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36 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Though I think Void - Femto is the first and only God-Hand.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.

36 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Oh I see what you're saying. Though, I don't imagine he's any weaker than he was before his ascent, after being tortured into a cripple. In either case, I doubt this is all going to end with him and Guts having another hilltop duel. As you say, physically Guts is well beyond now even Griffith at his peak (though it is odd that he was able to cut off Zodd's arm, given the latter can rumble with the Skull Knight).

I think rather Guts is going to be given the choice to "sacrifice" the child that Griffith is bonded to for his vengeance.

Right, my point being less that Griffith is set up to actually fight Guts.  In fact, I agree, that is specifically not the direction I think the story will take.  One, because Griffith isn't the "real enemy," Femto is.  The likely crisis, in my mind, is what happens with Griffith when Guts fights Femto (and does that baby's "perspective" come into play, because "Griffith" is actually something of a Trinity: Femto, Guts, Casca=Griffith).  Griffith, at one point, admits that Guts is something of a "blind spot" for him, which is likely because he is literally Gut's son, in the backward causality sense.

42 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Sloppy translation maybe?

A very likely case.  Probably a directly literal translation, which is almost always not very good.

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52 minutes ago, .H. said:

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.

Void through Femto. Meaning that there wasn't another God Hand before the current. 

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1 hour ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Void through Femto. Meaning that there wasn't another God Hand before the current. 

Meaning there was no 5th before Femto?  I mean, I definitely agree on that.

But meaning that there aren't 3 others besides Void and Femto?  I'm don't see why that would be the case, they are existent, right?  I mean, we see them and we see them do things.  I'm not sure why it would be the case that they don't exist.

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43 minutes ago, .H. said:

Meaning there was no 5th before Femto?  I mean, I definitely agree on that.

But meaning that there aren't 3 others besides Void and Femto?  I'm don't see why that would be the case, they are existent, right?  I mean, we see them and we see them do things.  I'm not sure why it would be the case that they don't exist.

What I meant was that besides Void, Slan, Ubik, Conrad, and Femto, there was no previous God Hand. No five before Void. Void was the first and Femto the last, so I worded it as Void through Femto. 

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44 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

What I meant was that besides Void, Slan, Ubik, Conrad, and Femto, there was no previous God Hand. No five before Void. Void was the first and Femto the last, so I worded it as Void through Femto. 

Oh, ok, yeah, brain fart there, I often get so wrapped up in Biblical terms, and the like, that in my mind I thought you were considering Femto was actually just a manifestation of Void himself.  Which was certainly confusing.

I get what you mean now.  Yeah, I think it is likely very much the case that pre-Void, there were no God Hands.  Perhaps because there just didn't need to be?  I mean, if the Idea of Evil uses God Hands to achieve some agenda, it's plausible that before there were God Hands there either was no IoE or the IoE didn't have or need anything to be done.

It's also plausible that whatever the Skull Knight did (or didn't do) actually caused Void to be needed and his continual action necessitates more God Hands.  Then again, it's probably just as likely that the creation of Void necessitated the Skull Knight, of course.

Edited by .H.

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7 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Still working through my re-read, so I'm holding back for a bit. Though I think Void - Femto is the first and only God-Hand. I suspect that the four or five angels that destroyed Gaiseric's empire (around the time of Void's ascension) were the elemental kings that Schierke calls upon when performing some of the more extravagant spells.

To  be clear I didn't mean the rest of the God Hand were replaced, but only that one of their number may have been lost in the battle against Gaiseric.

I like the idea that it was the Elemental Kings rather than the Godhand that destroyed the Kingdom, though it seems poignant that the discrepancy between 4 or 5 angels refers to the Godhand?

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Immediately post Eclipse the Skull Knight comes and ends up rescuing Guts/Casca. Griffith/Femto tries to implode him, but misses.

When he is about to try again, it isn't clear to me if he simply isn't fast enough or if he hesitates upon seeing Guts. He does seem to study his hand and has a "...." speech bubble...

I'm doubtful it was hesitation b/c the other Godhand members don't remark on it, and it would seem a bit odd Griffith/Femto hesitates then when he was willing to kill them and just violently raped Casca. Still...the imagery of the moment makes me wonder...

edit: The anime makes it seem to very clearly be hesitation. Interesting that this is before Griffith incarnates into the body of Guts/Casca's demon-fetus.

edit x 2: Hmmm maybe I made a mistake, perhaps the issue is Griffith/Femto is unused to his powers. He seems to stare at his hand, possibly wondering what went wrong when he tried to use the Implosion Attack a second time...

Edited by Sci-2

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3 hours ago, Sci-2 said:

So....anyone still doing a re-read?

Yeah, and it's taking longer than i expected. But that's because I'm noticing so much more than I did a few years ago when I did my last read-through. I'm actually in the midst of a bit of a write up on Guts and Griffith's first sword dance.

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On 11/29/2018 at 2:53 PM, Sci-2 said:

I'm doubtful it was hesitation b/c the other Godhand members don't remark on it, and it would seem a bit odd Griffith/Femto hesitates then when he was willing to kill them and just violently raped Casca. Still...the imagery of the moment makes me wonder...

edit: The anime makes it seem to very clearly be hesitation. Interesting that this is before Griffith incarnates into the body of Guts/Casca's demon-fetus.

edit x 2: Hmmm maybe I made a mistake, perhaps the issue is Griffith/Femto is unused to his powers. He seems to stare at his hand, possibly wondering what went wrong when he tried to use the Implosion Attack a second time...

Hmm, I think there are a couple ways you can go with that.

One possibility is that he realized it was pointless, the Skull Knight had ways to get around that power.  I find it a little hard to believe that Femto would be unused to wielding the power.  He showed no such hesitation the first time using it.

To issue forth a little backward causality, isn't the Skull Knight escaping what essentially allows Griffith to be reborn?  In that case, did something else "stop" Femto from wielding his power?

Although, the "looking at his hand" part, he sort of seems bewildered by it almost.  This seems slightly more clear to me in the anime (or maybe only just because I happened to see a clip from it just now).  Is it perhaps that he is horrified by what he can now do?  In that sense, is he maybe unwilling to use that versus Guts?

(I caught the clip from falling down a silly rabbit hole where some guy made a video attempting to make the case that "Griffith Did Nothing Wrong" meme (seemingly akin to the "Magnus Did Nothing Wrong meme from 40k) is actually anything more than nonsense.  Which is, in itself, nonsense.)

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On 11/28/2018 at 1:27 PM, .H. said:

My guess is that the Skull Knight was/is to Void as Guts is to Femto.  Fitting in a way, to oppose the First and the Last in similar manner.  The Skull Knight is not destined, in all likely-hood to kill Femto, so he can't.  That is Gut's place (if there is a place).

 

Hi guys, so excited to find this thread here. Like ASOIAF I really know no one else who reads and wants to discuss Berserk extensively.

Regarding the OP- we have a few clues about the behind the scenes of the God Hand in the chapter mentioned by other users. It is no longer published with Berserk because Miura thought it revealed too much. Regarding the God Hand, please note it might not be complete (although I think they state they are). Void has 6 fingers on each hand, while there are only 5 members. Could be just a design aspect to make him weirder, but it might also hint at something considering he is thought to be the first member of the God Hand. He also seems to have some past beef and history with Skull Knight and it is heavily hinted Skulls Knight might be King Gaiseric from the Midland legends. Both Skull Knight and Guts seem to living outside of causality and I tend to think they have both achieved through sheer will which is why they end up being natural antagonists for the God Hand and their divine plan.

I also think the God Hand is bullshiting everyone when they tell them they can't escape their destiny or make decisions outside of causality. It's no mistake that the behelit only activates during the most dire and desperate hour of its possessor's life. These bitches are literally the devil and are not to be trusted. Falconia is too good to be true and while Griffith is saving all of these people, how many of them has he killed already just because he allowed all of these horrors back into the world? He's created a world where you're either with him at his mercy or die. 

Bit of a different train of thought, but I always  thought it was curious how there have definitely been mass sacrifices in the past of Midland as we see the skulls at the bottom of the pit where Griffith was being kept all have the stigmata. It's weird considering that all sacrifices that we know of took place in a different dimension and the bodies staid there/were devoured. And yet here we have tens of skulls bearing the sign of a sacrifice at the bottom of a pit.

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On 11/28/2018 at 2:26 PM, Let's Get Kraken said:

Oh I see what you're saying. Though, I don't imagine he's any weaker than he was before his ascent, after being tortured into a cripple. In either case, I doubt this is all going to end with him and Guts having another hilltop duel. As you say, physically Guts is well beyond now even Griffith at his peak (though it is odd that he was able to cut off Zodd's arm, given the latter can rumble with the Skull Knight).

I think rather Guts is going to be given the choice to "sacrifice" the child that Griffith is bonded to for his vengeance.

 

Griffith is not bonded with Gut's child. He just hijacked his body, effectually ejecting the kid from it (although he didn't have much of it to begin with). His astral form seems to be fine, although the Moon Boy doesn't seem to have the power to manifest himself whenever he wants, only when the veil separating the astral world from the physical form sees to be thinner (like on a full moon for example).
Griffith still retains something of that body hence why Casca gravitated towards him when she saw him. I tend to think she did because of that not because she was salivating after Griffith again like Guts thought.

Griffith's new human followers just creep me out, man. That oracle chick can see so much but she can't and won't perceive the evil that he is.

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On 11/28/2018 at 3:11 PM, .H. said:

Right, my point being less that Griffith is set up to actually fight Guts.  In fact, I agree, that is specifically not the direction I think the story will take.  One, because Griffith isn't the "real enemy," Femto is.  The likely crisis, in my mind, is what happens with Griffith when Guts fights Femto (and does that baby's "perspective" come into play, because "Griffith" is actually something of a Trinity: Femto, Guts, Casca=Griffith).  Griffith, at one point, admits that Guts is something of a "blind spot" for him, which is likely because he is literally Gut's son, in the backward causality sense.

Guts was always a "blind spot" for Griffith, figuratively and now maybe literally, even though he never wanted to admit it.
The whole reason his plan failed is because he completely crumbled and fucked himself over when Guts left instead of analysing and coming to terms with his feelings.

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17 hours ago, Ellaena said:

Both Skull Knight and Guts seem to living outside of causality and I tend to think they have both achieved through sheer will which is why they end up being natural antagonists for the God Hand and their divine plan.

Well, I think that it is likely that only the Skull Knight is actually outside "Causality" because without him, Gut would be dead.  But also interesting is that I think, without the Skull Knight, Griffith might not be reborn.  So, then Falconia would seem to be not actually be part of Causality.  Which, I don't think makes sense.  If the "plan" all along was to bridge the world 

I think the "truth" is that there is no intelligible way to make sense of "Causality" as presented.  That is likely because there is "Causality" as anyone could see it and then there is "meta-Causality" as everything must actually be (that is, how is actually happens).  So, the Godhands imagine they can see "everything" and they can, so far as they can see everything that can be seen.  But that isn't everything.  For all that their perceptual horizons are vast, vastness couldn't encompass infinity.  The real question would be, "can the Idea of Evil see all meta-Causality?"

The answer is likely no (because the IoE is presumably not infinite), but even if it is yes, it probably doesn't matter.  Since the Godhand don't know all that the Idea of Evil knows, they can only know what they can see.  And they can only see "so far."  So far as their proximal relationship with Causality extends.  The Skull Knight, on the other hand, exists both along that line of causality and simultaneously on his own line.  In some places those "lines" overlap and other places they do not.

So, what does that mean?  Well, it means that the Godhand aren't lying, or wrong when they say what should happen.  But they are wrong, in the sense that there is a sort of "intercestional force" that is cause outside of Causality.  That is, not Guts himself, but the Skull Knight (for whatever reason).  They can't see that, because, well, for the same reason why you couldn't see the back of your eyes.  They can't know it, because it isn't intelligible.  So, while they know and understand that the Skull Knight exists, there is no way to account for him, because he is outside the realm of possibilities they can access.

 

Edited by .H.

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15 hours ago, Ellaena said:

Griffith is not bonded with Gut's child.

I saw this talked about some on SK.net. People who say this are wrong, and will pay for their crimes.

Edited by Let's Get Kraken

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14 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

I saw this talked about some on SK.net. People who say this are wrong, and will pay for their crimes.

I haven't had the chance to discuss this with anyone until now but to me it seems pretty clear that Griffith used the child's body to forge one for himself, like a vessel, but the child itself, his astral form, seems to be at large and can manifest itself when the astral plane and the real world overlap. Are you of a different opinion?

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On 2/4/2019 at 7:47 PM, .H. said:

Well, I think that it is likely that only the Skull Knight is actually outside "Causality" because without him, Gut would be dead.  But also interesting is that I think, without the Skull Knight, Griffith might not be reborn.  So, then Falconia would seem to be not actually be part of Causality.  Which, I don't think makes sense.  If the "plan" all along was to bridge the world 

I think the "truth" is that there is no intelligible way to make sense of "Causality" as presented.  That is likely because there is "Causality" as anyone could see it and then there is "meta-Causality" as everything must actually be (that is, how is actually happens).  So, the Godhands imagine they can see "everything" and they can, so far as they can see everything that can be seen.  But that isn't everything.  For all that their perceptual horizons are vast, vastness couldn't encompass infinity.  The real question would be, "can the Idea of Evil see all meta-Causality?"

 

 

By saying that Skull Knight and Guts are outside of causality I mean to say that they are not bound by it like the God Hand preach everyone should be. They can go in and out of it like a "jumping fish" in the river of causality, as Skull Knight put it. And they clearly find a connection to each other due to that. That doesn't mean they can't be used by the God Hand though. Skull Knight was used to destroy Ganishka, for example.

The God Hand make it out to be as if there was no way Griffith would have made any other decision but to become Femto, but I doubt that's the case. He was born destined to become God Hand and his group was born to be sacrificed and that was that, but that to me rings almost as a ploy to remove agency from "the chosen one", hence why I am saying they are sly. 

I agree with all you said. The Idea of Evil can't be infinite because according to itself it's origins are human in the end and I am doubting that the ultimate nature of causality is what the God Hand makes it to be.

Edited by Ellaena

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58 minutes ago, Ellaena said:

By saying that Skull Knight and Guts are outside of causality I mean to say that they are not bound by it like the God Hand preach everyone should be.

Well, I think the key is right there, in your choice of words.  The Godhand are not wrong, everyone should be beholden to Causality.  Except the Skull Knight just isn't.  (My guess is that this is because he is dead, yet somehow didn't suffer the full effects of death.)

1 hour ago, Ellaena said:

The God Hand make it out to be as if there was no way Griffith would have made any other decision but to become Femto, but I doubt that's the case. He was born destined to become God Hand and his group was born to be sacrificed and that was that, but that to me rings almost as a ploy to remove agency from "the chosen one", hence why I am saying they are sly. 

Well, in one sense, this is correct.  Griffith, faced with what he was faced with, would make that choice.  We can think about how things could have been different, but that doesn't mean they would have been.  Consider flipping a coin.  Could be heads, could be tales.  But how you flipped it, the sum total of intervening causal factors, determines which side is up and which is down.  It's fair, before the flip and in the absence of knowing all those factors, to surmise there is an equal chance of either side being up, but that isn't actually true.  If you determined, with certainty, the method to always flip 'heads' and exacted that method, you don't have a 50% chance of tails.

Sure, we could consider, that, well, if circumstances were different, the outcome would be different.  But that's a tautology and tells us nothing.  If things were different, things would be different.  That tells us nothing about anything, as a matter of fact.  The Godhand aren't lying, they are expressing the way things are.  The way things should be, from the direct line of causality they have access to.

The fact that this isn't the only line of causality though, means they can be confounded to some degree.  Griffith was crafted to be Femto.  The events of his entire life were made to lead him directly to that choice.  So, from a causal perspective, he had no more choice than our deliberately flipped coin does.  It will land on it's determined side and so Griffith will choose the ordained path.

Could Griffith choose to just stay a cripple?  In the abstract sense, yes.  In the actual concrete sense, no, not at all, because the sort of person who could sacrifice themselves, die a sort of ego-death, and give up on their "dream" is not Griffith at all.

1 hour ago, Ellaena said:

I agree with all you said. The Idea of Evil can't be infinite because according to itself it's origins are human in the end and I am doubting that the ultimate nature of causality is what the God Hand makes it to be.

A good point, the IoE is finite, because it had a beginning.  The Godhand too are finite, with finite perception.  While the Godhand cannot see the full breadth all Causality (that is, the causality the includes the Skull Knight's seeming time outside of Time), they do speak what would be "truth" at least as far as they can see it.  For all the things they are, I don't find it likely they are liars.

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12 hours ago, Ellaena said:

I haven't had the chance to discuss this with anyone until now but to me it seems pretty clear that Griffith used the child's body to forge one for himself, like a vessel, but the child itself, his astral form, seems to be at large and can manifest itself when the astral plane and the real world overlap. Are you of a different opinion?

Sorry, I thought you were somebody I know, I was just fucking around.

Edited by Let's Get Kraken

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