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Lord Varys

[spoiler] How gray is Prince Daemon after all?

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On 11/27/2018 at 7:15 PM, Lord Varys said:

That's not how Rhaenyra Targaryen sees it:

Quote

“The queen wept when they told her how Ser Lorent died,” Mushroom testifies, “but she raged when she learned that Maidenpool had gone over to the foe, that the girl Nettles had escaped, that her own beloved consort had betrayed her, and she trembled when Lady Mysaria warned her against the coming dark, that this night would be worse than the last.

Apparently, Rhaenyra didn't see Daemon's actions as a noble sacrifice for herself and their children.

I looked at that one again, and I am not sure that it refers to Daemon's suicide. That night she received the message of Nettle's escape, the loss of Maidenpool and Daemon's betrayal, and it seems that all these events are connected. Daemon died two weeks after his departure from Maidenpool (and it took even longer for that information to spread), so I do not think that news about his death would have arrived KL at the same time as the other two events.

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48 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I looked at that one again, and I am not sure that it refers to Daemon's suicide. That night she received the message of Nettle's escape, the loss of Maidenpool and Daemon's betrayal, and it seems that all these events are connected. Daemon died two weeks after his departure from Maidenpool (and it took even longer for that information to spread), so I do not think that news about his death would have arrived KL at the same time as the other two events.

Could be. Difficult to say, in the end, considering that we don't exactly know when those events take place in relation to Daemon's death, nor do we get any reaction of Rhaenyra's - or Daemon's - children to the news about his death (if Rhaenyra's ramblings do not constitute such a reaction).

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Could be. Difficult to say, in the end, considering that we don't exactly know when those events take place in relation to Daemon's death, nor do we get any reaction of Rhaenyra's - or Daemon's - children to the news about his death (if Rhaenyra's ramblings do not constitute such a reaction).

The Worldbook stated the riots took place on the same day as the Battle Above the God's Eye, but I am not sure if that is still canon. @Ran 

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1 minute ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

The Worldbook stated the riots took place on the same day as the Battle Above the God's Eye, but I am not sure if that is still canon. @Ran 

I prefer it isn't and won't want to hear it if it is not, considering that this both ruins the Half-Year Queen thing as well as totally fucking up the post-KL chronology for Rhaenyra. If she fled KL in the fifth moon of 130 AC, she were at best queen for 4+ moons, not to mention that it would take her nearly five additional moons (!!!) to get to Dragonstone. I cannot wrap my head around that one. She does spend some time in Duskendale, but the vibe we get is that that's weeks, perhaps a moon and some weeks, but not 3-4 months (!!!) or more.

Since you are asking that - is the TWoIaF date for the formation of the Kingsguard (10 AC) from George? We don't get any date in FaB.

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I suppose you could make the argument that Daemon's reformation of the City Watch could be counted in his favor, but that's not really a matter of morality. 

I think Daemon's ambiguity would have worked out better had his role as a father been played up more (ex. killing Aegon's son out of grief over his stepson, showing more active concern for his kids' safety, etc).

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Rhaenyra not seeing something as a noble sacrifice doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t. She sees a betrayal but doesn’t mean she was actually betrayed.

Do we find out what happens to Mysaria btw? I have only had time to read snippets right now

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18 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

The Worldbook stated the riots took place on the same day as the Battle Above the God's Eye, but I am not sure if that is still canon. @Ran 

That's an error caused by trying to compress too much info, and George basically backtracking from the God's Eye to show the aftermath of Addam's escape and so on which we didn't stick the landing on. The date where chaos begins, correctly noted later in the paragraph, is Helaena's death. I think we'll tweak it slightly to try and make it plainer that even by the time Daemon died, KL was a mess.

That said, the timeline is clear: everything that happens from Helaena's death to Rhaenyra's flight from King's Landing takes place in a mere handful of days, in the 5th moon. The Mooton's swapping sides, Nettle's escape, Daemon's "betrayal" -- all information she gets in the days and evening after Helaena's death and the riots that ensued -- that couldn't have taken  more than a week to get to her. if that. She is the Half-Year Queen because she sat the Iron Throne for the better part of the first half of the year of 130 AC.

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15 minutes ago, Ran said:

 

That's an error caused by trying to compress too much info, and George basically backtracking from the God's Eye to show the aftermath of Addam's escape and so on which we didn't stick the landing on. The date where chaos begins, correctly noted later in the paragraph, is Helaena's death. I think we'll tweak it slightly to try and make it plainer that even by the time Daemon died, KL was a mess.

That said, the timeline is clear: everything that happens from Helaena's death to Rhaenyra's flight from King's Landing takes place in a mere handful of days, in the 5th moon. The Mooton's swapping sides, Nettle's escape, Daemon's "betrayal" -- all information she gets in the days and evening after Helaena's death and the riots that ensued -- that couldn't have taken  more than a week to get to her. if that. She is the Half-Year Queen because she sat the Iron Throne for the better part of the first half of the year of 130 AC.

I kind of thought so. I think it is reasonable to assume that Addam's escape from KL did happen one day before Nettle's escape from Maidenpool and the other events there (the letter demanding Nettle's execution would have been sent immediately after the council session). So unless two weeks passed between these events and Rhaenyra learning about them, the "betrayal" of Daemon does not refer to his way of death but to his refusal to come back to KL.

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Sigh. Thankfully we don't really get an in-universe chronology there. If one processes this then this means absolutely nothing happened in Westeros between Rhaenyra's flight (and Second Tumbleton which should have taken place a few weeks later, perhaps, followed by the fall of Dragonstone shortly before Rhaenyra's first letter from Duskendale) and Rhaenyra's death in the tenth moon. Absolutely nothing.

That is very hard to swallow, especially since this also means the Moon of Madness was actually the Half Year of Madness, right? Because the three kings ruled there from the riots until after Rhaenyra's execution.

I guess one can still interpret Rhaenyra's rant on Daemon's betrayal interpret as her also learning about Daemon's death - I don't think the Mootons were that eager to broadly communicate that they had switched sides - so that some weeks may have passed between Daemon's death and the riots, but overall this chronology is very much fucked up.

Rhaenyra spends some time in Duskendale, but not all that long. Days go by there, not weeks, so we are faced here with a huge black hole that ate not only weeks but months because it is quite clear that Rhaenyra didn't need weeks or months to get to Duskendale. She didn't spend months in Duskendale, and she didn't spend weeks or months on the Braavosi ship. And she was killed on the spot when she arrived at Dragonstone.

Even if we were to delude ourselves that Rhaenyra must have stayed for months in Duskendale (as guest of a woman who didn't want her there in the first place) then it makes no sense whatsoever that her enemies didn't try to get to her there.

It is even worse with KL, of course.

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2 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I kind of thought so. I think it is reasonable to assume that Addam's escape from KL did happen one day before Nettle's escape from Maidenpool and the other events there (the letter demanding Nettle's execution would have been sent immediately after the council session). So unless two weeks passed between these events and Rhaenyra learning about them, the "betrayal" of Daemon does not refer to his way of death but to his refusal to come back to KL.

Right. Makes plenty of sense.

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On ‎11‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 2:31 PM, HelenaExMachina said:

Rhaenyra not seeing something as a noble sacrifice doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t. She sees a betrayal but doesn’t mean she was actually betrayed.

Do we find out what happens to Mysaria btw? I have only had time to read snippets right now

She was flogged to death.

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On 11/29/2018 at 3:31 PM, HelenaExMachina said:

Do we find out what happens to Mysaria btw? I have only had time to read snippets right now

 

After smallfolk gets inside the Keep they flog her and promise her freedom if she can walk to the city’s gate. Bitch dies halfway on the road.

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14 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

In the Rogue Prince, there was a rumor that Daemon deflowered Alicent, beginning the feud between him and Otto. Was this mentioned in F&B though?

Nope. That's gone. Along with the claim that Aegon II decreed Rhaenyra never was a queen and some other things.

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59 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nope. That's gone. Along with the claim that Aegon II decreed Rhaenyra never was a queen and some other things.

Hmm. The Aegon one makes sense to me, seeing as that was his mother, but I wonder why GRRM did away with the story about Daemon and Alicent. I always thought it added an extra layer of intrigue to the family drama. 

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