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@.H.When you say you were on volume 31, do you mean volume as in trade paperback collection of chapters? Because I think there are only like 37 Dark Horse volumes of the Manga out atm. I ask because the chronology issue should be pretty apparent by volume 31, but I hesitate to say more and spoil something. What's happening in the story where you're at now? 

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4 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

@.H.When you say you were on volume 31, do you mean volume as in trade paperback collection of chapters? Because I think there are only like 37 Dark Horse volumes of the Manga out atm. I ask because the chronology issue should be pretty apparent by volume 31, but I hesitate to say more and spoil something. What's happening in the story where you're at now? 

There are 39, last one came out in July from Dark Horse.  Those are the ones I am reading.

I'm nearly done with volume 38 now.

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On 11/23/2018 at 1:54 PM, Sci-2 said:

(Also, is he in some way a genuine messiah?)

Well, I am now caught up.  I feel somewhat disappointed in how sprawling the story has become, but I hope it can be wrapped up at some point.

That being said, I think it is pretty clear in my mind, that Griffith is a messiah.  The issue of course is that he isn't a savior of mankind, even if he does save them from time to time.  Sure, Falconia is something of a paradise, but I doubt this is Griffith's ultimate aim.  Griffith seems to be ambition, elevated to demonic levels.  Although I am not really sure that each member is exactly an "embodiment" of a given sin, I think that is part of their "personality."  That is, it is likely the "sin" that drove them most to Demonhood, they were "exemplars" of something that would drive them to seek power at any sacrificial cost..  So, Griffith, for example, received the Crimson Beherit because he was so far and away more ambitious than any other human.  He got it because he would sacrifice anything and anyone for his aim.

Not only that, but I don't think the fact that Femto is the Fifth member is just akin to the relation to hands of a finger.  In this sense, the general "sacred numerology" that Christianity subscribes to is that of a Trinity being the Godhood, and so then the Quaternary (usually as a Mandala) being the addition of Man, to "complete" the Unity (along the lines of Jesus Christ).  Here though, we already had Four-but-Incomplete.  Five not only completes the motif of a Hand (and a Divine One), but also adds what is likely the Quintessence.  I don't know exactly where this idea comes to me from (possibly Mage: The Ascension, via Shakespere's Hamlet), but the case that Femto, transmuted as Griffith, the Fifth, reborn a man, seems like it must be related to the idea of Man as Quintessence, that is, the unifying Fifth Element.  Not only a man, but the Divine Man (or like Adam, First Man) that is, Man Undivided, which is why Griffith is so hauntingly androgynous, yet Femto is really not.

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19 hours ago, Dora Vee said:

Yup. I firmly believe that Elfhelm will be attacked, but will have a twist. 

Something like this: https://griffiths-huggybox.tumblr.com/post/161046951708/bthump-divinesong-said

Speaking of theories/meta: 

https://griffiths-huggybox.tumblr.com/post/162227141473/universal-monarchy 

I could see Casca convincing Guts they have to go to Falconia to stop the destruction of Elfheim. However, I do wonder if the God Hand traded a good deal of power to enact their plans [and thus may not be able to easily overwhelm all the enchanted areas). IIRC Griffith's incarnation during the Conviction Arc threw the other 4 into the Astral depths, and now they seem to be incarnated in the World and possibly thus w/ limitations.

After all, Griffith seems to have a good deal of power but to still be mortal. He needs Sonia's psychic power and the Apostle's strength (also Zodd's ability to fly)...unless he's playacting but I don't think that's the case? There seem to be limits to his power, at least when not in Femto form?

Edited by Sci-2

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13 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

However, I do wonder if the God Hand traded a good deal of power to enact their plans. IIRC Griffith's incarnation during the Conviction Arc threw the other 4 into the Astral depths, and now they seem to be incarnated in the World and possibly thus w/ limitations.

After all, Griffith seems to have a good deal of power but to still be mortal. He needs Sonia's psychic power and the Apostle's strength (also Zodd's ability to fly)...unless he's playacting but I don't think that's the case? There seem to be limits to his power, at least when not in Femto form?

Well, doesn't it stand to reason that outside the Astral Realm they'd likely be limited?  Likely Griffith most of all, because he has something of a dual nature?  That is, he is Femto in the Astral Realm, Griffith in the Mortal Realm.  IIRC, we actually haven't seen Griffith Reborn do anything very physical, besides control demons and seem to have Unerring Grace (OK, he did cut off one guy's head, right?).  I think it's pretty plausible that he is actually weaker, physically, than he was before Ascending.  In fact, without that Grace, I don't think he is even a match for the Skull Knight.

Speaking of which, I do wonder if there is some kind of circular time thing going on, as to why the Skull Knight has things in common with Guts (and so, is helping him).

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So I'm thinking a good rule of thumb for spoilers should be the official Dark Horse released volumes get discussed, non-collected chapters we put in spoiler tags. Cool?

6 hours ago, .H. said:

Well, doesn't it stand to reason that outside the Astral Realm they'd likely be limited?  Likely Griffith most of all, because he has something of a dual nature?  That is, he is Femto in the Astral Realm, Griffith in the Mortal Realm.  IIRC, we actually haven't seen Griffith Reborn do anything very physical, besides control demons and seem to have Unerring Grace (OK, he did cut off one guy's head, right?).  I think it's pretty plausible that he is actually weaker, physically, than he was before Ascending.  In fact, without that Grace, I don't think he is even a match for the Skull Knight.

I suspect that is why the God-Hand are trying to, as Sci-2 put it, re-enchant the world. By bleeding the astral world into the real, they are now able exist in the physical world in a more substantial, long-term way than they were before. I also have a suspicion that the Skull Knight knew exactly what he was doing when he swung his sword at Griffith. That is to say, he knew that he would be bringing the God-Hand into the world, where Void is possibly vulnerable to his sword, and damn the consequences.

Regarding his powers as "Griffith," we've seen him summon a wind to keep Ganishka from taking on his apostle form and fold space to redirect the Skull Knight's blow. Granted, the latter was when he had taken on the form of Femto.

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3 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Regarding his powers as "Griffith," we've seen him summon a wind to keep Ganishka from taking on his apostle form and fold space to redirect the Skull Knight's blow. Granted, the latter was when he had taken on the form of Femto.

That whole conversation between Ganishka and Femto right before the former dies is something I've been pondering. When the Eclipse concludes Slan says future humanity will call the coming age, "The Age of Darkness"*.

But then Femto even tells Ganiska he can look upon the light b/c it exists in the darkness of the world that Ganishka is saddened by.

So even if it's an Age of Darkness is there a goal of bringing some Light into the world, something good? Or at least by bringing a sort of peace to decimated humanity is the Idea of Evil weakened?

 

*This implies there is a later humanity that survives the mess the God Hand have thrown the world into, which is interesting in and of itsel.

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11 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Regarding his powers as "Griffith," we've seen him summon a wind to keep Ganishka from taking on his apostle form and fold space to redirect the Skull Knight's blow. Granted, the latter was when he had taken on the form of Femto.

Right.  I mean, both of those things are decidedly non-physical.  In the sense of that neither requires physical strength or great physical constitution.  I think Griffith needs all those things, because absent his "Unerring Grace" his mortal form is weak.  Heck, even before his "rebirth" Guts bested him.  I don't think his rebirth bad him more physical powerful, only more powerful in commanding "astral" power.

6 hours ago, Sci-2 said:

That whole conversation between Ganishka and Femto right before the former dies is something I've been pondering. When the Eclipse concludes Slan says future humanity will call the coming age, "The Age of Darkness"*.

But then Femto even tells Ganiska he can look upon the light b/c it exists in the darkness of the world that Ganishka is saddened by.

So even if it's an Age of Darkness is there a goal of bringing some Light into the world, something good? Or at least by bringing a sort of peace to decimated humanity is the Idea of Evil weakened?

Griffith wants to be "the savior."  That is, Falconia will be the "light" in a "Dark" world.  That means everyone will have to worship Griffith, which is likely exactly what he wants.  So, the Devil makes a Hell of Darkness so that he can be Lucifer and hold The Only Light?  It's a nice little tricksy way to get everyone to consider the Devil as good.

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7 hours ago, .H. said:

Griffith wants to be "the savior."  That is, Falconia will be the "light" in a "Dark" world.  That means everyone will have to worship Griffith, which is likely exactly what he wants.  So, the Devil makes a Hell of Darkness so that he can be Lucifer and hold The Only Light?  It's a nice little tricksy way to get everyone to consider the Devil as good.

I don't doubt Griffith's ego is involved with him being the Messiah, but I think Ganiska's monologue about the sad state of the world right before Femto speaks to him presents an interesting juxtaposition.

The darkness Ganishka speaks of is psychological/spiritual darkness, but then he opens his eyes and is surrounded by the light of what I presume is an Interstice? Ganishka says the light is too bright for him to see, at which point Femto tells him he is capable of seeing b/c the carrier of light (him) is within the darkness as well.

So is Femto simply amused in that moment, musing about his ability to act as supposed Savior when he is in fact an agent of Evil's Age of Darkness? Or is he actually being kind/merciful here, and saying that the Good/Light is found within the Darkness?

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1 minute ago, Sci-2 said:

I don't doubt Griffith's ego is involved with him being the Messiah, but I think Ganiska's monologue about the sad state of the world right before Femto speaks to him presents an interesting juxtaposition.

Indeed, I do think the "state of the world" must play a part in why it is the time for the 5th.

17 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

The darkness Ganishka speaks of is psychological/spiritual darkness, but then he opens his eyes and is surrounded by the light of what I presume is an Interstice? Ganishka says the light is too bright for him to see, at which point Femto tells him he is capable of seeing b/c the carrier of light (him) is within the darkness as well.

He also says that "it is within darkness that true light is discovered."  I think it is reasonable to propose that Griffith is a "real" savior, but I don't think it is actually true.  Mostly because the Darkness is the Godhand collective doing.  So, what need would then "true light" be if it weren't for artificial darkness?

2 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

So is Femto simply amused in that moment, musing about his ability to act as supposed Savior when he is in fact an agent of Evil's Age of Darkness? Or is he actually being kind/merciful here, and saying that the Good/Light is found within the Darkness?

Well, it's kind of like Munchhausen-by-proxy, in a way.  Or more like, if someone set fire to your house, then runs in and saves you so you fawn over their heroism.  Femto gets to be the Devil and Griffith the savior and they are both the same person.  So, Griffith wants to be the savior and the king and get all those accolades and the worship, so why not make a Hell only he can save everyone from?

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1 minute ago, .H. said:

Indeed, I do think the "state of the world" must play a part in why it is the time for the 5th.

Well it might also be the Godhand lost their original Femto when they ended the Skull Knight's kingdom. They seem to be bound to events like the Eclipse, but can "fake" them as we seen with the incredible amount of effort put into the Conviction Arc's Incarnation Ceremony.

So I don't know if it's the state of the world, per se, so much as the Godhand only being able to work within the natural conjunctions that occur every few centuries to millennia.

Quote

He also says that "it is within darkness that true light is discovered."  I think it is reasonable to propose that Griffith is a "real" savior, but I don't think it is actually true.  Mostly because the Darkness is the Godhand collective doing.  So, what need would then "true light" be if it weren't for artificial darkness?

Well, it's kind of like Munchhausen-by-proxy, in a way.  Or more like, if someone set fire to your house, then runs in and saves you so you fawn over their heroism.  Femto gets to be the Devil and Griffith the savior and they are both the same person.

Well Griffith could be both a real savior but also an asshole in how he got there...but yeah I think the Godhand has a plan here that hasn't been unveiled. It makes me wonder if Griffith might be a pawn of the other four, who in turn may be pawn of the IoEvil.

And I don't know if the darkness is artificial, at the least not the darkness of human nature Ganiska speaks of. Even if the IoEvil didn't exist humans would still be evil. The world Griffith is creating seems far more virtuous than the one that used to exist pre-Fantasia.

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So, Griffith wants to be the savior and the king and get all those accolades and the worship, so why not make a Hell only he can save everyone from?

But Fantasia isn't Hell per se? This is an interesting point I saw here or on the Reddit - that if humanity suffers less isn't the IoEvil and thus the Godhand diminished in power?

You have Quipplothic entities like the Trolls but also a variety of natural entities like unicorns and mermaids. The number of humans has also dropped significantly with likely large portion of survivors in Falconia's paradise...so is the IoE going to weaken in these conditions? Perhaps it also seeks its own ending?

 

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3 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

The world Griffith is creating seems far more virtuous than the one that used to exist pre-Fantasia.

Is it though?  I mean, it does unify humanity, but it does so under extreme duress and so is really just cooercion, no?

4 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

But Fantasia isn't Hell per se? This is an interesting point I saw here or on the Reddit - that if humanity suffers less isn't the IoEvil and thus the Godhand diminished in power?

Well, it might not be all about power though, in it's raw form.  I mean, I don't really know what the Godhand, collective, want in the grand scheme of things.  Maybe it's a question of access?  So they'd trade power for the ability to directly access the real world?

But is humanity really suffering less in Fantasia?  I thought it was remarked  that life was harder now, because there are so many more demons and whatever the hells on the loose.  The only place it is easier is in Falconia, which is exactly what Griffith wants, to be The King.  The Savior.

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Hmm, so in looking at some things, should we be reading and considering the "Lost Chapter" #83?  It seems to have some large consequences...

I fear I have tainted myself now...

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Chapter 83 is considered non-canon. That being said, some people have argued that Falconia/Griffith is "humanity's dream", but I don't believe it.

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Yeah I ignore 83 with regards to the canon story line.

(But it does impact how I think of the story)

Edited by Sci-2

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1 hour ago, Sci-2 said:

Yeah I ignore 83 with regards to the canon story line.

(But it does impact how I think of the story)

It's very nebulous.  It is published, but supposedly not further published because it revealed too much...

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2 minutes ago, .H. said:

It's very nebulous.  It is published, but supposedly not further published because it revealed too much...

Yeah I think Miura may change things a bit. The whole question of Fate/Causation without the IoEvil is interesting...how much is the God Hand (specifically Void) correct about the determination of events.

Flora rejected the idea of inescapable fate, the Skull Knight seems to suggest what takes place in the Higher Realms influences events in the physical world...but he does suggest Guts can be a fish that breaks the surface of the Fate's flow...

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11 hours ago, Sci-2 said:

Yeah I think Miura may change things a bit. The whole question of Fate/Causation without the IoEvil is interesting...how much is the God Hand (specifically Void) correct about the determination of events.

Flora rejected the idea of inescapable fate, the Skull Knight seems to suggest what takes place in the Higher Realms influences events in the physical world...but he does suggest Guts can be a fish that breaks the surface of the Fate's flow...

Well, honestly, I read chapter 83 and it felt really ham-handed to me, in a way none of the other chapters ever have.  Griffith seemed so unlike his usual character.  My guess is that was supposed to reflect him being at his "lowest" but it really didn't come across that way.  I honestly think this is why it was nixed...

14 hours ago, Sci-2 said:

Well it might also be the Godhand lost their original Femto when they ended the Skull Knight's kingdom. They seem to be bound to events like the Eclipse, but can "fake" them as we seen with the incredible amount of effort put into the Conviction Arc's Incarnation Ceremony.

I don't think there were 5 members originally.  In fact, there was likely a time where there were zero God Hands.  Only once the Idea of Evil came to exist, did the events (like the Eclipse) mean that another could be "made" (every, 226 years or whatever it is).  I think they could "fake" the Incarnation Ceremony because that was only to bring Griffith into the fold of the mortal realm, Femto was already existent (so Griffith was too).

My guess is that the Skull Knight was/is to Void as Guts is to Femto.  Fitting in a way, to oppose the First and the Last in similar manner.  The Skull Knight is not destined, in all likely-hood to kill Femto, so he can't.  That is Gut's place (if there is a place).

Griffith likely is the manifestation of human-kind's desire for "Fantastic Moral Clarity."  That is, not that Griffith is actually morally clear, but that the world is cleft in the clear appearance of a Manichean division between Good and Evil.  Everything becomes a dichotomy: the world: Hell (Fantasia)/Heaven (Falconia), "god:" Griffith (Savior)/Femto (the Devil), ontology: Order (Griffith/Falconia)/Chaos (Femto/Fantasia).

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Still working through my re-read, so I'm holding back for a bit. Though I think Void - Femto is the first and only God-Hand. I suspect that the four or five angels that destroyed Gaiseric's empire (around the time of Void's ascension) were the elemental kings that Schierke calls upon when performing some of the more extravagant spells.

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Right.  I mean, both of those things are decidedly non-physical.  In the sense of that neither requires physical strength or great physical constitution.  I think Griffith needs all those things, because absent his "Unerring Grace" his mortal form is weak.   Heck, even before his "rebirth" Guts bested him.  I don't think his rebirth bad him more physical powerful, only more powerful in commanding "astral" power.

Oh I see what you're saying. Though, I don't imagine he's any weaker than he was before his ascent, after being tortured into a cripple. In either case, I doubt this is all going to end with him and Guts having another hilltop duel. As you say, physically Guts is well beyond now even Griffith at his peak (though it is odd that he was able to cut off Zodd's arm, given the latter can rumble with the Skull Knight).

I think rather Guts is going to be given the choice to "sacrifice" the child that Griffith is bonded to for his vengeance.

1 hour ago, .H. said:

Well, honestly, I read chapter 83 and it felt really ham-handed to me, in a way none of the other chapters ever have.  Griffith seemed so unlike his usual character.  My guess is that was supposed to reflect him being at his "lowest" but it really didn't come across that way.  I honestly think this is why it was nixed...

Sloppy translation maybe?

Quote

My guess is that the Skull Knight was/is to Void as Guts is to Femto.

Absolutely.

Edited by Let's Get Kraken

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