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Gwindor

The branches of House Vance

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So, we've learned from Fire and Blood that during the Dance, the Vances of Wayfarer's Rest (who display a black dragon on their sigil) supported Rhaenyra and the blacks, while the Vances of Atranta (with a green dragon on their sigil) supported Aegon and the greens.

Is it just a coincidence, or can we safely assume that the two branches first split during the Dance, or at least adjusted their sigils at that time?

It seems most likely to me that Wayfarer's Rest is the seat of the senior branch (they are more prominent in both the main series and the historical materials), while the Vances of Atranta (which is actually first mentioned in Fire and Blood in relation to their support of Aegon) split from them at the beginning of the Dance to declare for the greens.

What do you think? And, if I am correct, what was their sigil(s) before the Dance? Of course, any input from @Ran would be greatly appreciated.

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8 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

There were already two lords Vance when Arlan III conquered the riverlands 400 years prior to the Conquest.

Yes, you are right, I missed that.

Still, the question about the sigils remains. It just seems too much of a coincidence, unless, of course, the two branches consulted their sigils while deciding who to support :) 

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20 minutes ago, Gwindor said:

So, we've learned from Fire and Blood that during the Dance, the Vances of Wayfarer's Rest (who display a black dragon on their sigil) supported Rhaenyra and the blacks, while the Vances of Atranta (with a green dragon on their sigil) supported Aegon and the greens.

Is it just a coincidence, or can we safely assume that the two branches first split during the Dance, or at least adjusted their sigils at that time?

It seems most likely to me that Wayfarer's Rest is the seat of the senior branch (they are more prominent in both the main series and the historical materials), while the Vances of Atranta (which is actually first mentioned in Fire and Blood in relation to their support of Aegon) split from them at the beginning of the Dance to declare for the greens.

What do you think? And, if I am correct, what was their sigil(s) before the Dance? Of course, any input from @Ran would be greatly appreciated.

I've asked this to @Ran quite recently and his answer was their CoA's were designed before there were Greens and Blacks.

I mean, GRRM invented them before there were greens and blacks, not the houses themselves.

 

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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Right. George came up with the Greens and Blacks long after he made up the arms. Could he be retconning an explanation? Well, I find it unlikely that the Vances would permanently memorialize their respective partisanship in a brutal civil war, given that it would merely evoke bad feelings from those on the opposite side...

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1 minute ago, Ran said:

Right. George came up with the Greens and Blacks long after he made up the arms. Could he be retconning an explanation? Well, I find it unlikely that the Vances would permanently memorialize their respective partisanship in a brutal civil war, given that it would merely evoke bad feelings from those on the opposite side…

Do we have Vances with Red and Blue dragons as well:P

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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19 minutes ago, Ran said:

Right. George came up with the Greens and Blacks long after he made up the arms. Could he be retconning an explanation? Well, I find it unlikely that the Vances would permanently memorialize their respective partisanship in a brutal civil war, given that it would merely evoke bad feelings from those on the opposite side...

Yeah, I had that thought, but I figured that since there was no clear winner in the war (we can't really say that the greens or the blacks won), it wouldn't matter as much as, say, leaving a reference to Blackfyres on a sigil. And if the two branches were unwilling to unite again (assuming they split up during the Dance, which has been shown to not be the case), I could see them sticking up to those sigils.

A pity, I was sure I'd found something real :( 

Anyway, thanks! That resolves my question completely.

By the way, is there any idea about the approximate locations of those castles? As far as I can tell (judging from the first riverlords to react to Lannister attacks in AGOT, as well as the travels of Princess Rhaena Targaryen), Wayfarer's Rest should be somewhere close to Pinkmaiden and Golden Tooth. Not sure about Atranta.

Edited by Gwindor

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