[spoilers] saera

[sweetsunray]

Over a year ago I delved into Aegon, Illyrio and Varys... while not everything is yet published I did discuss some of first findings in general in a thread called ragtag band of misfits. The Blackfyre hypothesis did not convince me, and for example certain arguments are a misreading to me (the cherry arguments... because to me cherries are used in the sexual "popping cherry" metaphor rather than used to denote houses; and the color reversion of the Targ words is a reader invention unconfirmed by text). At the time we only had the world book and aDwD info to go by, and my eye fell on the mention of Saera Targaryen who was said to be wild, was a novice to the Mother (like her sister), but ran off to Lys and eventually started a pillow house in Volantis. It did not mention whether she ever had any children, and in how far her parents and people at the time knew of her whereabouts. I speculated that Illyrio's wife with the name Serra and how died of greyscale, her hands kept by Illyrio (and Saera's septa sister died of greyscale on her infected arms) might be a descendant from this Saera Targaryen rather than a female Blackfyre or Brightflame. And I speculated that Steffon Baratheon was sent to Volantis by Mad Aerys in search for Saera's descendants (as these would be Targs).

Fire & Blood has made both speculations a valid alternative to Aegon=Blackfyre theory. We are informed that Allyssane knew of Saera's whereabouts AFTER she ran off; that she knew she was first in Lys and afterwards moved to Volantis, and that she wrote letters to Saera (that went unanswered). More, it confirms that Saera had at least 3 sons, for 3 of her sons put forward a claim at the Great Council that Jaehaerys organized to settle the succession issue. On top of that through the information on the Rogares we also learn how wealthy families of Lysene nobility can end up being slaves at Lys themselves: bankrupcy. And if Mad Aerys was looking for dragonblood descendants that weren't Blackfyres or children of one of the Great Houses in Westeros it now makes sense he sent Steffon to Volantis in search of them: it was known Saera spent the rest of her life in Volantis and three of her sons came to Westeros to put a claim forward at the Great Council.

 

 

[Sly Wren]

15 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And I speculated that Steffon Baratheon was sent to Volantis by Mad Aerys in search for Saera's descendants (as these would be Targs).

Fire & Blood has made both speculations a valid alternative to Aegon=Blackfyre theory. We are informed that Allyssane knew of Saera's whereabouts AFTER she ran off; that she knew she was first in Lys and afterwards moved to Volantis, and that she wrote letters to Saera (that went unanswered). More, it confirms that Saera had at least 3 sons, for 3 of her sons put forward a claim at the Great Council that Jaehaerys organized to settle the succession issue. On top of that through the information on the Rogares we also learn how wealthy families of Lysene nobility can end up being slaves at Lys themselves: bankrupcy. And if Mad Aerys was looking for dragonblood descendants that weren't Blackfyres or children of one of the Great Houses in Westeros it now makes sense he sent Steffon to Volantis in search of them: it was known Saera spent the rest of her life in Volantis and three of her sons came to Westeros to put a claim forward at the Great Council.

1. Good catch!

2. So are you thinking this could mean Steffon was more likely to actually find Saera's descendants? If so, this could make it more likely that Steffon did find someone and then lied about it.

Steffon knew Tywin at court for as long at he knew Aerys--are you thinking Tywin and Steffon might have agreed that Steffon would look and not find? Tywin still wanted Rhaegar to marry Cersei--no way he gave up on that. If Saera's locale was generally known, the fact that Steffon found no one "suitable" might now be suspect.

Or is there another set of implications you are seeing with this?

[Jaak]

Saera was captured in 83, and escaped in 85. 101 was 16 years later. The 3 boys she sent to Westeros could have been at most 15 - the others younger. She may have had other boys she did not send abroad at tender age, or daughters.

They were dismissed as claimants, but they were advertised and believed as Targaryen descendants. In Westeros, the rule for noble bastards is "bastard surname" according to region where they are "from" - note how the three families of Lucamore were split to three surnames even though they had lived for years nearby. But we have not heard of Volantis having a "bastard surname". Is default to mother´s surname legal in Volantis the way it is not customary in Westeros?

[Lord Varys]

As I said elsewhere, I can see Mysaria being Saera's eldest child, perhaps fathered by a sailor or the captain of the ship who carried her to Lys, but considering what we learn about inheritance in Lys (illegitimate children inheriting parts of their parents' estates - as the Rogare bastards did) one actually assumes that Saera's children would actually have been Targaryens in Lys, starting cadet branches of House Targaryen there (or being integrated in their father's families in case of the triarch's son).

Whether Saera's line continued in Volantis would have to be revealed in later books. 101 AC is not the 280 AC.

With Saera's story in FaB I doubt her remark about 'having her kingdom here (in Volantis) actually only referred to some brothel. Chances are that Saera Targaryen died a very wealthy and powerful woman in Volantis, perhaps one who ended up marrying a triarch rather than just giving birth to her bastard.

But the idea that a man like Aerys II Targaryen would actually marry his son and heir to a woman descended from a whore, and one actually living as a slave, that is, is completely ridiculous. Princes do not marry slaves in arranged marriages. The point of arranged marriages is to prevent things like that. If Steffon Baratheon had chanced of a descendant of Princess Saera's living in slavery, he would have nodded and smiled and done his best to get away from that woman as quickly as possible.

And Illyrio Mopatis - if he were the father of Aegon - only needed a wench with silver-gold hair and purple eyes to increase his chances of producing a boy resembling the late Prince Aegon. This would have been about looks, not about blood. Either Illyrio has Targaryen/Blackfyre blood, or Aegon has none - if he is not Rhaegar's son after all. Illyrio is not stupid enough to just impregnate one woman in his desire to produce a fake Aegon. The child could be a girl. The child could have just blond hair and not purple/blue eyes, etc.

[sweetsunray]

18 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

1. Good catch!

2. So are you thinking this could mean Steffon was more likely to actually find Saera's descendants? If so, this could make it more likely that Steffon did find someone and then lied about it.

Steffon knew Tywin at court for as long at he knew Aerys--are you thinking Tywin and Steffon might have agreed that Steffon would look and not find? Tywin still wanted Rhaegar to marry Cersei--no way he gave up on that. If Saera's locale was generally known, the fact that Steffon found no one "suitable" might now be suspect.

Or is there another set of implications you are seeing with this?

Well, not all these 3 sons who put their claim forward at the Great Council would have been born in Volantis for one.

Here's the quote

Quote

No fewer than fourteen claims were duly examined and considered by the lords assembled. From Essos came three rival competitors, grandsons of King Jaehaerys through his daughter Saera, each sired by a different father. One was said to be the very image of hsi grandsire in his youth. Another, a bastard born to a triarch of Old Volantis, arrived with bags of gold and a dwarf elephant. The lavish gifts he distributed amongst the poorer lords undoubtedly helped his claim. The elephant proved less useful. (Princess Saera herself was still alive and well in Volantis, and only thirty-four years of age; her own claim was clearly superior to those of any of her bastard sons, but she did not choose to press it. "I have my own kingdom here," she said, when asked if she meant to return to Westeros.)

We only know of one who was born in Volantis, to a triarch. Even if bastard born (out of wedlock), he's noble blood on both sides. The first one likely may have a Lyseni father (who also sport the Valyrian looks the most). Saera spent a few years at Lys first, before moving to Volantis. But it appears that the descendants of this bastard son of the Triarch would be the candidates that Mad Aerys wanted to be sniffed out by Steffon.

Meanwhile we also learn of several people who instead of the Black were given the option to go in exile for years in Essos. Most of these rented their sword in a free-company to fight in one of the wars of the disputed lands, and most die.

I think Steffon sincerely went in search for the descendants of Saera's Volantis son, but at least in Volantis the branch may have died out, most likely because these men joined free-companies and died, and thus any recognized female descendant in a marriage became less likely over time (we're talking over 170 years later). So, he found none in Volantis. IMO he should have searched in Lys, where Serra imo is Saera's female descendant. But after the Rogare fiasco during the regency of Aegon III, Mad Aerys probably didn't want to have anything to do with Lys.

As for Serra, Illyrio's wife, she may have been legitimately born into wedlock in a noble house that lost power and wealth with every family member ending up as slaves... per what happens to the Rogares at Lys durig the regency of Aegon III. And yes that family may have come about by a child born to Saera out of wedlock at Lys, fathered by some Lyseni noble.

[Jaak]

It´s interesting that Saera chose to not answer Alysanne´s letters. Especially considering she did choose to send three sons, all of then 15 or less, abroad to face their less indulgent grandfather.

What did Alysanne say in her letters?

In the later years, Saera might have pointed out that she had the independence to pick her customers, whores working for her, and as a landowner in Volantis I suspect also vote.

[Lord Varys]

We don't know the bastard of the triarch was born in Volantis. He could have been conceived and born in Lys while the man was visiting there, with Saera serving as his mistress for a time. Considering her character she likely would have forced the guy to take care of the child.

[sweetsunray]

32 minutes ago, Jaak said:

It´s interesting that Saera chose to not answer Alysanne´s letters. Especially considering she did choose to send three sons, all of then 15 or less, abroad to face their less indulgent grandfather.

What did Alysanne say in her letters?

In the later years, Saera might have pointed out that she had the independence to pick her customers, whores working for her, and as a landowner in Volantis I suspect also vote.

Here's one of the quotes, though Alyssane reaches out to Saera while she's at Lys as well. Its set after Gael drowned herself in 99 AC.

Quote

Saera still lived, somewhere in Volantis (she had departed Lys some years before, an infamous woman but a wealthy one), but she was dead to Jaehaerys, and the letters Alyssane sent her secretly from time to time all went unanswered.

The other quote is after Viserra's death

Quote

The queen took strength from their presence [Maegelle's and Gael's] ... but even so, more and more she found her thoughts turning to the daughter who was not with her. Though Jaehaerys had forbidden it, Alysanne had defied his edict and secretly engaged agents to keep watch over her wayward child across the narrow sea. Saera was still in Lys, she knew from their reports, still at the pleasure garden. Now twenty years of age, she oft entertained her admirers still garbed as a novice of the Faith; there were evidentally a good many Lyseni who took pleasure in ravishing innocent young women who had taken vows of chastity, even when the innocence was feigned.

It was her grief over the loss of Princess Viserra that finally drove the queen to approach Jaehaerys about Saera once again. She brought Septon Barth along with her, to speak on the virtues of forgiveness and the healing properties of time. Only when Barth had finished did Her Grace mention Saera's name. "Please," she begged the king, "it is time to bring her home. She has been punished enough, surely. She is our daughter."

Jaehaerys would not be moved. "She is a Lyseni whore," his Grace replied. "She opened her legs for half my court, threw an old woman down the steps, and tried to steal a dragon. What more do you require? Have you given any thought as to how she got to Lys? She had no coin. How do [you] think she paid for her passage?"

The queen cringed at the harshness of his words, but still she would not yield. "If you will not bring Saera home for love of her, bring her home for love of me. I need her."

"You need her as a Dornishman needs a pit viper," Jaehaerys said. "I am sorry. King's Landing has sufficient whores. I do not wish to hear her name again." With those words, he rose to leave, but at the door he halted and turned back. "We have been together since we were children. I know you as well as you know me. RIght now you are thinking that you do not need my leave to bring her home, that you can take SIlverwing and fly to Lys yourself. What would you do then, visit her in her pleasure garden? Do you imagine she will fly into your arms and beg forgiveness? She is more like to slap your face. [...]You want her, yes, I hear you, you need her ... but she does not need you, or me, or Westeros. She is dead. Bury her."

Jaehaerys already gives the answer on why Saera does not reply the letters and chooses to remain in Volantis: she doesn't need any of them.

While Jaehaerys calls her a whore, she is more than likely to have been a courtesan, like the Black Swan was. Courtesans have another station in Essos than a bedslave or whore has. It gives her freedom to choose her lovers, and sexual freedom and attention is what Saera seemed to be after. Westeros has camp followers and prostitutes, but no courtesan culture. 

Her sons cannot be courtesans. Their options in Essos are limited to being a sellsword and die in the Disputed Lands or as a catamite. Hence, she sent them to Westeros at an age where they could be taken in as squires in a time where there was peace (unlike Essos)

ETA: of course, later at his deathbed, he becomes more and more convinced that Ceryse Hightower is Saera returned, and so he too has a change of heart and "needs her" to be back in Westeros as well.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

While Jaehaerys calls her a whore, she is more than likely to have been a courtesan, like the Black Swan was. Courtesans have another station in Essos than a bedslave or whore has. It gives her freedom to choose her lovers, and sexual freedom and attention is what Saera seemed to be after. Westeros has camp followers and prostitutes, but no courtesan culture. 

Saera would have a Chataya-type character in Volantis. That's how I pictured her in my mind when I read that she became the owner of a famous pleasure house. 

Thank you for offering this. I don't think the name similarities Saera and Serra are that much of a coincidence. And Steffon being sent to Volantis in search of Saera's line makes actual sense. And I think the descendants of a man who was the triarch would be documented. 

I took the long way to this (and was still unsure where I was headed with it). I didn't even think of the possibility that Aerys was looking for someone who was Targaryen by blood for Rhaegar. I was working from the similarities between the names Serra and Saera and their rather similar journeys. And Serra can still be a fake story put out by Illyrio to show Tyrion how much they both have in common with these whores they loved and were willing to give up a lot for. 

I think Illyrio created himself a proto-Saera. With all this new information, I'm not sure half the story he fed Tyrion is real.

[Jaak]

25 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Here's one of the quotes, though Alyssane reaches out to Saera while she's at Lys as well. Its set after Gael drowned herself in 99 AC.

Quote

Saera still lived, somewhere in Volantis (she had departed Lys some years before, an infamous woman but a wealthy one),

Quote

Jaehaerys already gives the answer on why Saera does not reply the letters and chooses to remain in Volantis: she doesn't need any of them.

But she somewhat does need them. Yes - she has the independence and wealth as a courtesan. Probably a vote. It might, however, do well to keep up relations, by politely explaining her reasons for staying in Volantis and assuring her mother that she and her children are doing tolerably well.

Quote

Her sons cannot be courtesans. Their options in Essos are limited to being a sellsword and die in the Disputed Lands or as a catamite. Hence, she sent them to Westeros at an age where they could be taken in as squires in a time where there was peace (unlike Essos)

Not quite. Their mother is a "wealthy" woman, and one of her sons had gold to distribute as bribes - as a boy of under 15. Investing their mother´s ill-gotten wealth into legitimate businesses, such as landowning, trade and pimping, was an option.

But returning to Westeros as squires was another option. Essos has more Valyrian swords around than Westeros, and less institutions of lordship to keep hold of them...

[Lord Varys]

It is not clear what she was in Lys. There are reports of her being in a pleasure garden. That has the vibe of her becoming a slave. Especially since Jaehaerys implies that the Lyseni might not be willing to allow her to leave should go and try to claim her.

But you can get out of that, like the Black Swan did. Saera would have been smart and calculating enough to do it.

[sweetsunray]

Now, I get it seems incredulous that Mad Aerys would seek a descendant of a Targaryen whore in Volantis over any other candidate with Valyrian blood. But it all depends on what he wanted in a bride for Rhaegar. And there are two motivations we can come up with combined that could opt Aerys to prefer such a descendant than a pious daughter of a great house.

First of all there is his grandfather Aegon's attempt to hatch dragons. Having dragons ensures keeping power over the IT, that you can enforce your laws onto lords who'd otherwise rebel. That's why Aegon wanted to hatch the eggs at Summerhal. It's also why Aegon and his children listened to the witch and married their grandchildren  (Aerys and Rhaella) to one another, though he himself was married to a Blackwood and incestuous marriages had gone out of date for his brothers, sisters and cousins, and he intended to marry his children off to non-Targs (Jaehaerys and Shaera went against his will).

Aerys and Rhaella weren't fond of each other at all. It was a forced marriage for the both of them, and I assume that the reason had been told to Aerys several times: to create a pure Targ line to hatch dragons again. He was after all also present during the tragedy of Summerhal and the birth of his son Rhaegar. 

Rhaegar's actual bride and wife Elia Martell has Targ blood we assume (from the marriage of Danaerys to the Prince of Dorne in the 2dn century AC), she's a daughter of a great house, and she's timid and pious and dutiful. If we She is all what a typical Westerosi mind would think of as a suitable bride, and any Targ of Daeron II to Aegon V generation would agree with that . And yet, Aerys behaves and makes comments as if she's impure and his granddaughter as smelling of impurity, of Dornish blood.

We know he preferred to seek as far as Volantis prior to settling for Elia Martell. It seems to me that it's not so much status that he was after or piety, but blood purity to help hatch dragons again. Of course, in theory a descendant of Saera would be as "mixed" as Elia Martell would have been, except that the Dornish themselves are not of Valyrian descent, but Volantis nobility claim they are. So, in his eyes, a Targ descendant with as much Valyrian descent as possible in them is preferable over a Targ descendent mixed with Dornish blood. And when it comes to blood purity, it doesn't matter anymore whether the great-great-great-grandmother was a whore.

Lys would be a valid alternative in the same sense, but the records only spell out the lineage for one of Saera's sons at the Great Council: the son of a triarch of Volantis. And Volantis is far far away. The second motivation is in how much you allow non-Targs access to political power. The Dance and the regency of Aegon III shows how non-Targs try to gain power over the Iron Throne: Hightowers and Peakes. Hightowers have the right looks, but they're not Targs, and their greediness made them war against Rhaenyra and Daemon who each had more Targ blood than Ceryse and her children had, even if her children were dragonriders. It cost them most of the dragons. Meanwhile Peake tries to use Aegon III as a puppet and bombard his daughter as queen. And while Viserys brings in Valyrian blood with the Rogares, the political infuence the Rogares tried to get and the financial upperhand over Braavos ended up near disastrous as well. Mad Aerys is paranoid of the great houses trying to get power, so it makes sense he would seek some descendant from a far away Volantis over any house in Westeros or any potential powerhouse in Lys who might be as powerful as the IB one year but enslaved the next.

 

[sweetsunray]

27 minutes ago, Jaak said:

But she somewhat does need them. Yes - she has the independence and wealth as a courtesan. Probably a vote. It might, however, do well to keep up relations, by politely explaining her reasons for staying in Volantis and assuring her mother that she and her children are doing tolerably well. 

Not quite. Their mother is a "wealthy" woman, and one of her sons had gold to distribute as bribes - as a boy of under 15. Investing their mother´s ill-gotten wealth into legitimate businesses, such as landowning, trade and pimping, was an option.

But returning to Westeros as squires was another option. Essos has more Valyrian swords around than Westeros, and less institutions of lordship to keep hold of them...

If her mother knows what address to write to, Saera already knows that her mother has agents to find out how she's doing. In any case, Saera felt her mother never cared much for her (having attention for all the others) while her father rejected her and sent her to the motherhouse. Saera isn't described as having diplomatic skills, nor recognize responsibility. What you describe may seem sound and wise behavior, but that is exactly what Alysanne makes clear to Jaehaerys from the get go: Saera is smart, but not wise.

Agreed, but if her sons have her fierce, wild Targ nature, they're not the ones to become respectable traders, but likely eager to enlist in free companies. Of course, it's not explicitly said that Saera sent her sons there. The triarch himself may have heard about the great council and sent his bastard son to put a claim forward, gifting his bastard son a dwarf elephant, rather than Saera sending them.

[Lord Varys]

Since Jaehaerys I finally spells it out for us that the triarchs of Volantis (i.e. the Old Blood of Volantis) could be dragonlords, too, if they could get their hands on a dragon, there is no reason whatsoever that Aerys II would have to look for a Targaryen descendant in Volantis or elsewhere to strengthen 'the blood of the dragon' in his line.

A Volantene noblewoman from an ancient family continuing the incestuous (or at least cousin) marriage thing in Volantis would suffice.

In fact, with this in mind Larra Rogare marrying Prince Viserys would have actually strengthened the blood of the dragon in the Targaryen line considering the Rogares are either themselves a cadet branch of a dragonlord house or at least descended from such people.

If Saera's sons inherited the Targaryen name then they might be still around in Old Volantis and Steffon may have heard of them. If not then they may have disappeared in obscurity or they may have been absorbed by one of the other noble families - although in that case I doubt anyone would want to talk about that much. Whores are not exactly seen as people of rank in Volantis - unlike, perhaps, certain whores in Lys. There are no courtesans that we know of in Volantis.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I was working from the similarities between the names Serra and Saera and their rather similar journeys. And Serra can still be a fake story put out by Illyrio to show Tyrion how much they both have in common with these whores they loved and were willing to give up a lot for. 

I think Illyrio created himself a proto-Saera. With all this new information, I'm not sure half the story he fed Tyrion is real.

Personally, I think Serra was real and that Illyrio had a child with her, and that Aegon is actually Illyrio's son, but it has nothing to do with Blackfyres. Serra is imo a descendant of Saera somehow. The statue of the handsome youth is Illyrio in his youth. We are told in F&B that Pentoshi are part Andal and part Valyrian, mixed with the stock of slaves and older peoples long forgotten. Thus the Valyrian features but with blue eyes is perfectly possible. Combine both, and the mention that one of Saera's sons looked like Jaehaerys when he was young, and you'd have an aDwD Aegon lookalike, but still a Targ descendant.

As for bastard... imo they all stem from some bastard. It's just that some believe they were born to ancestors in marriage, and others are known to have been born out of wedlock. For example I do think that Daeron II was indeed the son of Aemon the Dragonknight instead of Aegon IV. I actually think Daemon Blackfyre and Bittersteel only rebelled after they came into some evidence that convinced them that the rumors were correct after all (a witness for example), long after Aegon the Unworthy and Naerys were dead. Any "legitimate" Targ after Daeron II is thus imo descendendt of a bastard. This fits George's values imo: good rulers or leaders do not necessarily need to be born in wedlock.

I also think we have a Blackfyre in the currect books, but he's a Tyroshi sellsword imo, not Aegon.

I already thought so since a year and a half, and was hopeful to learn some more on Saera Targaryen, and what we get was more than I had hoped to get: that Alysanne, Jaehaerys and pretty much all of Westeros knew where Saera ended up fleeing, as well as her having at least 3 sons, also wildly known in Westeros for they were bold enough to make a claim during the Great Council. It does not confirm my opinion, but it lifts it from speculation on just one paragraph of the existence of Saera Targaryen and her whereabouts fitting the required regions to an actual valid theory that can still turn out to be a red herring or the actual answer.

[Jaak]

The next time Targaryens expressly had contact with Volantis was in 115. Daemon and Laena visiting. Had she lived, Saera would have been 48.

Did she live? Did Daemon and Laena feel appropriate to meet her?

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Jaak said:

The next time Targaryens expressly had contact with Volantis was in 115. Daemon and Laena visiting. Had she lived, Saera would have been 48.

Did she live? Did Daemon and Laena feel appropriate to meet her?

We can only guess. But I don't see a reason why she'd be dead at 48. As for Daemon and Laena visiting. Laena might not visit a pillow house, but Daemon did not seem to look down on prostitutes in his time as commander of the City Watch. And Laena might have met Saera Targaryen in a more respectable establishment of course.

I don't think we'll ever learn whether they did.

[sweetsunray]

Aside from those three sons, I think we should be on the lookout for potential daughters at least, either from Volantis or Lys. Any ideas to look into much closer?

[asongofheresy]

Although I do believe Aegon is Rhaegar's son I do think information about Saera is interesting - I will agree with @Lord Varys here that Mysaria could be Saera's daughter but I will admit Serra being her descendant was always something I speculated too - why not both? - because of their names' similarity before F&B though I had no proof of I was right or not.

Do you think names of Sarra/Serra Frey and Sara Snow has any significance? It is interesting Jacaerys' Stark wife was named Sara - and this couple is the reason for Pact of Ice and Fire where a Targaryen princess were to marry a Stark so as a R+L=A believer I value this information a lot. 

[sweetsunray]

Thanks @Jova Snow. I'll look into Mysaria some more (skipped through Dance this time - the idiots and the vicious in that history tend to get on my nerves, so I need to be in the right mood to stomach it, again).

I agree, that the potential presence of a daughter during the civil war (Dance of the Dragons) does not close the door on Illyrio's Serra being a descdendant of Saera. It's not as if George limited himself on the number of children and therefore descendants that may have been born over the past 200 years, when he had three sons make a claim during the Great Council.

The twins Sarra and Serra Frey imo serve to hint at the reader that characters called Serra, Sara(h) or Saera are mirror characters of one another. So, who does Sarah Snow mirror the most: she's bastard-born, but descendant of the main ruling branch in the North, and there's a tale of a man falling in love with her so much that he weds her even if that would get him into trouble. Especially the last part is a mirror of Illyrio's claim about Serra, and if so that adds weight to the idea that Illyrio's Serra is a bastard descendant of the ruling branch of Targs, Saera being one of the candidates for ancestor