Sansa-Harrold Hardying

[Lord_Tarly]

Hi everyone!

I was wondering, will Littlefinger's plan really work? Let's say Sansa marries Ser Harrold Hardying as Alayne Stone, which I think is already unlikely because how a knight could accept the hand of a bastard girl, how will Sansa reveal her true identity without causing protestations by the great noble families (Royce, Redfort, Hunter, Corbray, etc.)? Maybe it's because I didn't read the plan more carefully, but I'm interested to see how it'll end up. What do you guys think about it?

[Son of Man]

I'm rooting for this plan to fail.  But it can work.  Baelish has something he can use for leverage.  Food.  

[wia]

That's definitely not Littlefinger's real plan. 

But beside that: 

- Should Alayne be legitimized, she's the only heir to Harrenhall and Riverlands. It's iffy, but doable.

- Should Sansa reveal herself, she's the heir to Winterfell and the North. The lords of the Vale were considering joining Robb's cause, so here's their chance.

But Littlefinger gets nothing out it, so it's not happening.

[Lollygag]

LF is lying to Sansa about his plans in general. Here he has to cycle through lies which Sansa doesn't buy until at last he has to resort to distracting her with another topic.

AFFC Alayne I

"Oh, much of it, that's true. Not all, however. I am well loved in Gulltown, and have some lordly friends of mine own as well. Grafton, Lynderly, Lyonel Corbray . . . though I'll grant you, they are no match for the Lords Declarant. Still, where would you have us go, Alayne? Back to my mighty stronghold on the Fingers?"

She had thought about that. "Joffrey gave you Harrenhal. You are lord in your own right there."

"By title. I needed a great seat to marry Lysa, and the Lannisters were not about to grant me Casterly Rock."

"Yes, but the castle is yours."

"Ah, and what a castle it is. Cavernous halls and ruined towers, ghosts and draughts, ruinous to heat, impossible to garrison . . . and there's that small matter of a curse."

"Curses are only in songs and stories."

That seemed to amuse him. "Has someone made a song about Gregor Clegane dying of a poisoned spear thrust? Or about the sellsword before him, whose limbs Ser Gregor removed a joint at a time? That one took the castle from Ser Amory Lorch, who received it from Lord Tywin. A bear killed one, your dwarf the other. Lady Whent's died as well, I hear. Lothstons, Strongs, Harroways, Strongs . . . Harrenhal has withered every hand to touch it."

"Then give it to Lord Frey."

Petyr laughed. "Perhaps I shall. Or better still, to our sweet Cersei. Though I should not speak harshly of her, she is sending me some splendid tapestries. Isn't that kind of her?"

The mention of the queen's name made her stiffen. "She's not kind. She scares me. If she should learn where I am—"

"—I might have to remove her from the game sooner than I'd planned. Provided she does not remove herself first." Petyr teased her with a little smile. "In the game of thrones, even the humblest pieces can have wills of their own. Sometimes they refuse to make the moves you've planned for them. Mark that well, Alayne. It's a lesson that Cersei Lannister still has yet to learn. Now, don't you have some duties to perform?"

 

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, wia said:

That's definitely not Littlefinger's real plan. 

But beside that: 

- Should Alayne be legitimized, she's the only heir to Harrenhall and Riverlands. It's iffy, but doable.

- Should Sansa reveal herself, she's the heir to Winterfell and the North. The lords of the Vale were considering joining Robb's cause, so here's their chance.

But Littlefinger gets nothing out it, so it's not happening.

The whole point is to manipulate Harry through Alayne, who he saved and loves him.

Spoiler

He's also in line to get a shitload of money from selling grain when the winter sets in, per the Alayne chapter from WoW

 

[Nevets]

I think his plan might be to: have Sansa marry Harry and have a child, who would be heir to the vale (after Harry).  Robert and Harry then die.  Littlefinger marries Sansa or otherwise obtains control of the child, and rules the vale through him (hopefully it's a son).

Of course, much can, and likely will, go wrong with this plan, assuming it is LFs actual plan (or a reasonable facsimile)

[wia]

9 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The whole point is to manipulate Harry through Alayne, who he saved and loves him.

  Hide contents

He's also in line to get a shitload of money from selling grain when the winter sets in, per the Alayne chapter from WoW

 

Harold is an adult man who does not seem to be of a very high opinion of women and thus is unlikely to listen to them.

Spoiler

He is, but I don't see how it's relevant to manipulating Harold. Should Harold inherit, he'd be the one making money from that grain - all the more reason for him to get rid of Littlegfinger. Seeing how he knows other Vale lords better than Littlefinger and how other lords are not madly in love with Littlefinger, it's a great setting for them to team up.

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

4 minutes ago, wia said:

Harold is an adult man who does not seem to be of a very high opinion of women and thus is unlikely to listen to them.

  Reveal hidden contents

He is, but I don't see how it's relevant to manipulating Harold. Should Harold inherit, he'd be the one making money from that grain - all the more reason for him to get rid of Littlegfinger. Seeing how he knows other Vale lords better than Littlefinger and how other lords are not madly in love with Littlefinger, it's a great setting for them to team up.

 

When I read the Alayne spoiler chapter, I came to a different conclusion. Re-read the last part.

[wia]

1 minute ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

When I read the Alayne spoiler chapter, I came to a different conclusion. Re-read the last part.

I remember that chapter quite well. If you want to make a point, how about just explaining it instead of telling people you're talking with what to do.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 minute ago, wia said:

I remember that chapter quite well. If you want to make a point, how about just explaining it instead of telling people you're talking with what to do.

Spoiler

He's eating out of her hand by the end of the passage, and it's a scheme that Petyr cooked up.

     For a moment he looked shocked.  But as the song was ending, he burst into a laugh.  “No one told me you were clever.”

     He has good teeth, she thought, straight and white.  And when he smiles, he has the nicest dimples.  She ran one finger down his cheek.  “Should we ever wed, you’ll have to send Saffron back to her father.  I’ll be all the spice you’ll want.”

     He grinned.  “I will hold you to that promise, my lady.  Until that day, may I wear your favor in the tourney?”

     “You may not.  It is promised to… another.”  She was not sure who as yet, but she knew she would find someone.

And it's not a particularly subtle passage either.

[wia]

1 minute ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

  Hide contents

He's eating out of her hand by the end of the passage, and it's a scheme that Petyr cooked up.

     For a moment he looked shocked.  But as the song was ending, he burst into a laugh.  “No one told me you were clever.”

     He has good teeth, she thought, straight and white.  And when he smiles, he has the nicest dimples.  She ran one finger down his cheek.  “Should we ever wed, you’ll have to send Saffron back to her father.  I’ll be all the spice you’ll want.”

     He grinned.  “I will hold you to that promise, my lady.  Until that day, may I wear your favor in the tourney?”

     “You may not.  It is promised to… another.”  She was not sure who as yet, but she knew she would find someone.

And it's not a particularly subtle passage either.

Spoiler

There's like a gulf between Harold wanting to wear Alayne's favour in a tourney and Harold letting Littlefinger rule the Vale because Alayne asked him to. He ditched Cissy when she gained weight and he will ditch Saffron for Alayne. Him thinking that a girl is hot is nowhere near eating out of her hand.

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

5 minutes ago, wia said:

  Hide contents

There's like a gulf between Harold wanting to wear Alayne's favour in a tourney and Harold letting Littlefinger rule the Vale because Alayne asked him to. He ditched Cissy when she gained weight and he will ditch Saffron for Alayne. Him thinking that a girl is hot is nowhere near eating out of her hand.

 

Spoiler

Hot and clever and played like a fiddle.

Alayne manages to flip the script on him in a few paragraphs. That's the long and short of it. LF doesn't have to rule the Vale directly. He wants to manipulate Harry through Alayne, which she manages to do twice in the span of a few seconds. It's broadcast plain as day and he's already sealing alliances with and control over families like the Waynwoods (debt) and Corbrays (arranged marriage). LF never does anything directly. It's all by proxy and has been the entire series.

Why you think he's getting nothing out of the arrangement is honestly baffling to me.

 

[wia]

Just now, Universal Sword Donor said:

  Hide contents

Hot and clever and played like a fiddle.

Alayne manages to flip the script on him in a few paragraphs. That's the long and short of it. LF doesn't have to rule the Vale directly. He wants to manipulate Harry through Alayne, which she manages to do twice in the span of a few seconds. It's broadcast plain as day and he's already sealing alliances with and control over families like the Waynwoods (debt) and Corbrays (arranged marriage). LF never does anything directly. It's all by proxy and has been the entire series.

Why you think he's getting nothing out of the arrangement is honestly baffling to me.

 

Spoiler

 

She manages to go from him disliking her to thinking she's hot. Which isn't rocket science. Thinking that she's hot doesn't really require anything from him. He just wants to bang her. 
Sharing his power with her dad though? - That's a whole another matter.

It's a whole lot easier for Littlefinger to rule the Vale through Robert, a child. Why go from easy to difficult and risky?

You thinking that Harold can be manipulated sufficiently in terms of ruling the Vale by Alayne is baffling to me. 

 

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 minute ago, wia said:

  Hide contents

 

She manages to go from him disliking her to thinking she's hot. Which isn't rocket science. Thinking that she's hot doesn't really require anything from him. He just wants to bang her. 
Sharing his power with her dad though? - That's a whole another matter.

It's a whole lot easier for Littlefinger to rule the Vale through Robert, a child. Why go from easy to difficult and risky?

You thinking that Harold can be manipulated sufficiently in terms of ruling the Vale by Alayne is baffling to me. 

 

Spoiler

I didn't just say it would be by Alayne, but that seems to be easy for you to ignore. He desire is to exercise power economically (through food supplies and money), politically (with his influence growing by debt collection and alliances), and emotionally through Alayne.

It won't work because Sansa is clearly seeing through his plans and has little to no desire to be his catspaw, but the plan is very apparent and nearly a carbon copy of what with Lysa.

 

[wia]

1 minute ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

  Hide contents

I didn't just say it would be by Alayne, but that seems to be easy for you to ignore. He desire is to exercise power economically (through food supplies and money), politically (with his influence growing by debt collection and alliances), and emotionally through Alayne.

It won't work because Sansa is clearly seeing through his plans and has little to no desire to be his catspaw, but the plan is very apparent and nearly a carbon copy of what with Lysa.

 

Spoiler

Well as it happens, having Harold in power makes Littlefinger's ability to exercise power economically, politically and emotionally way more difficult than with Robert. So again, why would he go from easier to more difficult?

Also his plan with Lysa got him to be the Master of coin of the whole kingdom and the Lord Paramount of Riverlands and Lord Protector of the Vale. What is it that he would give up the Lord Protector of the Vale position with all it's power for that he could manipulate Harold to give him?

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

Just now, wia said:

  Hide contents

Well as it happens, having Harold in power makes Littlefinger's ability to exercise power economically, politically and emotionally way more difficult than with Robert. So again, why would he go from easier to more difficult?

Also his plan with Lysa got him to be the Master of coin of the whole kingdom and the Lord Paramount of Riverlands and Lord Protector of the Vale. What is it that he would give up the Lord Protector of the Vale position with all it's power for that he could manipulate Harold to give him?

 

Independence from the crown. He cares not a whit for the RL. He knows he can't hold it nor administer it because he's not a native RL and merits little if any respect by the existing houses. As to Harry vs SR, well he addresses this:

When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie. Jon Arryn's bannermen will never love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their Young Falcon 

 

[wia]

1 minute ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Independence from the crown. He cares not a whit for the RL. He knows he can't hold it nor administer it because he's not a native RL and merits little if any respect by the existing houses. As to Harry vs SR, well he addresses this:

When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie. Jon Arryn's bannermen will never love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their Young Falcon 

 

Spoiler

Who's independence from the crown and in what way? And how does it benefit LF?

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

Just now, wia said:

  Hide contents

Who's independence from the crown and in what way? And how does it benefit LF?

 

Vale and / or North. How does an independent kingdom benefit LF? Control of taxation, influence over policy, increase his power base through rewards from Harry/Alayne. You can probably insert a random string of verbs and nouns and they would make sense.

[Lollygag]

Spoiler

There’s a lot of Lannister symbols around LF and LF said the name Alayne was for his mother. Maybe Ellyn Reyne who did to the Lannisters what LF seems to be hoping from Sansa? Names are awful similar.  We do have LF’s Dad fighting under Roger Reyne.

But anyhow, whether LF is the son of Ellyn or whether this is just a symbolic parallel, I’m guessing LF has Ellyn’s plan in mind based on the TWOW chapter. It would make sense from him given how much a hold Catelyn has over him and in some ways, I think LF is developmentally stunted, emotionally locked in the past, and that this is going to part of his downfall.

But, I agree that it’s a very problematic plan and this looks to stem from LF’s rather odd past with this sort of thing. I also am not really sure LF intends to have Sansa marry Harry. The Lannisters have a huge wife/whore thing and Sansa is now a Lannister. Ellyn did a pretty thorough job without being married either and that might be a big reason why Robert won't work (too young), but Harry (sleeps around, Robert Baratheon lite) would work great.

The reason I'm thinking there is no marriage planned beyond the Tyrion problem is that Sansa has been worried about running out of dye and having to thin it. Then LF seems not so concerned anymore about people knowing who Sansa is. A dishonored Sansa Stark who's been the mistress of Harry is more likely to be seen as a match for LF himself in time.

TWOW Alayne ?

"Oh, I think you do," said Littlefinger, with one of those smiles that did not reach his eyes. "You will be the most beautiful woman in the hall tonight, as lovely as your lady mother at your age. I cannot seat you on the dais, but you'll have a place of honor above the salt and underneath a wall sconce. The fire will be shining in your hair, so everyone will see how fair of face you are. Keep a good long spoon on hand to beat the squires off, sweetling. You will not want green boys underfoot when the knights come round to beg you for your favor."

I don’t think Sansa will be so against this as one might think. Not only is there no judgement here, but I see some admiration.

ASOS Sansa IV

As they were crossing the yard, Prince Oberyn of Dorne fell in beside them, his black-haired paramour on his arm. Sansa glanced at the woman curiously. She was baseborn and unwed, and had borne two bastard daughters for the prince, but she did not fear to look even the queen in the eye. Shae had told her that this Ellaria worshiped some Lysene love goddess. "She was almost a whore when he found her, m'lady," her maid confided, "and now she's near a princess." Sansa had never been this close to the Dornishwoman before. She is not truly beautiful, she thought, but something about her draws the eye.

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, and at this whole thread turning into a spoiler box. Vale threads are better suited to the TWOW forum.

[wia]

Just now, Universal Sword Donor said:

Vale and / or North. How does an independent kingdom benefit LF? Control of taxation, influence over policy, increase his power base through rewards from Harry/Alayne. You can probably insert a random string of verbs and nouns and they would make sense.

Spoiler

He isn't the one who's gonna have control, it's Harold.
And if you're suggesting that he's gonna have informal control, then how is it better than having the same thing but over the whole kingdom which is what he had when he was the Master of coin? - Seems like a demotion to me.