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US Politics: A Feast for Crows

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54 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I appreciate your point.  But we work in a system that values compromise and consensus.  When both sides see their opponents as “evil” and refuse to talk to them but for exchanging “Fuck offs” there is no where to go but down.

Have you been sleeping the past ten years? The GOP has trampled upon that system that needs compromise and consensus. You can't haggle with extremists. Every compromise requires some middle ground, that is simply not there.
I don'T mean to mock you or anything, but how would compromise with the current GOP?

That only half of the Mexicans are murdering rapists? Will you build half wall at the Mexican border? Or one that has only half the height envisioned by them?
Did Twitler commit treason? If so, is it really that bad?

I mean really, how do you suppose a compromise with those people is going to work? Those people attack the very institutions of your system, you really can't afford to compromise those. (does that qualify as a pun?)

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45 minutes ago, mormont said:

But when one side not only refuses to respond to civility from the other, but actively takes advantage of it while refusing to reciprocate, it's folly to ask that the second side continues to be civil regardless.

Talk to me about civility when any Republican in congress sees it as anything more than a useful tool to use against Democrats. In the meantime, do you know what is more important than civility? What gives civility meaning? What civility is supposed to actually communicate? Respect. And at present, the Republicans have no respect, nothing but contempt in fact, for Democrats or indeed the institutions of civil society in the US. In fact, such contempt is the glue holding their entire party together. While that is true, your repeated quest for civility will not magically produce the outcome you want. It can't. 

Talk about projection, holy hell. You're claiming Republicans have no respect, only contempt for Democrats, while you guys are here claiming there's no point in talking to them, except loudly and repeatedly telling them to FUCK OFF.

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5 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

Talk about projection, holy hell. You're claiming Republicans have no respect, only contempt for Democrats, while you guys are here claiming there's no point in talking to them, except loudly and repeatedly telling them to FUCK OFF.

Yup. And the reason the latter is the point being made is because of the former. Obama tried to talk to them. They told him to fuck off, specifically stated their goal was to make him a one term President and refused to work with him on any piece of his agenda even when he was willing to make significant compromises for Republican priorities. The current gridlock and the deterioration of respect isn't recent, just accelerating. 

That being said, there are some Republicans who can be reasoned with on certain things and Democrats, as they have done, should continue to work with them. Mike Lee and Bob Corker on Yemen/Saudia Arabia, Tillis and Flake on Mueller, Lee on Criminal Justice Reform, Burr on Senate Intelligence Committee, etc. At least in the Senate, there are some Republicans and Democrats who can work together and should work together. The House is a completely different story.

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32 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I’m not asking any one side to disarm unilaterally.  I’m pointing out that the ongoing lack of civility is taking the US to bad places.  

If I see a Trump supporter or Republican in this thread endorsing their bellicose bullshit I’d say exactly the same thing to them.

My point is that you're talking about a symptom, not the disease. You can say what you like to Republicans: they will dismiss it out of hand. 

7 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

Talk about projection, holy hell. 

OK. Projection is when someone who is, for example, crooked and corrupt accuses others of the same flaw. The current President of the United States is a great example. Another example would be someone who reads a valid critique of the current Republican party and decides to respond by saying 'I know you are but what am I?'

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18 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Have you been sleeping the past ten years? The GOP has trampled upon that system that needs compromise and consensus. You can't haggle with extremists. Every compromise requires some middle ground, that is simply not there.
I don'T mean to mock you or anything, but how would compromise with the current GOP?

That only half of the Mexicans are murdering rapists? Will you build half wall at the Mexican border? Or one that has only half the height envisioned by them?
Did Twitler commit treason? If so, is it really that bad?

I mean really, how do you suppose a compromise with those people is going to work? Those people attack the very institutions of your system, you really can't afford to compromise those. (does that qualify as a pun?)

A first step would be to stop all this nonsense pretense about Trump being Hitler reincarnate, and listen to what he is actually saying. It would be the easiest thing in the world to compromise with him. Have you missed the proposed criminal justice reform bill that he is fully in support of? That's a good start, do more of that. During the announcement Trump said something along the lines of "Did I hear the word bipartisan? I like that word." You can work with him. Continuing to ease up on the drug war is a good direction. Offer him funding for the Wall in exchange for more legalization and decriminalization. You think he would refuse? You really think Trump wouldn't compromise if he gets his wall in return? Of course he would.

But instead of working towards that, we have people calling for more polarization, unwillingness to work with the other side, pushing for uncivility, calling those that are trying to find common ground spineless cowards, and so on. It's sad, more than anything else.

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17 minutes ago, mormont said:

My point is that you're talking about a symptom, not the disease. You can say what you like to Republicans: they will dismiss it out of hand. 

Yes.  But if we are at the point where talking is pointless but to hurl invective, what follows?  

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This is the guy the orange nazi thinks should be Sec of Labor, a guy who got a well-known criminal pedophile (and buddy of the orange nazi's) basically a non-sentence in an FBI  case:

Quote

When he was a US attorney in Florida, Labor Secretary Alexander Acosta gave accused pedophile Jeffrey Epstein the "deal of a lifetime," the Miami Herald reported Wednesday.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article214210674.html

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article221897990.html

Edited by Zorral

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51 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Have you been sleeping the past ten years? The GOP has trampled upon that system that needs compromise and consensus. You can't haggle with extremists. Every compromise requires some middle ground, that is simply not there.
I don'T mean to mock you or anything, but how would compromise with the current GOP?

That only half of the Mexicans are murdering rapists? Will you build half wall at the Mexican border? Or one that has only half the height envisioned by them?
Did Twitler commit treason? If so, is it really that bad?

I mean really, how do you suppose a compromise with those people is going to work? Those people attack the very institutions of your system, you really can't afford to compromise those. (does that qualify as a pun?)

Look, I understand your point.  My point is that if talking is pointless but to hurl invective (exactly what I said to Mormont) we have a serious problem that is only going to get worse.  

I really don’t see blood in the streets as a good option, ever.  

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15 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

A first step would be to stop all this nonsense pretense about Trump being Hitler reincarnate, and listen to what he is actually saying. It would be the easiest thing in the world to compromise with him. Have you missed the proposed criminal justice reform bill that he is fully in support of? That's a good start, do more of that. During the announcement Trump said something along the lines of "Did I hear the word bipartisan? I like that word." You can work with him. Continuing to ease up on the drug war is a good direction. Offer him funding for the Wall in exchange for more legalization and decriminalization. You think he would refuse? You really think Trump wouldn't compromise if he gets his wall in return? Of course he would.

But instead of working towards that, we have people calling for more polarization, unwillingness to work with the other side, pushing for uncivility, calling those that are trying to find common ground spineless cowards, and so on. It's sad, more than anything else.

Trump does that to score political points.  It is a negotiation tactic with him.  He says the words and means nothing by them.  How do we know, look at his actions, not what he says (well what he says is pretty awful too).

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5 hours ago, SweetPea said:

What's so controversial about that? He said oceans are very small "when you're talking about an atmosphere"And he is right. Huge amounts of sand are regularly carried over from sandstorms in Africa to other continents.

He is still incredibly ignorant about climate change so I'm not going to defend him about that, but there is nothing wrong with what he said about the oceans here.

Thanks for the laugh, even if I did snort coffee all over the table reading your post, ‘The oceans are very small when you are talking about an atmosphere’! Lulz! Just 70% of the atmosphere covers oceans, teeny tiny, right?

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Michael Cohen, Trump’s former lawyer, pleads guilty to lying to Congress

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/michael-cohen-trumps-former-lawyer-pleads-guilty-to-lying-to-congress/2018/11/29/5fac986a-f3e0-11e8-bc79-68604ed88993_story.html?utm_term=.e3d2dcfc2d06

 

Quote

Michael Cohen, a former personal attorney to President Trump, pleaded guilty Thursday to one count of making false statements to Congress about a Moscow real estate project Trump pursued during the months he was running for president.

 

Edited by Martell Spy

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15 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Look, I understand your point.  My point is that if talking is pointless but to hurl invective (exactly what I said to Mormont) we have a serious problem that is only going to get worse.  

I really don’t see blood in the streets as a good option, ever.  

But you DO have a very serious problem and all sign points to it getting worse. 

You repeat that you dont want to see blood in the streets, but the blood has allready been shed and not by people on the left or antifa, but by facist and republicans and cops, etc. So maybe you are afraid of seen white blood on the streets?.

How do you propose to have a conversation with the other side (republicans, trump voters) when they dont even see you as a human worth listening too, and you could say that "the other side" doesnt see republicans an facist as human either, but that would be missing the point, cuz its not the "other side" that hates everithing that isnt white or straight or a man or american etc. 

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40 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

During the announcement Trump said something along the lines of "Did I hear the word bipartisan? I like that word." You can work with him.

:lol: Yes, Trump should always be taken at his word. His reputation for speaking in good faith is absolutely unquestioned.

29 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Yes.  But if we are at the point where talking is pointless but to hurl invective, what follows?  

As noted by someone else, if your opponent refuses to engage in dialogue, what follows is that you have to defeat them at the polls.

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54 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

A first step would be to stop all this nonsense pretense about Trump being Hitler reincarnate, and listen to what he is actually saying.

Oh, FFS. I know, you are trolling, but I will play along. I'll stop pretending that Trump is dangerous fascist, when he stops like acting one. Is that a good compromise? You mean, the moment he called Mexicans rapsits and murderers, or when he refers to reporters as enemy of the people, or when he wants to lock up political opponents. Or with the enablers in the GOP defies norms and rules? The list does not claim to be complete by any means, so I am sure a few fellow boarders can expand the list as they please.

58 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

During the announcement Trump said something along the lines of "Did I hear the word bipartisan? I like that word."

Rule of law, impeachment, I like those words even better. Maybe if there's a shred of decency in the GOP left, there's a bipartisan way to work on those projects? Otherwise, I prefer to prefer to judge Donnie Dipshit by his actions.

1 hour ago, SweetPea said:

You can work with him. Continuing to ease up on the drug war is a good direction. Offer him funding for the Wall in exchange for more legalization and decriminalization.

Nope. not one inch. Besides, wasn't Mexico gonna pay for that wall anyway? What happened to that. Either way, you know that silly wall of his is actually quite expensive, so where do you think that money would come from. The only assistance I would give Donnie, if he was standing on the Brooklyn Bridge and just needed a little push into the right direction. Again, not giving an inch to fascists.

1 hour ago, SweetPea said:

But instead of working towards that, we have people calling for more polarization, unwillingness to work with the other side, pushing for uncivility, calling those that are trying to find common ground spineless cowards, and so on. It's sad, more than anything else.

HAHAHAHAHHA. Obama tried for 8 years, but now that the GOP has the Oval Office, the other side should be willing to compromise on truely dreadful policies for the sake of civility? No way.

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39 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Thanks for the laugh, even if I did snort coffee all over the table reading your post, ‘The oceans are very small when you are talking about an atmosphere’! Lulz! Just 70% of the atmosphere covers oceans, teeny tiny, right?

Why are you intentionally being a fool? Or do you actually believe that oceans are magical barriers that no air currents can cross?

15 minutes ago, mormont said:

:lol: Yes, Trump should always be taken at his word. His reputation for speaking in good faith is absolutely unquestioned.

Good job disregarding my entire post to latch onto something you can nitpick.  Sigh... 

Look, the case I mentioned shows that he can work together with the Democrats. Was his statement about liking bipartisanship honest? Personally, I think it was, but if it wasn't, it's something you can call him out on. There is absolutely no reason to not try and work with him.

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Just now, SweetPea said:

Look, the case I mentioned shows that he can work together with the Democrats. Was his statement about liking bipartisanship honest? Personally, I think it was, but if it wasn't, it's something you can call him out on. There is absolutely no reason to not try and work with him.

Sure, maybe if we were talking about someone who shows sign of working with you or others in good faith; however, Trump has shown no signs of that thus far, even with his fellow Republicans in Congress. Maybe he can work with Democrats, but not reliably. That's not something Democrats should count on. It's not what their constituents want. It's not what will help them win future elections. The Democratic base is tired of timid Congressional Democrats being lulled into a false security with Republican calls of compromise only for Trump and Republicans to repeatedly fail to return the courtesy.

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3 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Oh, FFS. I know, you are trolling, but I will play along. I'll stop pretending that Trump is dangerous fascist, when he stops like acting one. Is that a good compromise? You mean, the moment he called Mexicans rapsits and murderers, or when he refers to reporters as enemy of the people, or when he wants to lock up political opponents. Or with the enablers in the GOP defies norms and rules? The list does not claim to be complete by any means, so I am sure a few fellow boarders can expand the list as they please.

Rule of law, impeachment, I like those words even better. Maybe if there's a shred of decency in the GOP left, there's a bipartisan way to work on those projects? Otherwise, I prefer to prefer to judge Donnie Dipshit by his actions.

Nope. not one inch. Besides, wasn't Mexico gonna pay for that wall anyway? What happened to that. Either way, you know that silly wall of his is actually quite expensive, so where do you think that money would come from. The only assistance I would give Donnie, if he was standing on the Brooklyn Bridge and just needed a little push into the right direction. Again, not giving an inch to fascists.

HAHAHAHAHHA. Obama tried for 8 years, but now that the GOP has the Oval Office, the other side should be willing to compromise on truely dreadful policies for the sake of civility? No way.

Here's a question for you, would you prefer if the proposed criminal justice reform bill that was announced earlier this month was scrapped? Would it be better if people continued to be imprisoned for long years for weed posession, because you're such a moral person that you don't give an inch to fascists? If yes, you're not only a bigger fool than I thought, you're also a shitty person. Go visit a guy in prison and tell him "Ooops, you can rot in here for five more years, because we wouldn't want to compromise with evil fascists, would we?"

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6 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

Here's a question for you, would you prefer if the proposed criminal justice reform bill that was announced earlier this month was scrapped? Would it be better if people continued to be imprisoned for long years for weed posession, because you're such a moral person that you don't give an inch to fascists? If yes, you're not only a bigger fool than I thought, you're also a shitty person. Go visit a guy in prison and tell him "Ooops, you can rot in here for five more years, because we wouldn't want to compromise with evil fascists, would we?"

How do we know that Trump is acting on good faith?  How many times do you trust a person to follow through on an action before you no longer can trust said person?

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Just now, SweetPea said:

Here's a question for you, would you prefer if the proposed criminal justice reform bill that was announced earlier this month was scrapped? Would it be better if people continued to be imprisoned for long years for weed posession, because you're such a moral person that you don't give an inch to fascists? If yes, you're not only a bigger fool than I thought, you're also a shitty person. Go visit a guy in prison and tell him "Ooops, you can rot in here for five more years, because we wouldn't want to compromise with evil fascists, would we?"

Oh, please. Please stop pretending that Donnie Dipshit, or you for that matter give two shits about some stoner in prison - other than trying to use them as stick to beat people you disagree with. If he really wanted to pass criminal justice reform, he could pass it with a Democratic majority without any strings (or walls) attached to it, or he could'Ve produced a bill for the GOP congress to pass for two years. So why didn't he try to do that? So please, spare me your little faux outrage here. That lil stunt might work on your 9chan folks.

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17 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

Here's a question for you, would you prefer if the proposed criminal justice reform bill that was announced earlier this month was scrapped? Would it be better if people continued to be imprisoned for long years for weed posession, because you're such a moral person that you don't give an inch to fascists? If yes, you're not only a bigger fool than I thought, you're also a shitty person. Go visit a guy in prison and tell him "Ooops, you can rot in here for five more years, because we wouldn't want to compromise with evil fascists, would we?"

To be really clear, the federal reform does almost nothing to alleviate the issue, as the vast majority of people are in state prison - especially on those drug charges. The bill itself was led by people in the Senate first and foremost, and trump was told to sign it reluctantly. 

It's perfectly fine to work with Republicans. What isn't fine is to, say, compromise on morally horrible issues to get something small in return. If Republicans want to get on board with broadly popular things - voting rights, security of health, background checks, campaign finance reform - awesome. But it won't be in exchange for a border wall or more ICE funding. They can take it or they can just do nothing. 

The dems at this point have no reason to negotiate. There is no reason to expect it in good faith, there is no value to their election value, and Trump has no leverage. It only benefits trump to negotiate, and things which benefit trump should be considered only in the most egregious circumstance. 

The dems job should be at this point to focus on doing the most political damage to trump possible with the goal of getting his party out of office. There is basically nothing more valuable that they could get instead. So yes, if federal prison reform falls by the wayside, that sucks but so be it. We cannot as a planet afford trump in office for 6 more years. 

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