, aka dragons.

This would explain why only people out of the bounded/magically changed bloodlines could bound with dragons - if we have it right that Valyrian blood is indeed required.

What if it weren't the Valyrians who created dragons in the first place? 

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On 11/28/2018 at 4:11 PM, The Sleeper said:

Rhaego was unborn life for unborn life. 

Right.  That makes sense.  The life of a babe is innocent and thus pure.  Like sacrificing a virgin to the altar of the gods.  After all, what god worth its salt would accept the leavings of another man.  An untouched, maiden, now she has great value to the gods.  Giving her life to honor the gods is really honoring the gods.  For these reasons, I believe the naked woman in the HOTU prophecy is the future of Sansa Stark.  

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17 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

What if it weren't the Valyrians who created dragons in the first place? 

As I said, it can well be, that the Valyrians did "only" create the bound between them and the dragons, and that the dragons were always there. We don't know. But as you said: Nobody else did tame dragons, at least not in "historical times" (which are quite longer in Essos) and as far as we know.

There is a connection between the Others and the existence of dragons however, a balance between fire and ice. It was disturbed with the death of  the last dragon, and the winters are becoming longer since.

This points toward the dragons existence predating their taming (if we think, as we are told, that the Others also were always were), but would not collide with the theory of the Valyrians gaining their ability to ride them through a however horrible "Nissa-Nissa-like" sacrifice, if we want to stay with the theory that you need dragon blood to ride a dragon.

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I really wish we had been given just one example of a Targ trying to claim a dragon and dying for it. That would make more sense with regards to Aemond claiming Vhagar and Dany almost dying when she mounted Drogon.

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On 12/9/2018 at 12:28 AM, Morte said:

As I said, it can well be, that the Valyrians did "only" create the bound between them and the dragons, and that the dragons were always there. We don't know. But as you said: Nobody else did tame dragons, at least not in "historical times" (which are quite longer in Essos) and as far as we know.

There is a connection between the Others and the existence of dragons however, a balance between fire and ice. It was disturbed with the death of  the last dragon, and the winters are becoming longer since.

This points toward the dragons existence predating their taming (if we think, as we are told, that the Others also were always were), but would not collide with the theory of the Valyrians gaining their ability to ride them through a however horrible "Nissa-Nissa-like" sacrifice, if we want to stay with the theory that you need dragon blood to ride a dragon.

I think it’s pressumptivr to say this pointed to the dragons pre-existing their taming. After all it’s been shown through the likes of Craster and the Night’a king, that they have had human servants in the world. Or they’re at least working with some humans. Possible one of those guys informed the others about the others after Targyens have tamed them.

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2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I think it’s pressumptivr to say this pointed to the dragons pre-existing their taming. After all it’s been shown through the likes of Craster and the Night’a king, that they have had human servants in the world. Or they’re at least working with some humans. Possible one of those guys informed the others about the others after Targyens have tamed them.

Sorry, but did you mean " Possible one of those guys informed the others about the dragons after Targyens have tamed them."?

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On 11/28/2018 at 5:08 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

You know, about Quentyn, I am not convinced that he never had a chance to take Viserion. If Rhaegam had not come back down from behind...

The Dragontamer, Dance 68

I agree, We can say that he failed, but I don't think we can say for sure that he failed because a lack of Targaryen blood. There were other factors that might have interfered.

There's even a chance that there are fewer generations between Quentyn and Daenerys/Maron than between Daenerys and Daeron II/Myriah.

Daenerys and Quentyn are both descended from children of Aegon IV/Naerys and the Prince/Princess of Dorne, but Quentyn's ancestress Daenerys was closer in age to her brother's son Maekar than to her brother Daeron.

And though Aerys's eldest son Rhaegar wed Doran's younger sister Elia, Doran himself was only a few years younger than Aerys, while Elia was a few years older than Aerys's eldest son Rhaegar. 

So while it is possible that there were four generations between Quentyn and Daenerys/Maron, as there were between Daenerys and Daeron/Myriah, it's also possible there were only three.

And while Daenerys's parents and grandparents were Targaryen siblings in name, that was after three straight generations of Targaryen/non-Targaryen parents:

- Daeron/Myriah Martell
- Maekar/Dyanna Dayne
- Aegon/Betha Blackwood
- Jaehaerys/Shaera Targaryen
- Aerys/Rhaella Targaryen

Not that this is all down to a science that can be determined, but my point is only that, even though we think of Daenerys as having been born a century before Quentyn, the number of generations and ancestors between them might be less than we might expect.

And without knowing the ancestry of Doran's parents, we don't even know whether or not they had wed anyone with more recent Targaryen ancestry, even if Daenerys was their most recent direct Targaryen ancestor in the late 180s AC.

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Nettles doesn't prove anything, but she keeps the question burning, makes sure we don't stop wondering and asking, which is the point of her.

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There's really no reason to think Nettles isn't a dragon seed just like the rest. Frankly, it smacks of racism based on nothing but her being brown to suggest she is the exception.

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9 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Nettles doesn't prove anything, but she keeps the question burning, makes sure we don't stop wondering and asking, which is the point of her.

Correct, she doesn't provide proof one way or the other.  That is one way to look at her role in the story.  Her ancestry is unknown though.  And the particular dragon which she was able to bond with was not a Targaryen dragon.  Sheepstealer was a wild dragon who was already nesting at Dragonstone before Lord Aenar and his familly arrived on the island.  The way she did it was the same way used by the first Valyrian to befriend a dragon long ago.  George Martin likened the first bonding with a dragon to the "breaking" of a horse.  Naturally, they are different beings but both involve a process.  There is always a danger and he intended it that way.  For that reason, I do not believe a dragon can be warged.  That would take away the risk and akin to cheating.  For my part, I do not want anybody to warg a dragon.  

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Just now, Geo Da Ray said:

Correct, she doesn't provide proof one way or the other.  That is one way to look at her role in the story.  Her ancestry is unknown though.  And the particular dragon which she was able to bond with was not a Targaryen dragon.  Sheepstealer was a wild dragon who was already nesting at Dragonstone before Lord Aenar and his familly arrived on the island.  The way she did it was the same way used by the first Valyrian to befriend a dragon long ago.  George Martin likened the first bonding with a dragon to the "breaking" of a horse.  Naturally, they are different beings but both involve a process.  There is always a danger and he intended it that way.  For that reason, I do not believe a dragon can be warged.  That would take away the risk and akin to cheating.  For my part, I do not want anybody to warg a dragon.  

Sheepstealer did not predate the Targaryens on Dragonstone, it hatched while they were there.

What happened to Varamyr when Mel roasted him in the eagle is what will happen if/when someone tries to skinchange a dragon. It will become a key point that to skinchange a dragon a person's soul must be able to survive in the fire, must become fire, and that will be a one way road, a second lifing not a skinchanging. And that will be what the Valyrian dragon riding families worked out how to do that no-one else did. And what happened to Rhaego and Drogo.

Euron is trying to skinchange a dragon, he thought that is what his horn does, but because his horn blower died he's coming to realise that it isn't a skinchanging but it is a second lifing. He has to jump from a tall tower (suicide/sacrifice himself) to fly (skinchange a dragon).

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