Brandon the Shipwright and Brandon the Burner

[Bael's Bastard]

19 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Just saw this haha yea there are a lot of things from the main books i've been basing my work off of, specifically the first three books. George has since changed or made irrelevant many things. Im most surprised by the lack of anyyy thing interesting being discovered at the Night Fort by Alysanne. 

I feel like with Brandon, as we have discussed before. He more than likely lived closer to Aegon than 1000s of years. Manderly who is of the North i would assume to know better than a Maester in the south. Even if the crypts are all bungled in their order. Plus, the Starks not having strength at sea that long makes Theon attacking Andalos rather hard, and leaves them open to attack from just about every one from Sea. Also interferes with the War Across the Water with House Arryn. 

I don't think the Manderlys are necessarily wrong, but we must also remember that:

1. The Manderlys are originally from the south, are relatively recent arrivals to the North, and might not have been in the North yet in the days of Brandon the Shipwright and Brandon the Burner.

2. Manderly's use of "hundreds of years" doesn't automatically eliminate the possibility that he was referring to over a thousand years.

Not sure what Theon has to do with it, as he obviously would have lived before the Brandons, having defeated an attempted Andal invasion and raised his own fleet to attack the Andals while they still had a notable presence in Andalos.

[AlaskanSandman]

21 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I don't think the Manderlys are necessarily wrong, but we must also remember that:

1. The Manderlys are originally from the south, are relatively recent arrivals to the North, and might not have been in the North yet in the days of Brandon the Shipwright and Brandon the Burner.

2. Manderly's use of "hundreds of years" doesn't automatically eliminate the possibility that he was referring to over a thousand years.

Not sure what Theon has to do with it, as he obviously would have lived before the Brandons, having defeated an attempted Andal invasion and raised his own fleet to attack the Andals while they still had a notable presence in Andalos.

They date them selves to the North much older than they are dating Brandon the Burner. Seems pretty clear to me just based on Manderly pov and how he see's it. 

Hundreds and Over a Thousand as being the same seems like a reach to me. Using thousand as a rough marker to something 8 or 900 years ago makes sense. But hundreds (typically not termed for something as high as 8 to 900 as people tend to round over or under. That's quite some rounding).

Um. Because the Maester is dating Brandon to Thousands of years ago, though most of us feel the Andals only invaded 2000 years ago with Theon being roughly around that time to 1700 years ago. But if we want to except true history or Catelyn then sure. I tend to agree with Denestan more. (Edit) So the War Across the Water and defense of Bear Island could not have happened if this is the case. So again i tend to agree with Denestan and the other clues. I have done  a time line of the North before that goes over this and all known dates. To even go with the mark that True History goes with instead of Denestan puts huge gaps between events that no longer sync northern events with events in the south so much. As i tried to show by the Iron Born, Reach, Old Town, Vale, and River Lands in that thread. The Andals at anything over 2k years ago doesn't add up imo based on all the known clues i could find. 

[Bael's Bastard]

1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

They date them selves to the North much older than they are dating Brandon the Burner. Seems pretty clear to me just based on Manderly pov and how he see's it.

The statements by the Manderlys don't indicate one way or the other whether they claim to have come before or after the Brandons.

But the Manderlys claim to have been in the North since, at most, 1000 year before the Conquest, while Archmaester Gyldayn claims Brandon the Shipwright and Brandon the Burner lived thousands of years before the Conquest.

Even the most conservative interpretation of Gyldayn's claim would place the Brandons before the earliest claimed date for the arrival of the Manderlys.

15 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Hundreds and Over a Thousand as being the same seems like a reach to me. Using thousand as a rough marker to something 8 or 900 years ago makes sense. But hundreds (typically not termed for something as high as 8 to 900 as people tend to round over or under. That's quite some rounding).

Maester Lewin similarly uses "hundreds of years" to describe the wars of the invading Andals (AGOT: Bran VII).

"Hundreds of years" is used to describe the tops of the keeps and towers of Winterfell (ACOK: Bran VII).

Qyburn describes the men of the Citadel as having opened the bodies of the dead, to study the nature of life, for "hundreds of years" (AFFC: Cersei II).

The Targaryens are described as having married brother to sister for "hundreds of years" (TSS).

The use of "hundreds of years" and "centuries" in the series is not inherently as narrow as referring to a thousand years or less.

44 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Um. Because the Maester is dating Brandon to Thousands of years ago, though most of us feel the Andals only invaded 2000 years ago with Theon being roughly around that time to 1700 years ago. But if we want to except true history or Catelyn then sure. I tend to agree with Denestan more.

I am referring to these statements, which seem to indicate that you interpret Gyldayn's claim to somehow mean that Theon etc. would then have been after the Brandons, sans ships:

Quote

Plus, the Starks not having strength at sea that long makes Theon attacking Andalos rather hard, and leaves them open to attack from just about every one from Sea. Also interferes with the War Across the Water with House Arryn. 

The Maester pushing back the Brandons wouldn't have any effect on Theon clearly being before them, and clearly having raised a fleet of his own to attack the Andals in a still relatively populated Andalos.
 

[AlaskanSandman]

19 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The statements by the Manderlys don't indicate one way or the other whether they claim to have come before or after the Brandons.

But the Manderlys claim to have been in the North since, at most, 1000 year before the Conquest, while Archmaester Gyldayn claims Brandon the Shipwright and Brandon the Burner lived thousands of years before the Conquest.

Even the most conservative interpretation of Gyldayn's claim would place the Brandons before the earliest claimed date for the arrival of the Manderlys.

Maester Lewin similarly uses "hundreds of years" to describe the wars of the invading Andals (AGOT: Bran VII).

"Hundreds of years" is used to describe the tops of the keeps and towers of Winterfell (ACOK: Bran VII).

Qyburn describes the men of the Citadel as having opened the bodies of the dead, to study the nature of life, for "hundreds of years" (AFFC: Cersei II).

The Targaryens are described as having married brother to sister for "hundreds of years" (TSS).

The use of "hundreds of years" and "centuries" in the series is not inherently as narrow as referring to a thousand years or less.

I am referring to these statements, which seem to indicate that you interpret Gyldayn's claim to somehow mean that Theon etc. would then have been after the Brandons, sans ships:

The Maester pushing back the Brandons wouldn't have any effect on Theon clearly being before them, and clearly having raised a fleet of his own to attack the Andals in a still relatively populated Andalos.
 

..Manderly says they have not had strength at sea for hundreds of years since Brandon the Burner, and also date them selves to 1000 years before the conquest. They clearly seem to understand the usage of the terms they are using and clearly date them selves to being in the North before Brandon the Burner. A Maester can differ all they want, that though, is what the Manderly's say. 

None of those examples though have a contradicting date pegging them at any thing other than the hundreds of years as stated. Cersei speaking about Targaryens and incest is spot on to what she knows of their time in Westeros. She's speaking on House Targaryen, not Valyria. What contradicts Qyburn putting that at thousands of years ago when he says hundreds? Like wise for what you quote of Luwin? Using one source who says one time and another source that says another time is completely irrelevant to the point about the Manderly's and their dating. Does Luwen contradict him self? Or is it just merely some one else contradicting him? Your going to confuse your self imo. You cant create a time line trying to fit every ones dating as right. 

Again. I created a time line showing all known events and who is giving those dating. So to better get an idea you have to group those that agree and those that dont' into different groups. Obviously Yandel is basing work off Glydane and other maesters he agrees with. Manderly's may not agree with them. They may agree more with Maester Denestan. Catelynn seems to disagree with all of them placing the Alyssa Arryn well before any known Maester dating. 

Im not debating the fact that Glydane believes Brandon was "thousands of years ago". Glydane likely believes the Andals came long before that as he seems to be in the same camp as Yandel. 

Im debating whether he is right based off other peoples datings. One of which is the Manderlys who clearly date them selves to being in the North before Brandon burned the ships.

 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

30 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

 

Further it doesn't seem logical to me that the North was defenseless for thousands of years. As i pointed out earlier, the North was already being hit for slaves. There is no reason to assume this would lessen with time as Valyria's need rises and their strength grows. Thousands of Years with out a naval fleet leaves them open to massive plundering from House Hoare, the Free Cities, The Step Stones, Slavers from Volantis, Valyria and Ib. 

If the North has another fleet from another house as lord varys proposed earlier. Then Robb could have called on them instead of needing the Manderly's to build a fleet. Boltons for example. If they had one, Roose is sitting right there with Robb. Robb could have asked him, not that Roose would commit them all even if agreeing to, but still. The North seems defenseless now, and with rebellion against the kingdom, your not going to get their aid as you would normally since Aegon's conquest. Before Aegon though, the North was on it's own and couldn't afford to go 2k years with out naval ships. imo

Edit- Imagine how hard Skagos would be hit and raided

[AlaskanSandman]

Spoiler

 

*All times likely rough time frames and not exact dates.

**Marked in Green is established from work of Maester Denestan

**Marked in Blue based off True History and History of the Iron Born by Maester Haereg

**Marked in Purple based off Caitlyn Stark.

***Marked generally in Red means event has alternate date given for it.

****Marked in Black means no alternate dates are given thus far.

*****Too much to type in to try to give estimates for the War Across the Waters, especially with uncertainty of House Arryn between first men to Andals.  Did the war begin with FM Arryns or Andal Arryns? Artys is pinned to 1000Bc by way of his crown, 700 years after Alyssa Arryn at least. So feel free to let me know your thoughts.

 

6700Bc- Bracken Blackwood Usurpation? According to True History

 6200Bc- Bracken-Blackwood usurpation? According to Hoster Blackwood

            - Wolf’s Den created by King Jon Stark to defend against raiders and slavers possibly from Valyria and Volantis.

            - King Jon’s son, King Rickard Stark defeats the Marsh Kings winning the Neck.

            -Last Red King Rogar the Huntsman bends his Knee to Starks even as the Andal ships were setting sail. (Time of King Theon the Hungry Wolf?)

 

5700Bc- Time of Alyssa Arryn according to Caitlyn Stark.

 

4700Bc- Andals arrive on Iron Isles ending House Grey Iron, Start of Hoare rule?

 

 

 

 

 

4700Bc- Bracken Blackwood Usurpation? According to True History

 4200Bc- Bracken-Blackwood usurpation? According to Hoster Blackwood

 

- Wolf’s Den created by King Jon Stark to defend against raiders and slavers possibly from Valyria and Volantis. Before the coming of the Andals.

            - King Jon’s son, King Rickard Stark defeats the Marsh Kings winning the Neck.

            -Last Red King Rogar the Huntsman bends his Knee to Starks even as the Andal ships were setting sail. (Time of King Theon the Hungry Wolf vs Harrag Hoare and son Ravos the Raper?)

 

3700Bc- Time of Alyssa Arryn according to True History?

               Bear Island given to House Mormont by Rodrik Stark after Old Kracken Loron Greyjoy dies.

               Time of the Last Kings Moot according to Maester Haereg’s History of the Iron Born, Start of GreyIron rule?

 

 

2700Bc- King’s Beyond the Wall, Gendal and Gorne invade Westeros.

               Bracken Blackwood Usurpation? According to True History

                Andals arrive on Iron Isles ending House Grey Iron, Start of Hoare rule?

 2200Bc- Bracken-Blackwood usurpation? According to Hoster Blackwood

               

 

             - Wolf’s Den created by King Jon Stark to defend against raiders and slavers possibly from Valyria and Volantis. Before the coming of the Andals.

            - King Jon’s son, King Rickard Stark defeats the Marsh Kings winning the Neck.

            -Last Red King Rogar the Huntsman bends his Knee to Starks even as the Andal ships were setting sail. (Time of King Theon the Hungry Wolf vs Harrag Hoare and son Ravos the Raper?)

1700Bc- Inner Walls of Winterfell raised at this time, though some parts appear older. Indicating this is final form since last big attack.

                Time of Alyssa Arryn according to Maester Denestan

               Bear Island given to House Mormont by Rodrik Stark after Old Kracken Loron Greyjoy dies.

                Time of Last Kings Moot according to Maester Denestan, Start of GreyIron rule?

                The Horned Lord passed the Wall with Magic with Bael following hundreds of years later?

                 Start of War across the Waters- Starks vs Arryns

                Start of House Justman as Andals reach Riverlands possibly cutting in through the river.?

1536Bc- Scouring of Lorath no more recent then this time. Death of Andal King Qarlon the Great.

1436Bc- Valyrian religious sect, Boash take Lorath. 

               End of House Justman around this time, ended by Qhored Hoare? Last Kings Moot sometime shortly after Qhored? 

               Old Town sacked 3 times that century by Samwell Dayne, Qhored Hoare and Gyles I Gardener?

1300Bc- Manderly’s Receive Wolf’s Den (according to Wylla Manderly)

1000Bc- Starry Sept in Old Town built after Andals reach and conquer Old Town.

               Glass Candles brought to Old Town from Valyria.

               Falcon Crown first worn by Ser Artys Arryn forged.

950Bc- Start of Rhoynish Wars with Valyria

789Bc- Manderly’s receive Wolf’s Den (according to Rohanne Webber)

700Bc- End of Rhoynish Wars, Nymeria’s 10,000 ships.

             House Karstark formed

             -Last Red King Rogar the Huntsman bends his Knee to Starks even as the Andal ships were setting sail. (Time of King Theon the Hungry Wolf?)   (According to Theon Greyjoy)

             The Horned Lord passed the Wall with Magic with Bael following hundreds of years later?

             Andals arrive on Iron Isles ending House Grey Iron, Start of Hoare rule? Based off Denestan's work

             End of War across the Waters- Starks vs Arryns

600Bc- House Manderly Receive Wolf’s Den (According to Godric Borrel) 

400Bc- Osric Stark L.C. of the Night’s Watch.

300Bc- Hardhome burned down

       Valyria take dragonstone

       Commanders of Nightfort and Snowgate go to war, killing L.C. who later got involved.

      House Frey take the Neck.

200Bc- Gates at the Wall sealed.

                      Valyrian blades begin to enter Westeros

112Bc- Aenar the Exile flee’s to Dragonstone

100Bc- The Doom of Valyria

0-   Aegon’s Conquest

226ac- Raymund Redbeard vs Lord Willam Stark

300Ac- Mance Rayder.

 

To me it's clear that Yandel sides with the dates in Blue and Black as he seems to side with True History. As such, he likely believes the Andals came 4k years ago with Theon being closer to 4k years ago rather than 2k years ago when they seem to be dating Brandon the Burner. As such, they would date the War across the Waters as beginning around 4k years ago and ending roughly 3k years ago, with Manderly's likely receiving it (Unsure where the Maesters date this as all mentioned dates come from non Maesters). It May be that the maesters still date the Manderly's under 2k years ago. Either way. The North still had ships in this time line to fight that war. I bet they also place Bear Island going to the Mormonts before Brandon the Burner too. This again though, is just one proposed time line by our author and his in world characters. Denestan halves it all but seems to not be favored by Yandel. 

 

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

14 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

  Hide contents

 

*All times likely rough time frames and not exact dates.

**Marked in Green is established from work of Maester Denestan

**Marked in Blue based off True History and History of the Iron Born by Maester Haereg

**Marked in Purple based off Caitlyn Stark.

***Marked generally in Red means event has alternate date given for it.

****Marked in Black means no alternate dates are given thus far.

*****Too much to type in to try to give estimates for the War Across the Waters, especially with uncertainty of House Arryn between first men to Andals.  Did the war begin with FM Arryns or Andal Arryns? Artys is pinned to 1000Bc by way of his crown, 700 years after Alyssa Arryn at least. So feel free to let me know your thoughts.

 

6700Bc- Bracken Blackwood Usurpation? According to True History

 6200Bc- Bracken-Blackwood usurpation? According to Hoster Blackwood

            - Wolf’s Den created by King Jon Stark to defend against raiders and slavers possibly from Valyria and Volantis.

            - King Jon’s son, King Rickard Stark defeats the Marsh Kings winning the Neck.

            -Last Red King Rogar the Huntsman bends his Knee to Starks even as the Andal ships were setting sail. (Time of King Theon the Hungry Wolf?)

 

5700Bc- Time of Alyssa Arryn according to Caitlyn Stark.

 

4700Bc- Andals arrive on Iron Isles ending House Grey Iron, Start of Hoare rule?

 

 

 

 

 

4700Bc- Bracken Blackwood Usurpation? According to True History

 4200Bc- Bracken-Blackwood usurpation? According to Hoster Blackwood

 

- Wolf’s Den created by King Jon Stark to defend against raiders and slavers possibly from Valyria and Volantis. Before the coming of the Andals.

            - King Jon’s son, King Rickard Stark defeats the Marsh Kings winning the Neck.

            -Last Red King Rogar the Huntsman bends his Knee to Starks even as the Andal ships were setting sail. (Time of King Theon the Hungry Wolf vs Harrag Hoare and son Ravos the Raper?)

 

3700Bc- Time of Alyssa Arryn according to True History?

               Bear Island given to House Mormont by Rodrik Stark after Old Kracken Loron Greyjoy dies.

               Time of the Last Kings Moot according to Maester Haereg’s History of the Iron Born, Start of GreyIron rule?

 

 

2700Bc- King’s Beyond the Wall, Gendal and Gorne invade Westeros.

               Bracken Blackwood Usurpation? According to True History

                Andals arrive on Iron Isles ending House Grey Iron, Start of Hoare rule?

 2200Bc- Bracken-Blackwood usurpation? According to Hoster Blackwood

               

 

             - Wolf’s Den created by King Jon Stark to defend against raiders and slavers possibly from Valyria and Volantis. Before the coming of the Andals.

            - King Jon’s son, King Rickard Stark defeats the Marsh Kings winning the Neck.

            -Last Red King Rogar the Huntsman bends his Knee to Starks even as the Andal ships were setting sail. (Time of King Theon the Hungry Wolf vs Harrag Hoare and son Ravos the Raper?)

1700Bc- Inner Walls of Winterfell raised at this time, though some parts appear older. Indicating this is final form since last big attack.

                Time of Alyssa Arryn according to Maester Denestan

               Bear Island given to House Mormont by Rodrik Stark after Old Kracken Loron Greyjoy dies.

                Time of Last Kings Moot according to Maester Denestan, Start of GreyIron rule?

                The Horned Lord passed the Wall with Magic with Bael following hundreds of years later?

                 Start of War across the Waters- Starks vs Arryns

                Start of House Justman as Andals reach Riverlands possibly cutting in through the river.?

1536Bc- Scouring of Lorath no more recent then this time. Death of Andal King Qarlon the Great.

1436Bc- Valyrian religious sect, Boash take Lorath. 

               End of House Justman around this time, ended by Qhored Hoare? Last Kings Moot sometime shortly after Qhored? 

               Old Town sacked 3 times that century by Samwell Dayne, Qhored Hoare and Gyles I Gardener?

1300Bc- Manderly’s Receive Wolf’s Den (according to Wylla Manderly)

1000Bc- Starry Sept in Old Town built after Andals reach and conquer Old Town.

               Glass Candles brought to Old Town from Valyria.

               Falcon Crown first worn by Ser Artys Arryn forged.

950Bc- Start of Rhoynish Wars with Valyria

789Bc- Manderly’s receive Wolf’s Den (according to Rohanne Webber)

700Bc- End of Rhoynish Wars, Nymeria’s 10,000 ships.

             House Karstark formed

             -Last Red King Rogar the Huntsman bends his Knee to Starks even as the Andal ships were setting sail. (Time of King Theon the Hungry Wolf?)   (According to Theon Greyjoy)

             The Horned Lord passed the Wall with Magic with Bael following hundreds of years later?

             Andals arrive on Iron Isles ending House Grey Iron, Start of Hoare rule? Based off Denestan's work

             End of War across the Waters- Starks vs Arryns

600Bc- House Manderly Receive Wolf’s Den (According to Godric Borrel) 

400Bc- Osric Stark L.C. of the Night’s Watch.

300Bc- Hardhome burned down

       Valyria take dragonstone

       Commanders of Nightfort and Snowgate go to war, killing L.C. who later got involved.

      House Frey take the Neck.

200Bc- Gates at the Wall sealed.

                      Valyrian blades begin to enter Westeros

112Bc- Aenar the Exile flee’s to Dragonstone

100Bc- The Doom of Valyria

0-   Aegon’s Conquest

226ac- Raymund Redbeard vs Lord Willam Stark

300Ac- Mance Rayder.

 

To me it's clear that Yandel sides with the dates in Blue and Black as he seems to side with True History. As such, he likely believes the Andals came 4k years ago with Theon being closer to 4k years ago rather than 2k years ago when they seem to be dating Brandon the Burner. As such, they would date the War across the Waters as beginning around 4k years ago and ending roughly 3k years ago, with Manderly's likely receiving it (Unsure where the Maesters date this as all mentioned dates come from non Maesters). It May be that the maesters still date the Manderly's under 2k years ago. Either way. The North still had ships in this time line to fight that war. I bet they also place Bear Island going to the Mormonts before Brandon the Burner too. This again though, is just one proposed time line by our author and his in world characters. Denestan halves it all but seems to not be favored by Yandel. 

 

 

No. Yandel’s history makes the most sense if you place Theon Stark and the start of the War Across the Water about 2000 years ago, with the war ending with the arrival of the Manderlys in White Harbor about 1000 years ago.

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

No. Yandel’s history makes the most sense if you place Theon Stark and the start of the War Across the Water about 2000 years ago, with the war ending with the arrival of the Manderlys in White Harbor about 1000 years ago.

That's not Yandel's history though. Yandel never states when the Maesters put the Manderly's. Also i dont see why Yandel would put Theon at 2k years ago when Yandel seems to be on the side of the Andals invading 4k years ago. I dont see Theon waiting that long to make his attack in this time line. Theon's attack would be closer to when the Andals were actually launching their ships and his attack would have proved effective. If they've already stopped sailing, then your just an a-hole attacking people for no reason.

Edit- Correction. TWOIAF simply states some 1000 years before the conquest for Manderly's. While characters from asoiaf give us more specific dates or alter dates. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

53 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

That's not Yandel's history though. Yandel never states when the Maesters put the Manderly's. Also i dont see why Yandel would put Theon at 2k years ago when Yandel seems to be on the side of the Andals invading 4k years ago. I dont see Theon waiting that long to make his attack in this time line. Theon's attack would be closer to when the Andals were actually launching their ships and his attack would have proved effective. If they've already stopped sailing, then your just an a-hole attacking people for no reason.

Edit- Correction. TWOIAF simply states some 1000 years before the conquest for Manderly's. While characters from asoiaf give us more specific dates or alter dates. 

Ok. I can’t recall where Yandel dates the Andal invasion 4000 years ago. Might be I missed that.

[Corvo the Crow]

I am one of those proposing Farwynds (of Loney Light) come from Brandon Shipwright but not because of skinchanging, not entirely.

This was my post on it

Quote

Not that it means anything but Gylbert Farwynd is described by Aeron as a "tall spare lord with a melancholy visage and a lantern jaw" and he has eyes changing color between blue and grey"

The word melancholy takes place only 12 times in the series and though there are several melancholy characters, Starks are the most associated with it as it's not just the individuals, it is the house.

Anyway,I'm sure most of you will remember the crazy Stark guy Brandon sailing his fleet to sunset sea. Guess what Gylbert does in kingsmoot? He offers to lead the Ironborn to the lands across the sunset sea. 

 

Though I don't propose all the Farwynds are coming from Starks, but Gylbert Farwynd is most likely a descendant of Brandon the shipwright. Perhaps he comes from Brandon and a female line of Farwynds.

There was a second post on skinchanging to not just any beast but to the "Wolves of the sea" but can't find it now.

 

Also worth noting is two things;

 1. Farwynds took their name after building lonely light, this means they worked their way back to the main island group, populating the other islands and eventually a piece of Great Wyk, not the other way around.

2. As noted, Dating of Theon and Brandon SW

This is how our Brandon lists them, chronologically it seems:

Quote

That one is Jon Stark. When the sea raiders landed in the east, he drove them out and built the castle at White Harbor. His son was Rickard Stark, not my father's father but another Rickard, he took the Neck away from the Marsh King and married his daughter. Theon Stark's the real thin one with the long hair and the skinny beard. They called him the 'Hungry Wolf,' because he was always at war. That's a Brandon, the tall one with the dreamy face, he was Brandon the Shipwright, because he loved the sea. His tomb is empty. He tried to sail west across the Sunset Sea and was never seen again. His son was Brandon the Burner, because he put the torch to all his father's ships in grief. There's Rodrik Stark, who won Bear Island in a wrestling match and gave it to the Mormonts. And that's Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. He was the last King in the North and the first Lord of Winterfell, after he yielded to Aegon the Conqueror. Oh, there, he's Cregan Stark. He fought with Prince Aemon once, and the Dragonknight said he'd never faced a finer swordsman." They were almost at the end now, and Bran felt a sadness creeping over him. "And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father's brother. They're not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done."

 

Theon was earlier than Brandon SW, Rodrik is later. Rodrik  who would have no fleet if he is after burner reclaims bear island by the strength of his arm and not of his fleet, care to guess why? Because he has none!

 

We now know Farwynds were blown off course and their house started on Lonely Light and worked their way towards Great Wyk. 

Before this piece of information I was suggesting that Brandon SW took a Farwynd bride and is ancestor to Lonely light Farwynds alone. Now I have two thoughts, first is Farwynds predate BSW and BSW took a Farwynd Bride second is BSW founded the Farwynds, he and his men resorted to saltwiving perhaps or took brides from the main clusters. Remember that Ironborn are of first men blood and  "andal taint" took a thousand years to reach them. BSW and his crew can very well pass for Ironman with some good background story.

 

Also remember that GRRM told us that BSW never reached Asshai or wherever but he never told us his eventual fate either.

Edit: an alternate scenario would be that if it was hundreds of years since BSW, he set sail after Andals arrived to Isles, so he may have reached there during the time of the peaceful Hoares.

[Bael's Bastard]

15 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

..Manderly says they have not had strength at sea for hundreds of years since Brandon the Burner, and also date them selves to 1000 years before the conquest. They clearly seem to understand the usage of the terms they are using and clearly date them selves to being in the North before Brandon the Burner. A Maester can differ all they want, that though, is what the Manderly's say. 

Lord Manderly proposed to build King Robb Stark a warfleet, and claimed that "we" have had no strength at sea for hundreds of years, since King Brandon Stark, the Burner, put torch to his father's ships. Nothing in these statements makes it clear that the Manderlys were in the North before Brandon the Burner, only that the Starks/North haven't had strength at sea since Brandon the Burner.

15 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

None of those examples though have a contradicting date pegging them at any thing other than the hundreds of years as stated. Cersei speaking about Targaryens and incest is spot on to what she knows of their time in Westeros. She's speaking on House Targaryen, not Valyria. What contradicts Qyburn putting that at thousands of years ago when he says hundreds? Like wise for what you quote of Luwin? Using one source who says one time and another source that says another time is completely irrelevant to the point about the Manderly's and their dating. Does Luwen contradict him self? Or is it just merely some one else contradicting him? Your going to confuse your self imo. You cant create a time line trying to fit every ones dating as right. 

That is simply incorrect. All of these examples use "hundreds of years" or "centuries" to refer to things that are in other places stated or implied to be a thousand years or longer.

Lewin says that the the Andals came "centuries later," and the wars of the Andals lasted "hundreds of years," right after claiming that First Men came 12,000 years ago, and the Pact lasted 4,000 years, and when elsewhere it is stated that the Andals didn't even turn to the Iron Lands to conquer them for a thousand years. He is clearly using "centuries" and "hundreds of years" very loosely.

Bran's POVs refers to keeps and towers of Winterfell that have stood for centuries, referring to a castle that is thousands of years old, even if parts of the castle have been repaired, rebuilt, or replaced over the millennia.

Qyburn describes the men of the Citadel as having opened the bodies of the dead for "hundreds of years." The Citadel is claimed to have been founded by a son of Uthor Hightower, who is claimed to have wed a daughter of Garth Greenhand, and by some legends to have been contemporary with Bran the Builder. The glass candles at the Citadel are claimed to have been brought from Valyria a thousand years before the Doom. Clearly the Citadel has been around for a very long time.

Incest is an ancient tradition of the Valyrian dragonriders, which the Targaryens have been practicing for thousands, not hundreds, of years, going back to when they were one of the Forty Families. 

So "hundreds or years" and "centuries" can clearly be used very loosely in the books at times to refers to things that are elsewhere stated or implied to be a thousand years or more. Without more specific information, it is just a vague, imprecise amount of time, not something that you can built a timeline on.

Aside from all that, consider that in AGOT: Bran VII, the Brandons are placed between Theon Stark and Rodrik Stark.

Rodrik is said to have captured Bear Island after the death of the Old Kraken Loron Greyjoy, who was chosen by a Kingsmoot.  Lord Rodrik Harlaw tells us that it Haereg claims it has been four thousand years since the last kingsmoot, while Denestan claims it has been half that.

16 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Again. I created a time line showing all known events and who is giving those dating. So to better get an idea you have to group those that agree and those that dont' into different groups. Obviously Yandel is basing work off Glydane and other maesters he agrees with. Manderly's may not agree with them. They may agree more with Maester Denestan. Catelynn seems to disagree with all of them placing the Alyssa Arryn well before any known Maester dating. 

Lord Rodrik states that the last kingsmoot was 4000 years ago according to Haereg and half that according to Denestan. Loron Grejoy was chosen by a kingsmoot. Rodrik Stark captured Bear Island after the death of Loron Grejoy. The Brandons are listed after Theon Stark and before Rodrik Stark in AGOT: Bran VII.

So clearly Gyldayn's claim that the Brandons lived thousands of years ago is not even contradicted by the very lowest of chronologies of Denestan, together with the other information we have. And personally, I think roughly 1500 years ago, give or take a couple centuries, still works with Gyldayn's claim of "thousands of years." But I think after the arrival of the Manderlys, especially centuries after the arrival of the Manderlys, isn't really supported by anything.

16 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Im not debating the fact that Glydane believes Brandon was "thousands of years ago". Glydane likely believes the Andals came long before that as he seems to be in the same camp as Yandel. 

Im debating whether he is right based off other peoples datings. One of which is the Manderlys who clearly date them selves to being in the North before Brandon burned the ships.

The Manderlys do not "clearly" claim to have been in the North before Brandon burned the ships. His statement doesn't tell us one way or the other whether the Manderlys were already there or arrived after. It just tells us that the North/Starks haven't had strength at sea since then. However long ago "then" was.
 

[Free Northman Reborn]

The Burner had to live after the Hungry Wolf, and also after the War Across the Water.

Therefore, likely at least 1500 years after the Andals took over the Vale, given that Matthos II Arryn already ruled the Vale when the War Across the Water started.

A date less than a thousand years ago best fits all the evidence.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

22 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Ok. I can’t recall where Yandel dates the Andal invasion 4000 years ago. Might be I missed that.

Sorry was typing quick while working. Double checked my self and Yandel never fully states. Closest is stating 

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships

The last of the great migrations into Westeros happened long after the coming of the First Men and the Andals. Once the Ghiscari wars had ended, the dragonlords of Valyria turned their gaze toward the west, where the growth of Valyrian power brought the Freehold and its colonies into conflict with the peoples of the Rhoyne.

 

Ghis having fell 5k years ago. Implying that the Andals had came already before Ghis fell, and that next to fall were the Rhoynar. 

 

He does bring up the Bracken Blackwood feud but doesn't cite its start or any other Maester speculation. 

So i could be wrong and @@Ran is more than welcome to clarify where Yandel see's the Andal Invasion. 

 

Edit-

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jaime I

"When did all this happen?"

"Five hundred years before the Andals. A thousand, if the True History is to be believed. Only no one knows when the Andals crossed the narrow sea. The True History says four thousand years have passed since then, but some maesters claim that it was only two. Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history becomes the fog of legend."

Pulling added info. Not sure what the Blackwoods actually believe but they cite the Andals at 4k according to True Histories, and only 2k from Denestan.  Again, just speculating, but Yandel seems to favor Gyldane and true history.

[AlaskanSandman]

9 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Lord Manderly proposed to build King Robb Stark a warfleet, and claimed that "we" have had no strength at sea for hundreds of years, since King Brandon Stark, the Burner, put torch to his father's ships. Nothing in these statements makes it clear that the Manderlys were in the North before Brandon the Burner, only that the Starks/North haven't had strength at sea since Brandon the Burner.

That is simply incorrect. All of these examples use "hundreds of years" or "centuries" to refer to things that are in other places stated or implied to be a thousand years or longer.

Lewin says that the the Andals came "centuries later," and the wars of the Andals lasted "hundreds of years," right after claiming that First Men came 12,000 years ago, and the Pact lasted 4,000 years, and when elsewhere it is stated that the Andals didn't even turn to the Iron Lands to conquer them for a thousand years. He is clearly using "centuries" and "hundreds of years" very loosely.

Bran's POVs refers to keeps and towers of Winterfell that have stood for centuries, referring to a castle that is thousands of years old, even if parts of the castle have been repaired, rebuilt, or replaced over the millennia.

Qyburn describes the men of the Citadel as having opened the bodies of the dead for "hundreds of years." The Citadel is claimed to have been founded by a son of Uthor Hightower, who is claimed to have wed a daughter of Garth Greenhand, and by some legends to have been contemporary with Bran the Builder. The glass candles at the Citadel are claimed to have been brought from Valyria a thousand years before the Doom. Clearly the Citadel has been around for a very long time.

Incest is an ancient tradition of the Valyrian dragonriders, which the Targaryens have been practicing for thousands, not hundreds, of years, going back to when they were one of the Forty Families. 

So "hundreds or years" and "centuries" can clearly be used very loosely in the books at times to refers to things that are elsewhere stated or implied to be a thousand years or more. Without more specific information, it is just a vague, imprecise amount of time, not something that you can built a timeline on.

Aside from all that, consider that in AGOT: Bran VII, the Brandons are placed between Theon Stark and Rodrik Stark.

Rodrik is said to have captured Bear Island after the death of the Old Kraken Loron Greyjoy, who was chosen by a Kingsmoot.  Lord Rodrik Harlaw tells us that it Haereg claims it has been four thousand years since the last kingsmoot, while Denestan claims it has been half that.

Lord Rodrik states that the last kingsmoot was 4000 years ago according to Haereg and half that according to Denestan. Loron Grejoy was chosen by a kingsmoot. Rodrik Stark captured Bear Island after the death of Loron Grejoy. The Brandons are listed after Theon Stark and before Rodrik Stark in AGOT: Bran VII.

So clearly Gyldayn's claim that the Brandons lived thousands of years ago is not even contradicted by the very lowest of chronologies of Denestan, together with the other information we have. And personally, I think roughly 1500 years ago, give or take a couple centuries, still works with Gyldayn's claim of "thousands of years." But I think after the arrival of the Manderlys, especially centuries after the arrival of the Manderlys, isn't really supported by anything.

The Manderlys do not "clearly" claim to have been in the North before Brandon burned the ships. His statement doesn't tell us one way or the other whether the Manderlys were already there or arrived after. It just tells us that the North/Starks haven't had strength at sea since then. However long ago "then" was.
 

 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran II

In addition to a mint, Lord Manderly also proposed to build Robb a warfleet. "We have had no strength at sea for hundreds of years, since Brandon the Burner put the torch to his father's ships. Grant me the gold and within the year I will float you sufficient galleys to take Dragonstone and King's Landing both."

 

A Dance with Dragons - Davos III

"Hush, child," said Lady Leona. "You heard your lord grandfather. Hush! You know nothing."

"I know about the promise," insisted the girl. "Maester Theomore, tell them! A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf's Den before the old gods and the new. When we were sore beset and friendless, hounded from our homes and in peril of our lives, the wolves took us in and nourished us and protected us against our enemies. The city is built upon the land they gave us. In return we swore that we should always be their men. Stark men!"

 

 

Again i think your confusing this. Manderly's clearly state that Brandon the Burner was hundreds of years ago, while they came North 1300 years ago.

 

And i know those dates you cited are contradicted by other people else where. Are they contradicted by the same people citing them though? 

 

You seem to be lumping every ones perceived views on time in the novel into one.

 

Edit- Just because the citadel has been around for a while doesn't mean Qyburn is wrong. Science has been around for a while, didn't mean the romans and greeks dissected and documented as Michaengelo did. Hence why his work is so important. Other wise they might still fixing you guided by the four humors. 

 

Why would Targaryen's need to perform incest before the Doom? Specially with other dragon riding families in existence? They wed Velaryon's who weren't dragon riders before they lost their dragons. So why not just fore go banging your sister and choose from one of the many dragon families?

 

Edit again. - I just want to re-stress that yes i know one person says something while another says something else. Now if Qyburn turned around and countered him self, that would be different. But using other peoples work to counter some one who obviously doesn't agree with that person's work doesn't in and of it self make that person wrong, as in Qyburn's case. 

[AlaskanSandman]

7 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The Burner had to live after the Hungry Wolf, and also after the War Across the Water.

Therefore, likely at least 1500 years after the Andals took over the Vale, given that Matthos II Arryn already ruled the Vale when the War Across the Water started.

A date less than a thousand years ago best fits all the evidence.

 

Agreed, i just think coming to this conclusion isn't attainable by looking at one person's view and excepting that. Cat and maybe Yandel date Andals at 6k. True Histories at 4k (What i assume Yandel actually follows) or Denestan at 2k and other clues we have been given like the Vale wars etc. Yandel seems to side with Maester Gyldane though, who puts Brandon the Burner at thousands of years ago. So clearly we disagree with Yandel, Glydane, and True Histories. Imo

[sangbum60090]

Brandon the Shipwright was likely inspired by Abu Bakr II of Mali

Quote

Virtually all that is known of Abu Bakr II is from the account of Chihab al-Umari. Al-Umari visited Cairo after Mansa Musa stopped there during his historic hajj to Mecca, and recorded a conversation between Musa and his host, Abu'l Hasan Ali ibn Amir Habib. According to Musa, Abu Bakr became convinced that he could find the edge of the Atlantic Ocean, and outfitted an expedition of 200 ships to find it. Only one of those ships returned; the captain related that the expedition had come to a "river with a powerful current" in the ocean. The current took most of the fleet away, after which the captain turned back. According to Musa, Abu Bakr was undeterred and launched an even larger expedition with himself as the head, departing with 2,000 vessels for his men and a like number for supplies. He left Musa, his vizier, as his deputy during his absence. The expedition was never heard from again, and Musa became the next emperor.

1

 

[The Grey Wolf]

11 minutes ago, sangbum60090 said:

Brandon the Shipwright was likely inspired by Abu Bakr II of Mali.

I doubt it. GRRM doesn't give off the impression that he's well-versed in Middle Eastern history.

[sangbum60090]

2 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

I doubt it. GRRM doesn't give off the impression that he's well-versed in Middle Eastern history.

West African, not Middle Eastern.

Who knows, maybe he was reading some pop history book and it came upon him.

[The Grey Wolf]

5 minutes ago, sangbum60090 said:

West African, not Middle Eastern.

Who knows, maybe he was reading some pop history book and it came upon him.

I tend to conflate N/W Africa with the ME proper when discussing history following the advent of Islam. Anyway, I doubt you'd find that tale in some pop history book but what do I know?