[SPOILERS] Orphan-Maker

[Paxter Redwyne]

Anyone have idea what Unwin did with valyrian sword Orphan-Maker? Did he kept the sword or gave it back to the Roxtons? Unwin did not seem to be guy who would easily give up something to other people that he can profit from, but Gormon no longer had the sword during Second Blackfyre Rebellion, so it suggests that Peakes lost the sword at some point or Gormon just kept it safely in his castle.

[Lord Varys]

One assumes it ended up where Unwin Peake ended up after Aegon III and Viserys were through with him.

This man is not going to get away with what he did.

Could be the Roxton got it back, could be it was given to somebody else.

[Paxter Redwyne]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

One assumes it ended up where Unwin Peake ended up after Aegon III and Viserys were through with him.

This man is not going to get away with what he did.

Could be the Roxton got it back, could be it was given to somebody else.

It would be nice to know that after Regency was over Aegon III punished Unwin for his crimes, but as for now we don't know what happened to Unwin later.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

It would be nice to know that after Regency was over Aegon III punished Unwin for his crimes, but as for now we don't know what happened to Unwin later.

Sure, perhaps the man lived another thirty years happily ever after, but somehow I don't think he did that. Regardless whether he was involved in the plot, people believed he was involved, and the plot nearly killed the king and the queen, not to mention that he tried to destroy Larra Rogare to marry a King Viserys II to his daughter.

Aegon III and Viserys would have to be utterly toothless if they let that slide. Even if the man didn't do anything afterwards, he has to die for what he tried to pull. Evidence or not. And a king can arrange such things.

But I'm actually more inclined to believe is going to involve himself in one of those fake Daeron conspiracies. I don't think he is smart enough to throw in his lot with Aemond's son.

It is also quite telling, I think, that he has neither sons nor grandsons, just his daughter Myrielle. If he were attainted and executed the explanation that the lordly line of House Peake continued might be that his nephews or cousins distanced themselves from him in time - or actively helped to put him down.

I'd also not be surprised if it turned out that Aegon III took the first of the three Peake castles whereas Daeron II only took the second one. Egg may have misremembered there.

Also something we might discuss here: This Clarice Osgrey woman might imply that our good Ser Eustace was sugar-coating his motivation to side with Daemon Blackfyre. If the Osgreys are involved in whatever Unwin Peake might do later - or if Aegon III concludes that Lady Clarice had had any part in the attempt on himself and his wife (or that on his previous wife, Queen Jaehaera) - then the Osgreys may not exactly be great fans of the kings of House Targaryen by the time Daemon Blackfyre raises his banner...

[Paxter Redwyne]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, perhaps the man lived another thirty years happily ever after, but somehow I don't think he did that. Regardless whether he was involved in the plot, people believed he was involved, and the plot nearly killed the king and the queen, not to mention that he tried to destroy Larra Rogare to marry a King Viserys II to his daughter.

Oh, I surely agree that he deserve punishment. Killing poor Jaehaera alone would be enough to execute him. He commited high treason and should not even deserve the honor of death by sword. However knowing his character he might try to demand trial by combat if he was ever put on the trial.

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But I'm actually more inclined to believe is going to involve himself in one of those fake Daeron conspiracies. I don't think he is smart enough to throw in his lot with Aemond's son.

I think that would be fitting end for him to be executed for supporting fake pretender just so he can marry his daughter to the King.

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is also quite telling, I think, that he has neither sons nor grandsons, just his daughter Myrielle. If he were attainted and executed the explanation that the lordly line of House Peake continued might be that his nephews or cousins distanced themselves from him in time - or actively helped to put him down.

Unlike her father, Myrielle seemed quite nice person, but one may wonder if in years she grew bitter over being rejected by the King. If Unwin's relatives took part in the eventual fall of Unwin, I could see that Aegon III left Unwin's lands to them. It would be funny if in the end his uncle Gedmund who owed his position in the council, decided to support King instead of his nephew and became new Lord.

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Also something we might discuss here: This Clarice Osgrey woman might imply that our good Ser Eustace was sugar-coating his motivation to side with Daemon Blackfyre. If the Osgreys are involved in whatever Unwin Peake might do later - or if Aegon III concludes that Lady Clarice had had any part in the attempt on himself and his wife (or that on his previous wife, Queen Jaehaera) - then the Osgreys may not exactly be great fans of the kings of House Targaryen by the time Daemon Blackfyre raises his banner...

We can only speculate. There is 50 years between Aegon's coming of age and the Redgrass Field. Eustace Osgrey wasn't born yet, but his father was most likely already somewhere around at that time. I assume that Clarice Osgrey was sister of Unwin's mother as I think else she would be called his uncle's widow instead widowed aunt, but I can be wrong. I wonder why ser Eustace forgot about Peakes when boasting about his lineage. He mentioned Gormon Peake as one of Daemon Blackfyre greatest supporters, so surely he would like to boast about being his distant cousin.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Oh, I surely agree that he deserve punishment. Killing poor Jaehaera alone would be enough to execute him. He commited high treason and should not even deserve the honor of death by sword. However knowing his character he might try to demand trial by combat if he was ever put on the trial.

This doesn't have to granted. The Stinger did not expect to have a choice in the matter of his punishment during Jaehaerys' rant, did he?

But I'm sure Unwin wouldn't exactly be all that keen to face Sandoq...

3 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I think that would be fitting end for him to be executed for supporting fake pretender just so he can marry his daughter to the King.

For me it feels like that this will be the path laid out for him. His daughter might indeed end up being married to one of those fake Daerons.

He could play a variation of the Connington theme. Prince Daeron got a smack to the head and lay in a coma, and Lord Peake wasn't aware of it the entire time - or only intended to reveal it to the public after it was clear the prince would survive. But he miraculously woke some years after the end of the Regency, and now Lord Unwin has no other choice but to try to seat the rightful king on the throne...

3 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Unlike her father, Myrielle seemed quite nice person, but one may wonder if in years she grew bitter over being rejected by the King. If Unwin's relatives took part in the eventual fall of Unwin, I could see that Aegon III left Unwin's lands to them. It would be funny if in the end his uncle Gedmund who owed his position in the council, decided to support King instead of his nephew and became new Lord.

Ah, well, that guy seems to be pretty old already, and I doubt Aegon III is going to keep him as Master of Ships (or in any capacity). The coldness that met the Hand and the regents should only increase when Aegon III deals with people he has no reason to trust and every reason to perceive as enemies. Those pawns of Unwin's that are still at court at the end of the Regency should not exactly remain there much longer.

If they do, Aegon III would be a complete moron.

3 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

We can only speculate. There is 50 years between Aegon's coming of age and the Redgrass Field. Eustace Osgrey wasn't born yet, but his father was most likely already somewhere around at that time. I assume that Clarice Osgrey was sister of Unwin's mother as I think else she would be called his uncle's widow instead widowed aunt, but I can be wrong. I wonder why ser Eustace forgot about Peakes when boasting about his lineage. He mentioned Gormon Peake as one of Daemon Blackfyre greatest supporters, so surely he would like to boast about being his distant cousin.

Yeah, I imagine some actual blood kinship between Clarice and Unwin. But she doesn't have to be from the Standfast Osgreys, she could be from the Osgreys of Leafy Lake, making her a more distant relation of Eustace.

In any case, if Aegon III moves against the people who tried to murder him and his queen (and may have killed first queen) then one could see it not going bad for the Peakes but also for the Osgreys - hence Ser Eustace's desire to declare for the Black Dragon.

Eustace very much idealizes his past. If Clarice Osgrey met a bad end and was accused or executed because of her involvement in the murder of a queen (or some other treason) then this is not exactly something Eustace would mention to or discuss with Dunk. He is even very selective on what he tells him about him fighting for 'the king' until he is pushed.

[The Wondering Wolf]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, I imagine some actual blood kinship between Clarice and Unwin. But she doesn't have to be from the Standfast Osgreys, she could be from the Osgreys of Leafy Lake, making her a more distant relation of Eustace.

I could never make sense out of this one:

"It was on the banks of the Chequy Water that I kissed a girl for the first time. A cousin, she was, my uncle's youngest daughter, of the Osgreys of Leafy Lake."

Usually you would think the brother of your father is still a member of your very own family, except he was given his own seat and/or started his own line. But here it sounds like the Osgreys of Leafy Like were already an established branch.

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I could never make sense out of this one:

"It was on the banks of the Chequy Water that I kissed a girl for the first time. A cousin, she was, my uncle's youngest daughter, of the Osgreys of Leafy Lake."

Usually you would think the brother of your father is still a member of your very own family, except he was given his own seat and/or started his own line. But here it sounds like the Osgreys of Leafy Like were already an established branch.

That is tricky. In any case, if the uncle in question was indeed the brother of Eustace's father, they would be from the same branch and thus were likely relations of Clarice Osgrey in similar degree.

[The Wondering Wolf]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

That is tricky. In any case, if the uncle in question was indeed the brother of Eustace's father, they would be from the same branch and thus were likely relations of Clarice Osgrey in similar degree.

Maybe it would work if Eustace's father was married to a Osgrey of Leafy Lake.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Maybe it would work if Eustace's father was married to a Osgrey of Leafy Lake.

Cousin marriages resolve everything that hasn't anything to do with the time line...

[The Wondering Wolf]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Cousin marriages resolve everything that hasn't anything to do with the time line...

Thinking about the Whents?

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Thinking about the Whents?

Making a joke and thinking about the Whents and the Oakhearts and the Waynwoods, etc. We still don't know how 'the rules' about handing out family names are.

[The Wondering Wolf]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Making a joke and thinking about the Whents and the Oakhearts and the Waynwoods, etc. We still don't know how 'the rules' about handing out family names are.

GRRM is extremely capable of avoiding precedents in this area...

[Lord Varys]

13 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

GRRM is extremely capable of avoiding precedents in this area...

I take Corlys' declaration that Laenor's boys are Velaryons not Targaryens as confirmation for my idea that Jacaerys Velaryon may have sat the Iron Throne as Jacaerys Velaryon.

However, the fact that they were not called 'Targaryens' - as I thought they would as sons of the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne - actually sets a pretty strong precedent that children get the name of the father, not the mother - even if said mother is the heiress to a lordship or the throne.

[Paxter Redwyne]

Anyway, Roxtons were not mentioned to die out with death of Bold Jon, so his son or other kinsman might want to get their sword back from Unwin. Even if Unwin fought on the same side as them, I don't think they were happy that their priceless family treasure was stolen by him. Perhaps they might have took part in the fall of Unwin later in the story. 

[Maia]

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

However, the fact that they were not called 'Targaryens' - as I thought they would as sons of the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne - actually sets a pretty strong precedent that children get the name of the father, not the mother - even if said mother is the heiress to a lordship or the throne.

This makes no sense in the light of daughters having  inheritance rights and so many family names persisting over millenia, even through times when  male family members get killed en masse, which couldn't have happened with salic succession.

There are also the precedents of Talharts saying that the boy they offered as a Hornwood heir would take Hornwood name, Not just children, but also the husband of that royal Lannister  daughter taking her name and continuing her dynasty, LF telling Sansa that Harry Hardyng would take Arryn if he became Lord of the Vale name, etc. 

With Rhaenyra's sons the issue was more complicated, because her asking Viserys to name Jace a Targaryen or doing it herself early on during the Dance would have provided ammunition to those claiming that she was trying to legitimize a bastard. Also, Luke and Joff were supposed to stay Velaryons anyway until and unless they inherited the Iron Throne. And Corlys was also nursing his wounded pride after the many snubs from the royals. IMHO, that wasn't an indication of anything more than that. 

I was pretty disappointed that GRRM suddenly produced a posthumous son for Borros, rather than have one of his daughters inheriting and carrying on the name, though. Would have been deliciously ironic. I understand that he wanted to give Cassandra motivation for trying to poison Aegon III and Daenaera, but it could have easily been a younger daughter who was chosen for Aegon II. Well, Olyver-Royce Baratheon might still die, I guess... and Floris or the unnamed youngest daughter inherit.

[Paxter Redwyne]

27 minutes ago, Maia said:

I was pretty disappointed that GRRM suddenly produced a posthumous son for Borros, rather than have one of his daughters inheriting and carrying on the name, though. Would have been deliciously ironic. I understand that he wanted to give Cassandra motivation for trying to poison Aegon III and Daenaera, but it could have easily been a younger daughter who was chosen for Aegon II. Well, Olyver-Royce Baratheon might still die, I guess... and Floris or the unnamed youngest daughter inherit.

According to the MUSH, Olyver was succeeded by his uncle - brother of Borros - instead of his sisters. 

[Maia]

54 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

According to the MUSH, Olyver was succeeded by his uncle - brother of Borros - instead of his sisters. 

Thanks. I really hope, though, that GRRM has a better idea and doesn't canonize this, because this is getting ridiculous. What was the point of introducing the law of daughters inheriting after the sons, but before other male relatives, having characters in the novels repeatedly bring up that law, have it serve as motivation for their actions - only to then demonstrate that it was never followed historically. Nor was Borros's brother even mentioned either in TWoIaF nor in FaB, IIRC. Nor are so many so old noble dynasties even remotly feasible if the inheritance and the name doesn't go through women occasionally. 

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Anyway, Roxtons were not mentioned to die out with death of Bold Jon, so his son or other kinsman might want to get their sword back from Unwin. Even if Unwin fought on the same side as them, I don't think they were happy that their priceless family treasure was stolen by him. Perhaps they might have took part in the fall of Unwin later in the story. 

The fact that the man brandishes his stolen sword in front of the entire court means he doesn't give a rat's ass what the Roxtons think about that. Might be they get it back if they help to bring Lord Unwin down. But who knows at this point?

3 hours ago, Maia said:

This makes no sense in the light of daughters having  inheritance rights and so many family names persisting over millenia, even through times when  male family members get killed en masse, which couldn't have happened with salic succession.

Oh, I know it must have happened in the past, and back before the Conquest kings and powerful lord may have just done as they liked. If a Stark or Lannister or Durrandon, etc. wanted to name his daughter's son Stark, Lannister, or Durrandon that would have happened. And the same with legitimized or non-legitimized bastards who seized or inherited the throne.

Bael's son would have likely not even be raised as a bastard, never mind his birth, if Ygritte's version of the story is correct.

But things are more civilized now.

3 hours ago, Maia said:

There are also the precedents of Talharts saying that the boy they offered as a Hornwood heir would take Hornwood name, Not just children, but also the husband of that royal Lannister  daughter taking her name and continuing her dynasty, LF telling Sansa that Harry Hardyng would take Arryn if he became Lord of the Vale name, etc. 

Littlefinger never says something like that, actually. Whether Lord Harrold would rule as a Hardyng or an Arryn is completely unclear at this point. The fact that he has included the Arryn arms in his personal banner indicates that he would like to be an Arryn, but it remains to be seen whether that's going to be accepted or not.

3 hours ago, Maia said:

With Rhaenyra's sons the issue was more complicated, because her asking Viserys to name Jace a Targaryen or doing it herself early on during the Dance would have provided ammunition to those claiming that she was trying to legitimize a bastard. Also, Luke and Joff were supposed to stay Velaryons anyway until and unless they inherited the Iron Throne. And Corlys was also nursing his wounded pride after the many snubs from the royals. IMHO, that wasn't an indication of anything more than that. 

What confused me here was basically the fact that the children simply weren't Targaryens from birth. Arwyn Oakheart and Anya Waynwood's children all be the name of their mother, not just the immediate heirs. Names do not get changed when the heir comes into his lordship but they all bear the name of the mother from birth.

That this is not the case with Rhaenyra's sons is very odd, never mind who their actual father is. And while Laenor was still around the succession of Driftmark was completely irrelevant, because Rhaenyra's prince consort would have taken that seat after the death of his father, followed only by one of his sons upon his own death. But Lucerys or Joffrey Targaryen could just as well become Lords of Driftmark. It is the more prestigious name, no?

This issue is why the idea that Arwyn and Anya are actually married to Oakheart and Waynwood cousins, explaining why all their children are Oakhearts/Waynwoods.

That there is no female line which just pretends to be the male line by keeping the family name is indeed very unfortunate. Jeyne Arryn had no heirs of her own body, the Baratheon girls likely didn't inherit, and so on.