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hopes dashed by Fire and Blood


Dukhasinov

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I have finally finished Fire and Blood after three days of ignoring my wife and children, and, as enjoyable as it was, the only burning question that I had when I opened the book remained unanswered when I finished it, mostly because of where it ended. That question was, "What happened to the dragons?" TWOIAF left me with "Morning did not live long." Are you kidding me? What happened to Morning! The fact that I now know that she lived long enough to be ridden only makes the mystery all the more urgent. What happened to Silverwing after she went wild in the Reach? What happened to the Cannibal and Sheepstealer? Why didn`t any more dragon eggs hatch? For that matter, WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DEAD DRAGON EGGS? Dragon eggs are apparently worth a fortune, even when no-one expects them to hatch, so what happened to the eggs on Dragonstone? I was hoping to learn that Aegon III actively sought to have the last of them killed, and I`m still pretty sure that`s how it went. Were they really hurting for space so badly that they had to end the book at the end of the Regency? With everything that goes on between the Dance and Robert`s Rebellion, (the misrule of Aegon the Unworthy, the Blackfyre Rebellions, Baelor and the Maidenvault, the integration of Dorne, etc, etc...) was there really not enough meat left over for Fire and Blood II that they had to leave that one issue to dangle in front of my nose for another few years? I swear, ASOIAF is like an abusive relationship. It neglects, ignores, and abuses me, but I love it so much. I don`t mean to make it angry with me. I know it can be better if I just have more patience. 

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That's the thing, Fire and Blood, along with The World of Ice & Fire are written from a maester's biased perspective. As interesting and unique as that makes the book, it also means a great deal of the information we read could've been false, and there is also alot of information that the maesters wouldn't be privy to. 

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I think, that GRRM has intentionally ended Targaryen history where he did, because to reveal their further history would spoil TWOW and ADOS.

I have several theories about what happened during reighn of Aegon IV and V (I'm still in the process of reading F&B, so I don't know, whether some of this theories could be already disproved):

  • Sereney of Lys is Larra Rogare. When she was 30 years old, she faked her death, and later has returned to Westeros, and became last mistress of her own son;
  • Larra Rogare's mother is Johanna Swann, so all current Swanns, including Kingsguard Balon Swann, are working for Blackfyres;
  • The Bastard of Harrenhal is a secret son of Aegon IV and his own bastard-daughter, Jeyne Lothston;
  • Petyr Baelish' great grandfather, the sellsword from Braavos, hired by Lord Corbray, is son of the Bastard of Harrenhal, and thus Littlefinger is Aegon IV's great great great grandson (for example, Dany is Aegon IV's great great great great granddaughter, so Littlefinger has less generations between him and Aegon IV, than Dany);
  • Besides bastard-son in Braavos, the Bastard of Harrenhal also had legitimate children in Westeros. After he was knighted or got married, his last name became Whent. The Bastard of Harrenhal was grandfather of Lady Shella Whent. Minisa Whent was married to Hoster Tully, so Littlefinger and Catelyn are cousins (probably, third cousins). Hoster's children have a bit of dragonblood, thru their Whent line, so Robert Arryn, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon, Edmure Tully and his child are all dragonseeds. Maybe, they are Rhaegar's seven rubies;
  • Varys and Illyrio's wife, Serra, are siblings, and descendants of Blackfyres or Targaryens (which is basically the same thing, because a dragon is still a dragon, whether it's red green or black);
  • The Ghost of High Heart is Rohanne Webber-Lannister, and Jenny of Oldstones, wife of Duncan Targaryen, was her daughter;
  • Jenny of Oldstones is Varys' mother, he's a Spider because thru his maternal grandmother he is a Webber (and Lannister thru his maternal grandfather, Gerold Lannister);
  • Barristan Selmy is bloodrelated to Aenys Blackfyre, probably, he is Aenys' grandson;
  • Septa Lemore is Lady Jeyne Swann, and she is fAegon' mother, and the father is Barristan Selmy;
  • The septa, that was escorting Lady Jeyne, when they were attacked by Kingswood Brotherhood, and then saved by Barristan, was Shiera Seastar in a shadow-glamour (same as Maynard Plumm from The Mystery Knight novel was actually Lord Bloodraven in a shadow-mask, like Mance Rayder/Rattleshirt in ADWD);
  • Shiera Seastar and Blackfyres are somehow connected to the Tragedy at Summerhall;
  • Shiera Seastar is still alive, furthermore she is shadowbinder Quaithe and the Three-eyed Crow;
  • Maester Marwyn, Mirri Maz Duur, and Euron Greyjoy are ex-disciples of Shiera Seastar;
  • Shiera has lured Bloodraven beyond The Wall, and binded him to the Weirwood, same as in Arthurian legends Morgana le Fey did to her lover, wizard Merlin.
  • Old Nan is the girl from Bran's vision, that was kissing with a tall knight. And that knight was Duncan the Tall. So Hodor is Duncan's descendant.

If any of those theories are correct, then revealing any information about Targaryen history further than reighn of Viserys II, would spoil many things from the future books.

 

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  • 1 month later...
On 11/28/2018 at 2:56 PM, Megorova said:

I think, that GRRM has intentionally ended Targaryen history where he did, because to reveal their further history would spoil TWOW and ADOS.

I have several theories about what happened during reighn of Aegon IV and V (I'm still in the process of reading F&B, so I don't know, whether some of this theories could be already disproved):

  • Sereney of Lys is Larra Rogare. When she was 30 years old, she faked her death, and later has returned to Westeros, and became last mistress of her own son;
  • Larra Rogare's mother is Johanna Swann, so all current Swanns, including Kingsguard Balon Swann, are working for Blackfyres;
  • The Bastard of Harrenhal is a secret son of Aegon IV and his own bastard-daughter, Jeyne Lothston;
  • Petyr Baelish' great grandfather, the sellsword from Braavos, hired by Lord Corbray, is son of the Bastard of Harrenhal, and thus Littlefinger is Aegon IV's great great great grandson (for example, Dany is Aegon IV's great great great great granddaughter, so Littlefinger has less generations between him and Aegon IV, than Dany);
  • Besides bastard-son in Braavos, the Bastard of Harrenhal also had legitimate children in Westeros. After he was knighted or got married, his last name became Whent. The Bastard of Harrenhal was grandfather of Lady Shella Whent. Minisa Whent was married to Hoster Tully, so Littlefinger and Catelyn are cousins (probably, third cousins). Hoster's children have a bit of dragonblood, thru their Whent line, so Robert Arryn, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon, Edmure Tully and his child are all dragonseeds. Maybe, they are Rhaegar's seven rubies;
  • Varys and Illyrio's wife, Serra, are siblings, and descendants of Blackfyres or Targaryens (which is basically the same thing, because a dragon is still a dragon, whether it's red green or black);
  • The Ghost of High Heart is Rohanne Webber-Lannister, and Jenny of Oldstones, wife of Duncan Targaryen, was her daughter;
  • Jenny of Oldstones is Varys' mother, he's a Spider because thru his maternal grandmother he is a Webber (and Lannister thru his maternal grandfather, Gerold Lannister);
  • Barristan Selmy is bloodrelated to Aenys Blackfyre, probably, he is Aenys' grandson;
  • Septa Lemore is Lady Jeyne Swann, and she is fAegon' mother, and the father is Barristan Selmy;
  • The septa, that was escorting Lady Jeyne, when they were attacked by Kingswood Brotherhood, and then saved by Barristan, was Shiera Seastar in a shadow-glamour (same as Maynard Plumm from The Mystery Knight novel was actually Lord Bloodraven in a shadow-mask, like Mance Rayder/Rattleshirt in ADWD);
  • Shiera Seastar and Blackfyres are somehow connected to the Tragedy at Summerhall;
  • Shiera Seastar is still alive, furthermore she is shadowbinder Quaithe and the Three-eyed Crow;
  • Maester Marwyn, Mirri Maz Duur, and Euron Greyjoy are ex-disciples of Shiera Seastar;
  • Shiera has lured Bloodraven beyond The Wall, and binded him to the Weirwood, same as in Arthurian legends Morgana le Fey did to her lover, wizard Merlin.
  • Old Nan is the girl from Bran's vision, that was kissing with a tall knight. And that knight was Duncan the Tall. So Hodor is Duncan's descendant.

If any of those theories are correct, then revealing any information about Targaryen history further than reighn of Viserys II, would spoil many things from the future books.

 

Wtf

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On 11/28/2018 at 1:56 PM, Megorova said:

I think, that GRRM has intentionally ended Targaryen history where he did, because to reveal their further history would spoil TWOW and ADOS.

You don't think there is a simpler reason? 136 is about the half way mark of the Targaryen history. 

 

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On 11/28/2018 at 1:21 AM, Dukhasinov said:

I have finally finished Fire and Blood after three days of ignoring my wife and children, and, as enjoyable as it was, the only burning question that I had when I opened the book remained unanswered when I finished it, mostly because of where it ended. That question was, "What happened to the dragons?" TWOIAF left me with "Morning did not live long." Are you kidding me? What happened to Morning! The fact that I now know that she lived long enough to be ridden only makes the mystery all the more urgent. What happened to Silverwing after she went wild in the Reach? What happened to the Cannibal and Sheepstealer? Why didn`t any more dragon eggs hatch? For that matter, WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DEAD DRAGON EGGS? Dragon eggs are apparently worth a fortune, even when no-one expects them to hatch, so what happened to the eggs on Dragonstone? I was hoping to learn that Aegon III actively sought to have the last of them killed, and I`m still pretty sure that`s how it went. Were they really hurting for space so badly that they had to end the book at the end of the Regency? With everything that goes on between the Dance and Robert`s Rebellion, (the misrule of Aegon the Unworthy, the Blackfyre Rebellions, Baelor and the Maidenvault, the integration of Dorne, etc, etc...) was there really not enough meat left over for Fire and Blood II that they had to leave that one issue to dangle in front of my nose for another few years? I swear, ASOIAF is like an abusive relationship. It neglects, ignores, and abuses me, but I love it so much. I don`t mean to make it angry with me. I know it can be better if I just have more patience. 

George R. R. Martin discovered long ago that his fans will entertain themselves.  All he needs to do is plant the seeds to inspire the imagination.  Revelation ends all speculation.  I'm not saying I agree with this style of storytelling.  It's just the way of the Martin.   Imagine where the fans create their own story.  He plants the seed and the fans water it, tend it, fertilize it with blood sacrifice (ala the Starks).  He grows his garden that way.  We, like the servant rat men in the Palace of Dust, tirelessly and with dedication, analyze and build theories.  

 

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On 11/28/2018 at 1:23 AM, Falcon2909 said:

Surprisingly, F&B throws out more questions than answers.

That is our author's style.  

On 11/28/2018 at 7:19 AM, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

That's the thing, Fire and Blood, along with The World of Ice & Fire are written from a maester's biased perspective. As interesting and unique as that makes the book, it also means a great deal of the information we read could've been false, and there is also alot of information that the maesters wouldn't be privy to. 

Correct.  Though there is enough there to build theories but none to build tight conclusions from.

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Not sure why you expected to learn about Morning, Silverwing, and the Cannibal in FaB. It was obvious that the fate of the dragons surviving the Dance and surviving the Regency era would not be covered by a book covering only the time until 136 AC.

Sheepstealer's story is finished, though. The encounter in the Mountains of the Moon is the last time civilized people encountered him. Perhaps somebody is mentioning stumbling on his carcass in the next volume, but it seems very unlikely he is going to show up again.

The Cannibal and Silverwing and Morning should all have a role to play during the reign of the Dragonbane, most likely connected to the aspirations of Alys Rivers and her son by Prince Aemond.

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11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You don't think there is a simpler reason? 136 is about the half way mark of the Targaryen history. 

 

Now it's year 300 AC (after conquest), and there are still Targaryens (and their bastard-relatives) that are still alive (such as Dany, Jon, Bloodraven, maybe Shiera, maybe Varys or Illyrio, maybe fAegon), so half way mark would have been 150, not 136. And Larra Rogare supposedly died in 145, thus whatever really happened to her, would have been covered in F&B, if it was writen until year 150. But because F&B ended where it ended, it isn't known what happened to Larra, thus everything's possible, at least until GRRM will reveal Targaryens' further history, either in TWOW or ADOS or F&B-V2.

Also, what's the source of information abour Larra's death? This? ->

~~~~

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Larra_Rogare

Died In 145 AC[2], at Lys

[2] The World of Ice and Fire AMA

"Elmer says, “I had a question. Larra Rogare is mentioned to have left Westeros at some point…do we know when? I assume she’s ot present in our timeline?

Jyana says, “I’m flipping through, too, but all my questions would be of the, “Can we have someone from Yi Ti show up at some point?” variety, which. Y’know.”

Balerion says, “Not opposed to some plot where a scholar or adventurer of Yi Ti comes along to record the histories of the barbarians out west.”

Balerion says, “Larra’s not around. Let me see…”

You say, “That reminds me, there are a few things we need to get into the family trees now that the book is out, stuff we felt was too spoilery beforehand.”

Balerion says, “Oh, another feast day: Smith’s Day”

Balerion says, “So, yeah, the Seven each have a feast day except maybe the Stranger…”

Jyana says, “Don’t think I’m not tucking that Yi Ti thing away for later.”

Balerion says, There it is. She goes back to Lys in 139, and passes away in 145.

Elmer says, “Thanks!” "

~~~~

This -> "There it is", they were flipping thru the World Book, and supposedly there found info about year of Larra's departure from Westeros, and the year of her death, but there's no information like that in the Book. What was there is this -> "His brother, Prince Viserys - who in his last years served as his Hand - had the gift of charm, but he himself grew stern after his wife abandoned him and their children for her native Lys." <- year of departure isn't given, same as the year of her supposed death. Nowhere in the book.

And if they were using some other notes for information, that wasn't actually included in the World Book, then it's NOT A CANON. Thus, so far, there's no confirmation of Larra's death, or time of her death. So for now it is possible, that Serenei of Lys is Larra Rogare, or could be her.

   
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Although it's true we have many many more questions, the matter of dragons is fairly resolved in my mind.    It is not so much the existence of dragons, which plays a major part in the magical scheme, but the birth of new dragons that speaks to me.   Dany's dragons are a miracle.  The dragons who survived the Dance left the realms of men and played no part in the continued reign of Targaryans.   Men had to fend for themselves, even special men such as Targaryans.   Their rule did not last and they were overthrown.   It was dragons that brought the 7 kingdoms to heel in the 1st place.   Seems to me they were not great rulers in their turns as insipid madness eventually reared its face in nearly all of them.   The price of greatness?   

Magic existed without domesticated dragons, but grew exponentially with the advent of Dany's miracles.   Wildfyre suddenly works again--is it possible it did not during Mad Aery's reign?   Warg and skinchanging powers stretch and yawn as well as necromancy and ancient races resurfacing.   Those dragons that survived the dance may have kept a bookmark or been tokens of the most powerful forces of Fire Magic, but it is the dominion of man over dragons that seems to really spark the power of fire magic.    In turn I suspect it will be man's mastery over Ice magic or Water magic in Euron's case, that decides the future of all men.   

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Dragons?  This shit will be covered in next book, I don't doubt it. We have a number of unanswered questions which will never be answered at all:

  • What happened during Century of Blood? 
  • Why Aegon and his sisters didn't have kids before Aenys?
  • What was in Dornish Letter?
  • What was the matter with Maegor's kids?
  • How did Maegor die?
  •  
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23 hours ago, Megorova said:

Now it's year 300 AC (after conquest), and there are still Targaryens (and their bastard-relatives) that are still alive (such as Dany, Jon, Bloodraven, maybe Shiera, maybe Varys or Illyrio, maybe fAegon), so half way mark would have been 150, not 136.

   

And there had been Targaryens for centuries before 0 AC.

But Glyndayn's book is titled "Fire and Blood: Being a History of the Targaryen Kings of Westeros". This only covers 0 AC to 283 AC, and therefore, ending the first of two volumes at 136  makes perfect sense.

 

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On 11/27/2018 at 10:21 PM, Dukhasinov said:

I have finally finished Fire and Blood after three days of ignoring my wife and children, and, as enjoyable as it was, the only burning question that I had when I opened the book remained unanswered when I finished it, mostly because of where it ended. That question was, "What happened to the dragons?" TWOIAF left me with "Morning did not live long." Are you kidding me? What happened to Morning! The fact that I now know that she lived long enough to be ridden only makes the mystery all the more urgent. What happened to Silverwing after she went wild in the Reach? What happened to the Cannibal and Sheepstealer? Why didn`t any more dragon eggs hatch? For that matter, WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DEAD DRAGON EGGS? Dragon eggs are apparently worth a fortune, even when no-one expects them to hatch, so what happened to the eggs on Dragonstone? I was hoping to learn that Aegon III actively sought to have the last of them killed, and I`m still pretty sure that`s how it went. Were they really hurting for space so badly that they had to end the book at the end of the Regency? With everything that goes on between the Dance and Robert`s Rebellion, (the misrule of Aegon the Unworthy, the Blackfyre Rebellions, Baelor and the Maidenvault, the integration of Dorne, etc, etc...) was there really not enough meat left over for Fire and Blood II that they had to leave that one issue to dangle in front of my nose for another few years? I swear, ASOIAF is like an abusive relationship. It neglects, ignores, and abuses me, but I love it so much. I don`t mean to make it angry with me. I know it can be better if I just have more patience. 

LOL, first we were waiting nearly a decade for winds and now we have to wait for him to start another book :rofl::rofl::rofl:

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21 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

This only covers 0 AC to 283 AC, and therefore, ending the first of two volumes at 136  makes perfect sense.

Half of 283 is 141.5, which covers time of Larra's departure from 7K in 139. So I still think, that the reason why GRRM has ended first volume where he ended it, is because writing further would have spoiled certain secrets from current plot, for TWOW and ADOS. Whether I'm right or wrong, we will find out later.

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29 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Half of 283 is 141.5, which covers time of Larra's departure from 7K in 139.

It's just not workable to end a book at the sixth moon of a year just because it happens to be the arithmetic middle point. So GLyndayn would look for an adequate stop point nearby.

Ending the first half of your Targaryen story at the end of the Regency makes perfect sense from an historical perspective. It's marks a change of policies and a renovation of the Small Council. It enables to continue with the immediate aftermath of the Dance just after the civil war, and still maintain the entire rule of Aegon III himself in a single volume.

The king's sister in-law leaving court is a completely irrelevant event in comparison. Just a footnote, in the grand scheme of things.

The idea that Larra left court and returned some decades later to become the lover of her son is so absurd in itself, that it doesn't really merit serious discussion. But it's worth mentioning that by the time Shiera Seastar was born, Larra Rogare would be past her childbearing years.

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I am not sure where this kind of crackpot theory is coming from about Larra. Is it because she was rumoured to use the magic of the strange Lysene gods? Because clearly, that could not be the bias of Westerosi subjects not liking a foreign woman married into the royal family, of course, she had to be regularly transforming into cats. And we all know that two characters from the same location have to always be the same person.

I am okay with theories with some real substance like B+M=S, but Larra=Serenei? I suppose there just can't be two Lyseni women with Targaryen connections within the same century.

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21 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

The idea that Larra left court and returned some decades later to become the lover of her son is so absurd in itself, that it doesn't really merit serious discussion. But it's worth mentioning that by the time Shiera Seastar was born, Larra Rogare would be past her childbearing years.

It's not absurd, if the reason why Larra returned to 7K, is because she needed dragon blood, for magic purposes she needed to have a baby with her own son.

If Larra/Serenei was user of blood magic, then she was young, even when she was 63-69 (Larra was born in 115, Shiera between 178 and 184). It was confirmed in F&B, that Larra was a magic-user, and it is known from The Sworn Sword, that Shiera was a shadowbinder and a user of blood magic. During Larra's years at court, many children disappeared, presumably they were sacrificed to Gods in exchange for youth(?) beauty(?) immortality(?) or something else. And what about Melisandre and her shadow-babies? How old is she? What about the Undying? It's a world with magic, so everything is possible, even a baby born by 63-69-years old mother, that looks like she's in her 30s.

If Craster had children with his own daughters, and according to rumours, Jeyne Lothston, Aegon IV's mistress, was his bastard-daughter, then it's not impossible, that GRRM had used this sort of thing in his books for a third time. Jeyne's dismissal from court looks suspicious. The official reason, why she was sent away, was because she supposedly caught a pox from Aegon, which he had caught from a whore he had been seeing since Lady Bethany's death. But it is known, that Targaryens are immune to pox, so there's no way that he could have infected Jeyne. Furthermore, Jeyne herself was half-Targaryen, so she was also immune. So the pox was just an excuse to send her away, when she became pregnant, and the Bastard of Harrenhal is her and Aegon's son (founder of House Whent of Harrenhal and Littlefinger's ancestor <- it's a theory). The point is, is that GRRM did used in his books plot-line with close incest, like father-daughter, so why not use mother-son?

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