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Sophia Wilson17@yahoo.ca

What is your theory on The Others?

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On ‎11‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 2:01 PM, YOVMO said:

I have a bit of a pet theory on this that I am sure is wrong, but every now and again I like to take it off the shelf and play with it a bit.

It goes like this:

The return of the Others has a lot to do with Torrhen Stark.

I believe that the war against the COTF say Brandon of the Bloody Blade do a lot of killing of the children. Bloody Brandon's son, Bran the Builder, stuck a peace deal to end the war (and the long night) which inlcuded setting basic ground rules for how the first men dealth with the children, the adoption of the old gods and the ability to raise the wall and do some other feats of building with the childrens magic.

One part of the deal, I think, is that a sacrifice must be made. Bran's line (kings of winter / kings in the north) must sacrifice themselves in perpetuity. Let me explain. The word "vengeful" is only used twice in GOT and both time in reference to spirits in Winterfell. The first is in Eddard I

This lead me to question why the spirits of the kings of winter were "vengeful." What vengence did they seek? Tough, angry, cruel, kind, decent, quiet, adventurous...all could apply to some kings....8000 years of Stark kings I am sure there were all kinds but why were they all refereed to as being vengeful spirits?

Well, let's think about the burial customs. It is only the King/Lord who is given a likeness with a sword across his knee (to keep his vengeful spirit in) with 3 exceptions. Why? Well it would seem like it is to give the king something special. But is it? First men are buried in barrows. Their spirits believed to become part of the greater consciousness/weirnet whatever (think of the bones around bloodraven)......while the statue and sword seem like an honor, if they keep the spirit locked away where custom dictates it is to become part of the oneness then it is a punishment...an eternal imprisonment. I mean, if anyone should be entitled to the rights of the dead by custom it ought to be the king....My thinking here is that the statue serves as a prison with the sword as a lock to keep the stark king's spirit imprisoned. Part of the weight and responsibility of being king (something grrm often stresses is that being king isn't doing whatever you want it is very much a duty).

 

So there, as part of the concession of Bran the Builder to the COTF, in the crypts sit the vengeful spirits of the stark kings imprisoned for eternity to never return "home." This surrendering of the kings spirit is part of what bran had to sacrifice to end the war and the long night.

Enter the problem: Torrhen Stark bends the knee to the Dragon and breaks the line of Stark kings. Now there is no Stark King, no King of Winter, no King in the North....only Lords of Winterfell. With no stark king the deal Brandon struck with the COTF that the King in the North would sacrifice his soul is broken. With the deal broken the magic that Bran the Builder used is revoked. Where do we see evidence of this? Well, many of the structures that Bran build seemed age proof. But now look at the nightfort...total disrepair. Look at the wall...it is shrinking every generation. Look how the oldest sections of the crypts are falling apart. Moreover, look at how ned notices the iron long swords rusting away into nothing. Some of those swords have been there for thousands on thousands of years and they only strike Ned as being rusted through now....I would guess they didn't look as bad or even rusted at all when he was a child. If this was a common thing all his life why comment on it at all? Even the ones that were just red stains....they should have been so long gone 3000 years before the conquest that even the stains would be missing.

Now look back at the others? Why now? It can't be the dragons return and return of magic, Craster has been sacrificing children to them for a while before Dany hatches her dragons.

I took a look at some metal websites and it shows that steel will decompose (in optimal conditions) in 2-500 years meaning the swords of the kings of old, the ones that are 2,3,4,7 thousand years old should have been a distant memory by the time Ned was born not showing signs of rust and recent decomposition or even stains on stone....we are talking thousands and thousands of years. And this is under optimal conditions, let alone being left out in the crypts where they are exposed to moisture and air.

I believe that those swords, like the walls of the oldest keeps in Winterfell, the oldest parts of the crypts, the nightfort and the wall were all held together by magic that bran used, magic from the children of the forest, magic rescinded when Torrhen bent the knee and the stark family could no longer uphold it's end of the bargain by sacrificing and imprisoning the soul of the dead kings.

Given the 3 generations of sacrifice by Craster (short generations due to the fact that he would basically peregrinate his daughters as soon as they were of child bearing years) I think that we can say that the re-emergence of the Others happens roughly 250 AC when Craster first starts making his child sacrifices. 250 years from When Torrhen knelt. This timeline fits perfectly for the time it would take those iron longswords, bereft of the magic of the COTF, to deteriorate and break. In breaking the "vengeful spirits" of the Stark Kings, not able to join the weirnet, were freed....these, I believe, are the Others.

Interesting but remember the Starks weren't always Kings of North there other families that fought for that title.  Yes you right that Starks stomp them to the ground or marry them to their family.  I don't believe Craster was the ONLY one made children offering.

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Starks promised the first greenseer born (After the night king who was the first) belongs to the others Bran Stark is the first in 8,000 years and isn’t at their side 

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On 12/28/2018 at 1:30 PM, Sophia [email protected] said:

I think he just knew that if he leave offerings (or Safice) the Cold Ones will leave him alone. ps I believe there others (Free Folks) whom done the same thing as Craster in past 8000 years. 

Yeah that may be true.

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14 hours ago, WatchingEye said:

Starks promised the first greenseer born (After the night king who was the first) belongs to the others Bran Stark is the first in 8,000 years and isn’t at their side 

this is interesting. would you please elaborate?

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I was joking around on another forum about what would happen if the Others went to Valyria (laughing that its basically full of magical tetanus for them, since there's likely shards of valyrian steel weapons and tools everywhere that they could trip on and melt).  I don't think its likely - even  remotely - but we keep on focusing on Fire (in dragons) traveling to the realm of Ice (beyond the wall), but never the opposite.

Has anyone ever considered that scenario?

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On 12/10/2018 at 5:36 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The Others were never gone. There's no need for a Wall if they are completely gone, no matter who built it.

I think there is a connection between the end of the Long night and the rise of Valyria. And I think there is a connection between the Others return and the Doom of Valyria. The Others and the Valyrians exist in opposite. One is ice, the other is fire. One possibly exists in the Lands of Always Winter while the other existed in the Lands of the Long Summer

That's one reason why I think it'd be appropriate if the last Targaryens ended up living in the far north at the conclusion of the series (or at least headed there once): from the Lands of the Long Summer to the Lands of Always Winter. (It's specifically mentioned that Aenar Targaryen had holdings in the Lands of the Long Summer before he sold them and moved to Dragonstone.) Of course, if the seasons return to normal at the end of the series it might not be "Always Winter" in those lands anymore, but they would still be the lands which used to bear that name.

For example, one way this could happen is that Jon and Dany fly to the heart of winter on dragonback and do whatever they need to do there to help stop the Others / end the Long Night. But if their dragon(s) die in the process then it may not be feasible for them to make the journey back on foot, given the distance, terrain, and weather (even if conditions improve with the changing of the seasons). Combined with personal reasons, like perhaps valuing a simpler life more than a position in royal society, Jon and Dany might just decide to stay up there and live out the rest of their days in the distant north, similar to the free folk, maybe even inhabiting some structures left behind by the Others, if any exist. 

To the rest of the realm, Jon and Dany would be missing. Some might presume they died, while others may send out search parties to look for them, but there's no guarantee they would be found so far north. This passage could foreshadow Jon, at least, going missing in the north at the end of the series:

Quote

"My uncle is out there," Jon Snow said softly, leaning on his spear as he stared off into the darkness. "The first night they sent me up here, I thought, Uncle Benjen will ride back tonight, and I'll see him first and blow the horn. He never came, though. Not that night and not any night."

"Give him time," Tyrion said.

Far off to the north, a wolf began to howl. Another voice picked up the call, then another. Ghost cocked his head and listened. "If he doesn't come back," Jon Snow promised, "Ghost and I will go find him." He put his hand on the direwolf's head.

"I believe you," Tyrion said, but what he thought was, And who will go find you? He shivered. (Tyrion III, AGOT)

Jon and Dany could go down in legend as the last Targaryens who flew north and sacrificed themselves to end the Long Night. But some might whisper they survived -- "The King and Queen Beyond the Wall" -- and that one day they or their descendants will return...

It almost sounds like one could write a song about it. ;)

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On 11/29/2018 at 7:16 PM, Frances Bean Corbray said:

House Stark's forgotten secret weapon, the real meaning of Winter Is Coming, and how The North Was Won.

The Night's King was scrubbed from history not for being an abominable outlier but for being too flagrant & obvious about Business As Usual.

It is the song of ice and fire.  Dragons are Fire Made Flesh, and tied to the blood of Old Valyria (currently surviving only in House Targaryen).  The Others are Ice Made Flesh, and tied to the blood of the First Men (ever running strongest in House Stark).

The Last Hero was a diplomat, not a warrior.  The Others cannot be beaten. They can only be asked Very Nicely To Please Stop.  And only a Stark can do it.

I like this. We know many lands around 7kingdoms even far Asshai and so on. But why no one ever described what lays north. I think Others exist from the very beggining. Others and the children of the forest are in some manner creators of the realm. Their powers are the powers of nature, the knowledge for this powers. I believe the answer is in the times before forging of the pact, before the arrival of first man. Maybe children have the answers and can handle the others because i believe children and others are the opposite sides of a coin. I agree others cant be killed or destroyed. There should be a wise way for their returning north. Since age of heros first men, andals, rhoynars, valyrian, all of them fight for land, power, crown. The battle with others should be a battle for existance for life. It will show whats truely important. Back from the very beggining. People should remember old times. North must remember.

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Maybe children have the answers and can handle the others because i believe children and others are the opposite sides of a coin. 

.....So, in ancient days, balance existed and the children had enough mojo to keep the Others in check.  Seasons partied in a dance of peaceful equality like a dosie doe.  Then mankind arrived and their population explosion unbalanced the scales, sabotaging a delicate arrangement between the ancients (also we killed lots of the Children, so the weir verizon network lost coverage until the Others walked where they pleased).  Now the Others had a rich target environment for their zombie voodoo, and the Children lost containment of Winter and zombies plagued the living.  The seasons started doing the finger dance.  Mass hysteria. 

Until it became necessary to bring Mankind in on the containment effort.   Men agreed to help build the wall and police it because their own presence was what caused the problems they were plagued with, and because it's nice to be trusted by the forest gods and forge an alliance that make you feel as if you've really arrived. 

.........then the Andals arrived.  The shit broke down.    No one's left in the air traffic control tower, which is why bloodraven is running the show.  The wall is all.  All that's really left.  And its time is at an end.   Ask watch commander # Soooo close to 1000, yet infinitely far from ever reaching that milestone.   

Hope lays (it shouldn't 'Lie') in rebuilding the original means of peacekeeping- - the psychic detante of minds that the 2 ancient species "enjoyed."   And that's Bran's homework.  He is to meet with the Others inside the weir consciousness, and together hash out what strange future will take shape.

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On 1/1/2019 at 10:02 PM, WatchingEye said:

Starks promised the first greenseer born (After the night king who was the first) belongs to the others Bran Stark is the first in 8,000 years and isn’t at their side 

How's THAT for a promised prince!  

Combining this with my above idea, 

The Children have known they're failing for some time.  They seem to have passed the baton to humans with the birth of greenseers among our ranks.   What if a Stark must always be in Winterfell because the Children set up the Stark bloodline to blossom with a mega greenseer at just the right time to act as humanity's hope by staving off the mega winter, like flowers know when to bloom as an inborn part of their nature.  

In Shadowmarch, the elves' royal line had submerged into their DNA the 'Fireflower.'   A remnant of a god's consciousness,  it heightened the minds of each generation of kings & queens before passing to the next.  

So, if true, Bran would 'belong' to the Others not because he's been promised to them as property, but because the Powers that Be dedicated him long ago to the task of playing the ultimate game of psyche entanglement chess with the Cold.   

Edited by The Mother of The Others

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When the first appearance of the Others began ? After the Pact between First Men and the Children when the FM adopted the gods of the Children and started using their magics . The  Others are the remains of people who was called back from the dead .

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On 11/27/2018 at 6:21 PM, Sophia [email protected] said:

My Theory is that part of the Pact with The Others is the Others demand that population keep the low on (Westeros) or that some sons of the Humans will be given to the White Walkers. Because this happen so long ago the terms of Pact were forgotten. As time went on The Others is now regard as legends.   Also people believe A Hero beat them back and that why the Wall was built.

 

Please list your theories.

Obviously they accepted Craster's sacrifice.  Craster must be honoring some part of the pact.  His Stark blood made his boys important to the Others.  Perhaps it's the skinchanging powers the Others covet.  This generation of Starks are all skin changers and maybe the Others would dearly love to have them sacrificed.  

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I think Bran Wargs into the Past & makes a pact with them. He promises the Night King a "Prince/Princess of Ice & Fire" in exchange for a prolonged period of peace.

Since then, he has to carefully manipulate the next 8000 years or so so that Jon or/& Danys child are born.... A Prince/Princess of Ice & Fire. 

Bittersweet.... The baby is given to the Night King to save the realm of men or Jon Kills Dany forging Lightbringer.

Bran finally realises he is pulling the strings all the way. He is playing the ultimate game of thrones

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On 2/12/2019 at 11:06 PM, The Bastard of Walton said:

I think Bran Wargs into the Past & makes a pact with them. He promises the Night King a "Prince/Princess of Ice & Fire" in exchange for a prolonged period of peace.

Since then, he has to carefully manipulate the next 8000 years or so so that Jon or/& Danys child are born.... A Prince/Princess of Ice & Fire. 

Bittersweet.... The baby is given to the Night King to save the realm of men or Jon Kills Dany forging Lightbringer.

Bran finally realises he is pulling the strings all the way. He is playing the ultimate game of thrones

Nonsense.

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On 2/3/2019 at 1:27 AM, Shmedricko said:

Jon and Dany fly to the heart of winter on dragonback and do whatever they need to do there to help stop the Others / end the Long Night. But if their dragon(s) die in the process then it may not be feasible for them to make the journey back on foot, given the distance, terrain, and weather (even if conditions improve with the changing of the seasons). Combined with personal reasons, like perhaps valuing a simpler life more than a position in royal society, Jon and Dany might just decide to stay up there and live out the rest of their days in the distant north, similar to the free folk, maybe even inhabiting some structures left behind by the Others, if any exist.

Scene:   the dragons collapse exhausted on the Others' courtyard landing pad, Superblood keeps Jon & Danny from succumbing to frostbite for long enough to identify the Heart of Winter, mystic machinery that warps the air around it with unearthly cold, no 'control panel' but those with the Blood can intuit the workings of these things.  Jon struggles to reset the seasons by 'cranking the handle'  (or some equivalent levering of that magical construct that sounds classier and more mysterious).  But it takes a toll on him: he's overcome with a tremendous chill.   Danny takes over when he loses momentum, and she too becomes frosted over with magical frostbite that crystalizes the heroes to the bone and remakes their bodies into what you and I would call Others.  And this is the Nissa meaning, and this is how it has always been, the source of all the Others is this heroic act that changes the hero over into coldlife and they are lost to us.  Every hero is the last hero, the last one needed, at least until the Heart rewinds, until all the years or centuries of warmth the heroes managed to purchase for us have been eaten away by time and the Heart resumes its march toward absolute zero.   Danny & Jon won't be alone in the court of cold, they'll join an allstar pantheon of humanity's best specimens.   But with all their warmth stolen, they can never again reset the seasons.  There must always be a Stark in Winterfell because no one else can survive the touch of cold when the Others come to lay hands on humanity in the desperate attempt to sift through us for their needle in a haystack- - they're trying to abduct someone who can survive the chill long enough to reset the Heart.

Edited by The Mother of The Others

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My very first theory, which I developed after watching "Game of Thrones" for the first time and before reading the books, was that they were Targaryens/Valyrians who had been magically transformed or that they were somehow related to the Valyrians. This was because they both had long, white/silvery hair, had special superior magic swords of certain materials, were tall and had special eye colours (I read about the eye colour thing on the Internet). I then developed this theory into them both respectively being descendants of a race of proto-humans who were the "ultimate" humans and superior to other humans - taller, more beautiful etc. The Others were descended from/created by the Great Other - or H'dhor, as I thought he was named in accordance to that theory - and the Valyrians were descended from/created by R'hllor. Thus the two races were each other's antitheses/opposites/contrasts - ice VS fire. And according to this theory, the Valyrians had red eyes from the beginning but they turned purple over the years and they also became more human in other ways due to breeding with the blue-eyed Andals and other normal humans. So according to this theory, the Long Night was H'dhor and the Others' cataclysmic/climactic event, and the Doom of Valyria the Valyrians' cataclysmic/climactic event, several thousand years later, and they will both meet in some way and fight a great battle in the new War for the Dawn - probably with a tied result since it can't really end with either side winning or it would be ridiculous as the symmetry between the two elements is the dynamic basis of ASOIAF's entire world.

I think it's a good theory. Also, Jon Snow might be reanimated by both an Other and Melisandre with half of his body lying on either side of the Wall under the gate of the tunnels and thus become the mix of both sides and the one who can bring balance to the world or embody both sides - the son of ice and fire.

Edited by Adam Targaryen

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the others are beings from another realm created by the universe to bring balance to the world. the begining of a new era, the infinite cycle of life, the change, old dies the new take his place (see spiral symbolism).

first night king-the last hero transformed by cotf to take the lead of the others.

13 lord commander of the night watch-the stark who kidnapped and married the night king daughter (bael the bard, lyanna stark story).

first three eyed raven-unknown.

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On 11/27/2018 at 3:21 PM, Sophia [email protected] said:

Please list your theories.

The war with the Children of the Forest ended with the CotF creating Winter with a capital W, a doomsday curse. They demanded the humans submit to their demands or the Winter would never end. Demands included the installment of a ruling family uniquely vulnerable to their mind magic as King. Humanity didn't capitulate right away, and alternative solutions were sought. One group went so far as to alter themselves with magic to be able to survive the Winter, but that was too high a price to pay for most, and eventually most of mankind capitulated.

The demands met, with the installment of The Stark as King, the Winter receded to the North. The humans who had adapted themselves to it could no longer survive without it, so they had to follow. These were the Others. There's a great deal of bitterness there: they see the rest of humanity as cowards who should not have surrendered.

The Others are back because the Winter is back, not the other way around. The Winter is on a dead-man's switch, and it returns automatically when the conditions of Humanity's surrender are broken in some way.

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2 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

The war with the Children of the Forest ended with the CotF creating Winter with a capital W, a doomsday curse. They demanded the humans submit to their demands or the Winter would never end. Demands included the installment of a ruling family uniquely vulnerable to their mind magic as King. Humanity didn't capitulate right away, and alternative solutions were sought. One group went so far as to alter themselves with magic to be able to survive the Winter, but that was too high a price to pay for most, and eventually most of mankind capitulated.

The demands met, with the installment of The Stark as King, the Winter receded to the North. The humans who had adapted themselves to it could no longer survive without it, so they had to follow. These were the Others. There's a great deal of bitterness there: they see the rest of humanity as cowards who should not have surrendered.

The Others are back because the Winter is back, not the other way around. The Winter is on a dead-man's switch, and it returns automatically when the conditions of Humanity's surrender are broken in some way.

Sir you need explain this more and in plain English this is very interesting you are saying that The War of CotF with the Others create a curse or after effect on the environment or seasonal patterns.? Right?  They made a demands that Winter would never END unless they do what they are told?.  The Starks were made Kings because they have magic?.  Humanity didn't capitulate right away? So one group of people alter themselves to winter season? Change their bodies into Ice?.  And what happen to rest of Humanity who didn't turn themselves into ice? They able to survive harsh long winter right but their numbers were few?  What do you mean by surrendered to who? the Children and the worshiping of the Trees.? or the fact they put the Starks into power/Kings?.  

 

 

I get the bitter part that the group who turn themselves in Others have their pride didn't give up to demands of the Children? They see the rest people who surrendered as slaves/cowards?. 

Edited by Sophia [email protected]
grammer

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