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Lord Varys

[spoiler] Larys Strong

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2 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

@Lord Varys

Wrong. Gwayne was second-in-command.

Oh, right, I always confuse these two.

But it still seems that the commander of the City Watch no longer had a regular seat on the council in Viserys I's and Aegon II's days.

Edited by Lord Varys

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Larys definetly knew Daemon and Mysaria knew all the hidden passages in the  Red Keep. 

In his own way, I believe he felt by killing Breakbones he was protecting  Rhaenyra's kids and appeasing Alicent Hightower. When Aemond had his eye cut out, Viserys didn't  punish Luke at all. Instead, Aegon and Aemond were chided  about calling the Strongs bastards. Larys knew to keep the peace, most of his family had to die and go away. 

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On 11/28/2018 at 3:41 PM, Lord Varys said:

Does anybody understand this guy?

I just hope the other Lord Varys gets a motivation that's more transparent than - 'well, we have no real idea why he did what he did.'

 

I think that gets right to the heart of it. One of the most striking things about F+B for me was the feeling of recognition and similarity with current characters and situations.

Two people so deep in the game their truths may never known?

Edited by hiemal

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Larys Strong might just have been one of those people, like Charles (the Bad) of Navarre, or Jonadab, who enjoy intrigue and shit-stirring for their own sakes.

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My impression is that Larys was Daemon's man the whole time.

IMHO, Daemon's ultimate goal was the IT, for him... Or for his own children. To achieve this after his failure to do so in his younger years, he needed Rhaenyra because he could marry her (and become King consort at least) and have legitimate heirs but he also had to keep the chaos alive so that the older children of Rhaenyra would be taken out of the equation. Varys saw to that for him: in the end, Daemon's line is on the throne.

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Guy was a mystery if Dance was ever done in a POV so want to hear what others thought of him. He single handedly saved the greens and doomed them at the same time.

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I think that Larys is GRRM's take on Honest Iago. No personal feelings, no (obvious) motivation, no attempt to explain or justify, or in any way talk about his actions. Just the puppeteer behind the scenes, who seems to enjoy shit-stirring above all else. Shakespearian villain at it's finest.

Nevertheless, I must say that I like @Jô Maltese's theory that the Clubfoot was playing Daemon's game all along.

Edited by nikstar3

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Personally I think Larys was Green to begin with but only because he genuinely thought they were the hands down winners. I think he genuinely supported Aegon and did everything he could to help them win the war, although at some point that became less 'I am in full support of this faction' and more 'I'm going to die if the other faction find me'. And he suceeded in the end, although it was close. Except his entire family got wiped out along the way and by the end the Green's were determined to kamakazi themselves (The Blacks had a dragon, the greens did not; they were alienating the Velaryons who were the only defence against the Vale's invasion; their only remaining army was the Baratheon, while the Blacks had two armies less than a week away and despite all that, Aegon & Alicent would not sue for peace). So he turned to the only other option left in the form of Aegon III. Now whether revenge and discontent with the Greens over their actions towards his kin or simple self preservation were his primary motivators in killing Aegon II, I don't know. But I don't think he was playing any sort of elaborate long game by which he intended to become Hand of the King for Aegon the younger all along.

I don't think he was Daemon's contact with the Greens. I think that was Largent. Makes most sense to me.

But I do think he killed Harwin and Lyonel.

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1 hour ago, Adam Yozza said:

Personally I think Larys was Green to begin with but only because he genuinely thought they were the hands down winners. I think he genuinely supported Aegon and did everything he could to help them win the war, although at some point that became less 'I am in full support of this faction' and more 'I'm going to die if the other faction find me'. And he suceeded in the end, although it was close. Except his entire family got wiped out along the way and by the end the Green's were determined to kamakazi themselves (The Blacks had a dragon, the greens did not; they were alienating the Velaryons who were the only defence against the Vale's invasion; their only remaining army was the Baratheon, while the Blacks had two armies less than a week away and despite all that, Aegon & Alicent would not sue for peace). So he turned to the only other option left in the form of Aegon III. Now whether revenge and discontent with the Greens over their actions towards his kin or simple self preservation were his primary motivators in killing Aegon II, I don't know. But I don't think he was playing any sort of elaborate long game by which he intended to become Hand of the King for Aegon the younger all along.

I don't think he was Daemon's contact with the Greens. I think that was Largent. Makes most sense to me.

But I do think he killed Harwin and Lyonel.

Before I thought Daemon killed Harwin and Lyonel but after reading Fire and Blood I think Larys did it. 

Edited by SerBronnsMullet

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So Varys is going to survive a long time, until Jon gets to KL to take his head.

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I think there are three likely options

Larys was a Greens loyalist:

The master of whispers was loyal for as long as he could. When Kings landing fell he remained to undermine the Blacks from within. Perkin the Flea and his puppet boy king were both arranged for by Larys who only used them to kick the Blacks from the capitol. He rejoined Aegon as intended and only poisoned him when there was no other option. 

Larys was a mere survivalist:

Larys kept siding with the winning team or those most likeliest to kill him if he refused. He thought the Greens would win and saw Ser Cole kill a man objecting to their aims so he wisely chose their side to keep his head. Rhaeny's growing mental instability made it likely she would hang him even if he bend the knee so he didn't and undermined her to survive. He then joined Perkin when he seemed to be winning and swiftly abandoned him for the returning Aegon II. Lastly he tried joining the winning side when Aeagon II's cause was doomed and ran out of sides to defect to when the war ended. 

Larys was a master schemer aiming:

Larys always intended both sides to exterminate each other and to get his hands on an easily manipulated boy king as his puppet. He let Aemond and Cole self destruct in the Riverlands, then brought down Rhaenyra and finally poisoned Aegon II in order to get both claimants out of the way. Larys succeeded in his plot and would control young Aegon III as his puppet. And then a Stark just happened to pass by....

Edited by Daemon of the Blacks

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On 2/10/2019 at 3:34 PM, Daemon of the Blacks said:

And then a Stark just happened to pass by....

I think even without Cregan's Hour of the Wolf, Larys would have been doomed. Best-case scenario, Aegon III would have him executed once he came of age. No one would have trusted him after his shenanigans with Trystane Truefyre; he only managed to stick around for so long because of the chaos in Aegon II's last months of reign.

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1 hour ago, Martin Lasarte said:

I think even without Cregan's Hour of the Wolf, Larys would have been doomed. Best-case scenario, Aegon III would have him executed once he came of age. No one would have trusted him after his shenanigans with Trystane Truefyre; he only managed to stick around for so long because of the chaos in Aegon II's last months of reign.

Young Aegon III thought Larys was his buddy. That's what he says to Lord Cregan.

One assumes he only understood the Perkin-Larys connection during the trial conducted by Cregan - if understood that at all.

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Being connected to Perkin(if not outright being his boss) might even have endeared Larys to Aegon more since Perkin's men saved his half sister. While Aegon doesn't seem completely comfortable around Daemon's daughters like he's with Viserys there seems to be at least some bond with them. 

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Personaly I always thought it was Daemon who burned the Strongs. Larys was able to smuggle Aegon II from KL, but he hadn't secret dungeons in Harrenhal (at least AFAIK) and we had no proof the Clubfoot was a ninja, able to sneak out of KL, sneak into the castle, burn a giant tower and come back to KL before nobody suspects. Daemon was trying to free the way to marry his niece. Old lord Strong was just colateral damage. 

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Another option is that Larys wasn't as vile as everybody thinks. He suspects Daemon killed his brother and father, so he sincerely joins the Greens side, saves Aegon and the children, and undermines Rhaenyra's reign. Then when Aegon starts ruling and he saws the king is as cruel as Rhaenyra, and how hopeless is fighting, loses faith quickly and changes sides again. When the Hour of the Wolf arrives, he is tired of everything and choses the Stranger as his king.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, the Last Teague said:

Another option is that Larys wasn't as vile as everybody thinks. He suspects Daemon killed his brother and father, so he sincerely joins the Greens side, saves Aegon and the children, and undermines Rhaenyra's reign. Then when Aegon starts ruling and he saws the king is as cruel as Rhaenyra, and how hopeless is fighting, loses faith quickly and changes sides again. When the Hour of the Wolf arrives, he is tired of everything and choses the Stranger as his king.

I really can't figure him out, mostly because of  claim that Daemon had ears on the small council, which casts doubt  and him playing the sides when Aegon II is reinstated.

 "The prince still had friends in the low places of King’s Landing, and followers amongst the gold cloaks. Unbeknownst to King Aegon, the Hand, or the Queen Dowager, he had allies at court as well, even on the green council…"

Though he was really efficient in aiding Green side in arranging escapes of royal family and possibly instigating various events.

 Though at the end  he showed some sort of mettle with accepting his death , he could have easily escaped to Essos and continued plotting like some other did.

I doubt he had killed his father and brother, Breakbones and Clubfoot are too much on the nose with association of  Sandor and Gregor (edit:  seeing from Wiki as Clubfoot is birth defect than probably the association doesn't hold) . My guess of culprit is Alys Rivers she had thing for fire.

Edited by Eltharion21

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5 hours ago, the Last Teague said:

Personaly I always thought it was Daemon who burned the Strongs. Larys was able to smuggle Aegon II from KL, but he hadn't secret dungeons in Harrenhal (at least AFAIK) and we had no proof the Clubfoot was a ninja, able to sneak out of KL, sneak into the castle, burn a giant tower and come back to KL before nobody suspects. Daemon was trying to free the way to marry his niece. Old lord Strong was just colateral damage. 

Nobody says that Larys personally burned Harrenhal. He would have had friends and agents there.

Daemon had no motive to kill Harwin Strong. He had been already separated from Rhaenyra as per the king's command, and it seems he and Rhaenyra already had an affair considering that she gave birth to Aegon the Younger in the same year, an affair that may have started when Rhaenyra started to comfort Daemon after Laena's death - before Laenor himself had died, triggering the eventual return of the Strongs to Harrenhal.

2 hours ago, the Last Teague said:

Another option is that Larys wasn't as vile as everybody thinks. He suspects Daemon killed his brother and father, so he sincerely joins the Greens side, saves Aegon and the children, and undermines Rhaenyra's reign. Then when Aegon starts ruling and he saws the king is as cruel as Rhaenyra, and how hopeless is fighting, loses faith quickly and changes sides again. When the Hour of the Wolf arrives, he is tired of everything and choses the Stranger as his king.

Oh, well, he has every reason to resent the Greens from the moment Aemond Targaryen butchered his entire family. Unfortunately, that was right after he had saved Aegon II's ass and his children, yet nobody was thanking him for that. Why he did not come around to Rhaenyra's side after that seems to be rather strange if you consider his options.

1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

I really can't figure him out, mostly because of  claim that Daemon had ears on the small council, which casts doubt  and him playing the sides when Aegon II is reinstated.

Larys Strong is indeed the main suspect for this mysterious source. I mean, he is the guy who supposedly had them swear a blood oath. Considering his ugly betrayal and regicide later on he clearly wasn't sincere there, so there must have been some other agenda going on, and playing both sides against each clearly plays a crucial role there.

I mean, the guy Larys Strong clearly supports at one point is Trystane Truefyre, possibly indicating that his endgame was actually about him controlling the throne. He only changed his opinion on that one when he learned Rhaenyra was dead and Aegon II no longer some cripple hidden on Dragonstone - then he may have just arranged his murder - but actually reunited with his (dying) dragon and in control of the island. That is when Borros Baratheon made his move, and also the point when Trystane Truefyre was abandoned by his followers thanks to the machinations of Larys Strong.

In fact, if Larys Strong is supposed to be a strong a parallel to Varys as his overall behavior and name suggests (at least as Varys is seen by people who watch him without ever getting into his confidence) then the betrayal of both Trystane Truefyre and Aegon II may actual foreshadow the ultimate betrayal of Prince Aegon - I really can see Varys welcoming Daenerys Targaryen in KL the way Larys welcomed the Lads.

Aegon is an important piece of Varys' game, but only as long as he has a chance to succeed. If he fails or makes severe mistakes or behaves in an undesirable way Varys will discard him.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/12/2019 at 1:00 PM, the Last Teague said:

Another option is that Larys wasn't as vile as everybody thinks.

Larys is a dead man with no successors. It is thus easy to pin anything and everything on Larys in a chronicle written by a maester close to the royal household. Just like it was easy to pin anything and everything on Unwin Peake, given his House's fall from grace by the time of Gyldayn.

Take Aegon II's poisoning. Gyldayn uses some mysterious source to base his story on. The source is never named. There is no explanation to how would the source overhear two men conspiring to poison the King. One would think a spymaster would know better than to yell to all and sundry about such plans. Gyldayn's rampant speculations aside, Corlys was the only man to confess to the crime on his own - the rest of the alleged conspirators were either placed under duress or never confessed to anything. And since there was never any kind of proper investigation, it's all a matter of conjecture and theories.

The things we know for certain Larys did - like his efforts to save Aegon II's children - are quite reasonable and not at all vile.

 

Edited by Myrish Lace

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Posted (edited)
On 12/5/2018 at 6:20 PM, Jô Maltese said:

My impression is that Larys was Daemon's man the whole time.

IMHO, Daemon's ultimate goal was the IT, for him... Or for his own children. To achieve this after his failure to do so in his younger years, he needed Rhaenyra because he could marry her (and become King consort at least) and have legitimate heirs but he also had to keep the chaos alive so that the older children of Rhaenyra would be taken out of the equation. Varys saw to that for him: in the end, Daemon's line is on the throne.

Strike that. Re-reading the series and the TV show threads, I have just realised that Larys may not only mirror Varys, but foreshadow Tyrion's arc as well. And Rhaenyra may mirror Cersei more than Dany.

Indeed, the facts below are not only similar to Varys' storyline but also Tyrion's:

  • Larys is a cripple
  • Larys escaped the wrath of the new Queen through a secret passage in the Red Keep
  • Larys may have killed his father - and IIRC his brother was not supposed to be there and die as well no, the other way round
  • Larys is probably the real uncle of Rhaenyra's first children (2 boys and one girl 3 boys): did he ever bet against his own family?

And this... Larys was charged with plotting King Aegon II Targaryen's (= Dany's?) murder. During the Judgement of the Wolf, Lord Cregan Stark (= Jon?) presided over Larys's trial and Larys chose death over the Wall and was subsequently executed. His death brought an end to his House (= the Lannisters?).

 

ETA: following @Adam Yozza's comments below

Edited by Jô Maltese
following @Adam Yozza's comments below

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