Which Freys deserve to die for what House Frey did to House Stark?

[Bernie Mac]

16 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Real world example of neutrality: Sweden let the nazis use our ports and railroads to ship stuff to/from occupied Norway in WW2, and everyone called it neutrality and pretended like its raining.

So technically the Freys could have opened the bridge and just let them pass and still claim neutrality.

Kind of a poor example given Sweden was reliant on Germany controlled borders for trade, that Germany was their biggest buyer of ore and that Germany could easily have invaded and forced their way through. 

30 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Nobody deserves to die ever. But the Freys aren't real so its not as bad wanting their deaths. 

The Freys have some scapegoat to them: all sorts of bad traits are being attached to them both in-world and without (they are despicable in a hundred different ways) and most of us (and most westerosi) are just waiting for them to get what they deserve (kill the scapegoat and kill the hundred kinds of despicable).

Just like all kinds of bad traits were attached to Jewish and black people centuries ago, they too were the 'scapegoat' of their times. 

[The Young Maester]

To the Northmen and all those lords who lost kin in the Red Wedding, it makes no difference to them. The characters have no idea who did what during the Red Wedding, so it's certain that many innocent freys such as Olyvar are due to be butchered. The women will be raped and the children will be thrown off the towers of the Twins. It won't be a pretty sight, anything that breathes and moves that contains the name Frey, will die regardless of their participation in the RW. 

[Hugorfonics]

On 12/1/2018 at 9:29 AM, norwaywolf123 said:

Everyone, some or none?

Basically everyone. Since Merret was found guilty (whos crime was drinking with intent) then I dont see how any of his fams (cut two) can claim innocence. These two of course are, 

Oliver, Robbs young squire, was absent throughout all of the RW and never wanted to leave Robbs side when Walder called back his army. Really when it comes to a discussion about massacring an entire family, you generally dont want to kill the young child because of the obvious reason, but him being innocent of his father's crime trumps his youth in this defense.

The other is our beautiful Roslin. Now shes not totally innocent but shes not totally guilty either, shes also not a Frey. Inside of her is Edmures child, Cats blood, Robbs cousin. This child, preferably before its born must die. Genna explained it as a mean for Lannister to retain control on Riverrun, where as I am thinking of Stark. Poor Edmure, poor Roslin...

On 12/1/2018 at 9:00 PM, Bernie Mac said:

He was loyal to Robb up until Robb betrayed him, took a deep stinking crap on the alliance that had seen over a thousand Frey men lose their lives. 

Lol

[Lion of the West]

EDITED: Removed some meaningless BS.

[Hugorfonics]

27 minutes ago, Blue Falcon said:

The least he could have done would be to committ suicide but apparently his "loyalty" only went so far.

What is he, a samurai? Westeros isnt ancient Rome, theres little honor in suicide. All I can think of regarding suicide is Eddards ex of a Dayne, but that is probably just a story

27 minutes ago, Blue Falcon said:

I really fail to see why Oliver should be spared. He may not have done anything in the Red Wedding but he's still a Frey and he did NOTHING to avenge the Starks after it.

Not just Olyver actually. Alesander and Perwyn as well.

All we know is they werent at the scene of the crime, does this guarantee their innocence? Of course not. But does it guarantee their guilt like Walder, Black Walder, Merritt or Jinglebell( etc) ? No. 

Cat judges Merritt because she knows hes guilty, the three absent Freys must confess their knowledge of their crimes before we agree with their sentencing. Also, we dont know if theyve done nothing to avange Robb, it's possible (however doubtful) they are.

32 minutes ago, Blue Falcon said:

As for Roslin she is as guilty as any other Frey. Once she has given Edmure his child and secure the next generation of Tullys and a re-taking of Riverrun all decency demands that she dies.

I suppose she is. Edmure likes her which makes me think she was against the RW and she was visibly uncomfortable during the wedding which backs up Edmures theory. However even if she was forced into this marriage by her heinous family, she is now Tully. I would say all decency demands she lives, but thatll shrink Sansas birthright so I agree she and the child should die, preferably by Sansas hand

[Lion of the West]

EDITED: Forget about it. I am calm now.

 

[Hugorfonics]

Edit

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 12/1/2018 at 7:58 PM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Those zombified northmen are going to come as wights.  Those northern wights will come knocking at The Twins gate and it's not to deliver pizza.  

House Frey will suffer casualties but not as great as the northmen.  A casual glance at the map will prove this.  The Others and their wights will go through the north.  All who are in their path, including Winterfell, will lose and get turned to wights.  

Stark fans seem to forget this.  I don't think the Freys will do any better against the White Walkers but the north will be devastated before the Freys have to face them.  The north may get their revenge but it's going to be a bittersweet victory.  They will get wightified and then attack the Freys.  Then soon after these same wightified northerners will get roasted on the Trident.

[Lion of the West]

20 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Id like to remind you of Sandors trial against the Brotherhood. Being born a Clegene is not a crime, and Gregors crimes remain Gregors. 

If Olyver and them were actively trying to prevent the RW and were incarcerated to make sure they didnt, how could they be found guilty of said crime?

Even if this defense is circumstantial, you are innocent until proven guilty, Merritt screams you have no witnesses until Cat says we do. She was not however a witness to Olyvers.

Idk what that means man. Roslins kid will probably look like Robb, maybe a little weaselish. How similar are the Cleganes? Or Dany and her brother? Sansa, Arya. Tyrion, Cersei. Euron, Aeron. There's like a hundred Freys, what are the chances they all act like Walder?

See my post, edited well before you made your own, again.

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 12/2/2018 at 2:18 PM, Bernie Mac said:

You are mistaken, the Twins are not located in the Neck, they are in the Riverlands.

There was plausible other options

• Robb could have taken the Kingsroad
• Robb could have sent a raven and actually asked permission at Moat Cailin rather than just turn up (notice he has since learnt his lesson as he does not simply turn up at the Gates of the Moon expecting entry)
• Robb, like the Tyrells, could have built barges to cross

Robb, like the Freys, had options, he chose the option that seemed most convenient at the time, likely knowing full well that he'd back out at the first opportunity. 

Their argument, when Cat was demanding entry, was that to do so would be breaking their oath to the crown. By not allowing the Northern army access to their lands they were being loyal to the crown. 

Robb couldn't build barges. He says as much to Catelyn:

“We’d need to build rafts to pole our steel across, helms and mail and lances, and we don’t have the trees for that. Or the time.”

Going down the KR doesn't do a whole lot either, as even if he defeats Tywin he most likely won't be able to reach RR in time to keep it from falling. He might get leverage from prisoners though.

Sending a raven to the Twins is a two-edged sword. He can open negotiations with Walder but he also gives Walder time to consider his position. Robb cannot force his way past the Twins and if he marches south of the Twins to engage Tywin, he leaves himself open to Frey blocking his retreat north. Robb's only real options were to pay the price to cross or retreat to MC and essentially disband his army, as MC could not sustain his army for any period of time). He also has no real reason to show up at the Bloody Gates. He wants the Vale's support but he's not trying to fight / march his way inside like he is to RR.

 

[Hugorfonics]

29 minutes ago, Blue Falcon said:

See my post, edited well before you made your own, again.

Ah, my bad

[Bernie Mac]

4 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Robb couldn't build barges. He says as much to Catelyn:

“We’d need to build rafts to pole our steel across, helms and mail and lances, and we don’t have the trees for that. Or the time.”

 

Of course he could have, he was at Moat Cailin for some time waiting for others to join up, his problem is that he did not plan, instead of contacting Walder to see if he would open his gates he assumed that Walder, either out of honour or fear, would allow his army through. 

It is an understandable mistake for a 15 year old with zero experience to make, but that does not stop it being a mistake. 

9 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Going down the KR doesn't do a whole lot either, as even if he defeats Tywin he most likely won't be able to reach RR in time to keep it from falling. He might get leverage from prisoners though.

Sure, but that does not stop it being an option. Robb had options, he chose to ignore them.

9 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Sending a raven to the Twins is a two-edged sword.

No, it offers him valuable information and more options. He also should of contacted the Vale rather than just assume they'd join up with him. 

Robb was hugely lucky that Stannis and Renly/the Reach were rebelling as well, something he had zero knowledge of, as he was potentially leading the North into a bloodbath. Sending ravens could have alerted him to their standing and given him even more options. 

9 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

He can open negotiations with Walder but he also gives Walder time to consider his position.

Had he known Walder's position barges could have been built, other options could have been considered rather than waste time going to Walder's doorstop, 

Had Cat gone home to Winterfell Robb's army never would have got through. 

 

2 hours ago, Blue Falcon said:

I really fail to see why Oliver should be spared. He may not have done anything in the Red Wedding but he's still a Frey and he did NOTHING to avenge the Starks after it.

First of all we don't know he has done nothing to avenge 'Robb'. But there is no reason that he should, he is not going to try and hurt his own father for Robb. Kinslaying is just as bad, if not worse, than beaking guest rights.

2 hours ago, Blue Falcon said:

 

The least he could have done would be to committ suicide but apparently his "loyalty" only went so far.

lol that is absurd. 

2 hours ago, Blue Falcon said:

As for Roslin she is as guilty as any other Frey.

She's clearly not, she's a teenage girl with little, if any, control of what is done. To suggest she and Lothar share the same guilt over the event is ridiculous. 

2 hours ago, Blue Falcon said:

 

Once she has given Edmure his child and secure the next generation of Tullys and a re-taking of Riverrun all decency demands that she dies.

Not sure you understand the word decency. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Of course he could have, he was at Moat Cailin for some time waiting for others to join up, his problem is that he did not plan, instead of contacting Walder to see if he would open his gates he assumed that Walder, either out of honour or fear, would allow his army through. 

It is an understandable mistake for a 15 year old with zero experience to make, but that does not stop it being a mistake. 

There is no wood near the Twins, they can't float the barges through the swamp, and the water is running high and fast north of the Twins. Solid chance they'd be swept downriver uncontrollably only to be able to stop at ... the Twins. 

2 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure, but that does not stop it being an option. Robb had options, he chose to ignore them.

Choosing a better option is not "ignoring the other options." He walks through every options his bannermen suggested and then chooses a hybrid of the plans. Ideally he would order Roose to march south but not engage Tywin, but that's neither here nor there.

2 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, it offers him valuable information and more options. He also should of contacted the Vale rather than just assume they'd join up with him. 

You're assuming Walder actually bothers corresponding. Then it's in paper with his seal. I'm not sure how any ravens would reach Robb, as he is marching and MC does not have a rookery. I don't see why he would. Robb did write to the Vale before he was south of the neck and got nothing in return:

“Is there word from the Eyrie? I wrote to Aunt Lysa, asking help. Has she called Lord Arryn’s banners, do you know? Will the knights of the Vale come join us?”

 

2 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Robb was hugely lucky that Stannis and Renly/the Reach were rebelling as well, something he had zero knowledge of, as he was potentially leading the North into a bloodbath. Sending ravens could have alerted him to their standing and given him even more options. 

Stannis hadn't stirred in months and wasn't responding to anyone, even Ned. Renly wasn't even crowned until after Robb had made his deal with Walder. 

2 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Had he known Walder's position barges could have been built, other options could have been considered rather than waste time going to Walder's doorstop, 

Had Cat gone home to Winterfell Robb's army never would have got through. 

That assumes that barges could have been made and effectively used to actually cross.  Mace and Tywin had a lot more resources at their disposal than Robb. 

Robb would not have been able to cross the Twins without Catelyn, that much I tend to agree with. The only other person who realistically could have treated well with Walder is BF and he's not exactly the diplomatic type.

[Lion of the West]

11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Of course he could have, he was at Moat Cailin for some time waiting for others to join up, his problem is that he did not plan, instead of contacting Walder to see if he would open his gates he assumed that Walder, either out of honour or fear, would allow his army through. 

It is an understandable mistake for a 15 year old with zero experience to make, but that does not stop it being a mistake. 

Sure, but that does not stop it being an option. Robb had options, he chose to ignore them.

No, it offers him valuable information and more options. He also should of contacted the Vale rather than just assume they'd join up with him. 

Robb was hugely lucky that Stannis and Renly/the Reach were rebelling as well, something he had zero knowledge of, as he was potentially leading the North into a bloodbath. Sending ravens could have alerted him to their standing and given him even more options. 

Had he known Walder's position barges could have been built, other options could have been considered rather than waste time going to Walder's doorstop, 

Had Cat gone home to Winterfell Robb's army never would have got through. 

 

First of all we don't know he has done nothing to avenge 'Robb'. But there is no reason that he should, he is not going to try and hurt his own father for Robb. Kinslaying is just as bad, if not worse, than beaking guest rights.

lol that is absurd. 

She's clearly not, she's a teenage girl with little, if any, control of what is done. To suggest she and Lothar share the same guilt over the event is ridiculous. 

Not sure you understand the word decency. 

Please see my edited post again. It was edited about an hour before you posted your reply.

[Bernie Mac]

3 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

There is no wood near the Twins, they can't float the barges through the swamp, and the water is running high and fast north of the Twins. Solid chance they'd be swept downriver uncontrollably only to be able to stop at ... the Twins. 

Of course there is going to be wood, Robb was just in the North, the biggest wooded area in Westeros. 

There will have been woodlands within 100 miles of the Twins, Robb simply did not want to do any other option. His most convenient option was to go through the Twins, but he had other options. 

Quote

Choosing a better option is not "ignoring the other options."

eh?

My post stated that there was other plausible options, which there clearly was. 

Quote

 

He walks through every options his bannermen suggested and then chooses a hybrid of the plans.

He does so when he was pretty much at the gates of the Twins. He put himself in that situation. At Moat Cailin his only option was not to marry a Frey to cross that bridge, there were many options.

Look I have the whole of December to buy my G/F a christmas present, if I do nothing till 4:45 on Christmas Eve and then have to overpay for a present that is on me, not the person I bought the present from. I, like Robb, will have had plenty of options, choosing to leave it to the last minute and watching the other options either become less desirable or disappear is my own fault.

Quote

 

Ideally he would order Roose to march south but not engage Tywin, but that's neither here nor there.

So you agree, other options were available. That was my whole point. 

Quote

You're assuming Walder actually bothers corresponding.

No correspondence is information. In ASOS Robb complains about the lack of replies from the Vale, he's able to figure out what that means in terms of her opening the Bloody Gate. 

Clearly Robb, now 16, has learnt from his past as he just does not turn up at the Bloody Gate. He plans ahead, actual growth in his role as a leader. 

15 year old Robb, naturally, made mistakes. One of them was just turning up at the Twins expecting passage from a Lord he barely knew. 

Quote

Stannis hadn't stirred in months and wasn't responding to anyone, even Ned. Renly wasn't even crowned until after Robb had made his deal with Walder. 

lol what is the point here? Robb trying to get more information is good. Your argument that he should not even bother because they might not even reply is incredibly short sighted.  

Quote

That assumes that barges could have been made and effectively used to actually cross.  Mace and Tywin had a lot more resources at their disposal than Robb. 

Did they? Citation?

26 minutes ago, Blue Falcon said:

Please see my edited post again. It was edited about an hour before you posted your reply.

The post I replied to was not edited. 

 

[Lion of the West]

13 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

The post I replied to was not edited.

It has been edited now

[Gendarrion]

I'm with the guys saying the Freys who did not take part in the RW be spared, but most of them definitely did probably around 80% of them might die when the Others comes sweeping their castles over, the Twins will be destroyed and will be a toll free bridge, Freys will be stripped of their title, and a landless remaining Freys will be the merciful option for what they did.

[Gendarrion]

17 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Robb was hugely lucky that Stannis and Renly/the Reach were rebelling as well, something he had zero knowledge of, as he was potentially leading the North into a bloodbath. Sending ravens could have alerted him to their standing and given him even more options. 

Can you explain to me how is this lucky? All of the Lannister forces are still against him none against the baratheon brothers.

 

17 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Of course he could have, he was at Moat Cailin for some time waiting for others to join up, his problem is that he did not plan, instead of contacting Walder to see if he would open his gates he assumed that Walder, either out of honour or fear, would allow his army through. 

It is an understandable mistake for a 15 year old with zero experience to make, but that does not stop it being a mistake. 

I doubt it's a 15 year old mistake, Robb seems to be the guy who proritize listening to advice of Roose and "Experienced" lords and knights, they could probably think of this if they know of it, cutting wood takes time, you'll need wagons, skilled builders for better rafts for the current of the trident, They also didn't know that Riverrun is under siege when they're at moat cailin, you can't blame Robb for not predicting the future, crossing the twins with Freys demands is the best option.

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Look I have the whole of December to buy my G/F a christmas present, if I do nothing till 4:45 on Christmas Eve and then have to overpay for a present that is on me, not the person I bought the present from. I, like Robb, will have had plenty of options, choosing to leave it to the last minute and watching the other options either become less desirable or disappear is my own fault.

Wow, you really think moving an army across a heavily guarded bridge is like you buys christmas present, Robb's option is far more limited than you, going to war and planning strategy is not the same as buying presents before christmas eve.
 

• Robb could have taken the Kingsroad - If he took it, he'll have to face Tywin's army which have more men and heavy cavalry than him, The lords advice him against this since they think they can still linked up with Riverlords forces, and he did took this option, Roose marched on him using the kingsroad with all of Robb's infantry,
   
• Robb could have sent a raven and actually asked permission at Moat Cailin rather than just turn up (notice he has since learnt his lesson as he does not simply turn up at the Gates of the Moon expecting entry) - They have the right to be cautious, Walder is known to side only the winning side, and this time it looks like the lannisters are winning.

  5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

  Clearly Robb, now 16, has learnt from his past as he just does not turn up at the Bloody Gate. He plans ahead, actual growth in his role as a leader. 

  15 year old Robb, naturally, made mistakes. One of them was just turning up at the Twins expecting passage from a Lord he barely knew. 

  Why would he turn up on the Vale?, as much as he's concern they are too far in the battlefield and besides her mother already went there and got help from Blackfish..

   

  5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

  Did they? Citation?

  They got 4x as many men and sitting in the Kingwood.

   

[Universal Sword Donor]

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Of course there is going to be wood, Robb was just in the North, the biggest wooded area in Westeros. 

There will have been woodlands within 100 miles of the Twins, Robb simply did not want to do any other option. His most convenient option was to go through the Twins, but he had other options. 

Yes and then you have to move the wood to the twins, something his army is not constructed to do, or the barges down a huge river running high and fast. Robb and his army are not Julius Caesar and the Roman legions. I have doubts he could have gotten across without unintentionally splitting his forces anyway.

I’d also add that even if there is wood within 100 miles, Robb doesn’t think it’s close enough and that he lacks the time to build rafts, let alone barges, as Tywin is marching north up the KR.

Quote

eh?

My post stated that there was other plausible options, which there clearly was. 

You literally said he ignored the other options, which he clearly doesn’t. He walks through them and formulates his own plan.

“Sure, but that does not stop it being an option. Robb had options, he chose to ignore them.“

Quote

He does so when he was pretty much at the gates of the Twins. He put himself in that situation. At Moat Cailin his only option was not to marry a Frey to cross that bridge, there were many options.

Look I have the whole of December to buy my G/F a christmas present, if I do nothing till 4:45 on Christmas Eve and then have to overpay for a present that is on me, not the person I bought the present from. I, like Robb, will have had plenty of options, choosing to leave it to the last minute and watching the other options either become less desirable or disappear is my own fault.

Unless robb writes to the twins from WF there’s basically no way for him to get a response. He could have sent outriders to parley but that leaves him with a response a few days out. Ravens can’t fly to where they haven’t been taught to fly. 

Quote

So you agree, other options were available. That was my whole point. 

I never disagreed. I just said that the particular option he chose was the most expeditious and best option.

Quote

No correspondence is information. In ASOS Robb complains about the lack of replies from the Vale, he's able to figure out what that means in terms of her opening the Bloody Gate. 

The bloody gate is a complete non sequitur. He’s not needing access to the vale. He just wants help from his family. This also ignores that the Lannisters were violating the KIngs peace and besieging his liege lord. Not something to count on but entirely a different scenario than asking for help from the vale.

Quote

Clearly Robb, now 16, has learnt from his past as he just does not turn up at the Bloody Gate. He plans ahead, actual growth in his role as a leader. 

Still a complete non sequitur 

Quote

15 year old Robb, naturally, made mistakes. One of them was just turning up at the Twins expecting passage from a Lord he barely knew. 

lol what is the point here? Robb trying to get more information is good. Your argument that he should not even bother because they might not even reply is incredibly short sighted.  

As far as Robb knows Stannisn and Renly are backing Joffrey. Broadcasting his plans to KL is the height of stupidity. And, once again, he’s not no way of receiving a response. 

Quote

Did they? Citation?

Robb’s army is sitting in the middle of a swamp so dangerous there’s effectively only one way in or out and has a minimal population.

macy and Tywin have 4x the men, are the two richest lords in the realm, and are situated between two towns who will have the craftsmen needed to build river worthy barges. They had to have enough resources to build 4x the barges that Robb needed so I fail to see how this is really in question.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Gendarrion said:

I'm with the guys saying the Freys who did not take part in the RW be spared, but most of them definitely did probably around 80% of them might die when the Others comes sweeping their castles over,

If 80% of the Freys die by the Others than the North, the vast lands that stand between the Wall and the Twins, will be wiped out. 

1 hour ago, Gendarrion said:

the Twins will be destroyed

The Twins are amongst the strongest castles in Winterfell and will be better stocked than most. Unless GRRM is planning on wiping out the entire North, most of the Riverlands, Vale and parts of the Westerlands and Crownlands then the Twins should survive. 

1 hour ago, Gendarrion said:

 

and will be a toll free bridge,

I find it hilarious that so many are offended over basic capitalism. That bridge is costly, both in terms of it being built, maintenance and defense. It is going to remain a toll bridge, the Freys or their replacements would be illogical to not make it work to their advantage. 

1 hour ago, Gendarrion said:

 

Freys will be stripped of their title, and a landless remaining Freys will be the merciful option for what they did.

Possibly, though I can't really see why the Crown would go to such lengths, especially in your scenario where the Others have reached the Riverlands. They'd have bigger issues to deal with and would likely lack the strength to enforce such a change. 

 

32 minutes ago, Gendarrion said:

Can you explain to me how is this lucky?

Robb decided to go to war against the Crown not knowing that Renly, Stannis and the Reach would rebel. He was potentially coming up against the majority of the realm. 

He was hugely lucky. 

32 minutes ago, Gendarrion said:

I doubt it's a 15 year old mistake, Robb seems to be the guy who proritize listening to advice of Roose and "Experienced" lords and knights,

No, that does not seem to be his priority. Robb tends to do as he pleases and is happy to reject advice he does not like. 

32 minutes ago, Gendarrion said:

they could probably think of this if they know of it, cutting wood takes time, you'll need wagons, skilled builders for better rafts for the current of the trident,

He has a 20k army with him, all the other armies seem capable of doing so, did Robb deliberately leave all the multi skilled men at home?  

32 minutes ago, Gendarrion said:

They also didn't know that Riverrun is under siege when they're at moat cailin, you can't blame Robb for not predicting the future, crossing the twins with Freys demands is the best option.

He chose to go via the Twins, rather than the kingsroad. He had no idea if Walder, who has multiple connections to the Westerlands, would let him through. 

If I turn up in the Philippines tomorrow expecting to crash at your place and you say no, my lack of better options is on me, no one else. 

32 minutes ago, Gendarrion said:

 

Wow, you really think moving an army across a heavily guarded bridge is like you buys christmas present,

No, its worse. Me buying my SO an over priced present does not hurt anyone. Robb's responsible for the defense of the North, not properly thinking of the options available is a far greater fuck up than buying a present late. 

32 minutes ago, Gendarrion said:

 

Robb's option is far more limited than you,

He limited his own options by turning up at the gates of a belligerent lord who his family had issues with. 

32 minutes ago, Gendarrion said:

 

going to war and planning strategy is not the same as buying presents before christmas eve.

Obviously.  War is far, far more serious so failing to properly plan is an even bigger mistake. 

18 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Yes and then you have to move the wood to the twins, something his army is not constructed to do,

Who's fault would that be? 

18 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

or the barges down a huge river running high and fast. Robb and his army are not Julius Caesar and the Roman legions. I have doubts he could have gotten across without unintentionally splitting his forces anyway.

lol this is really your argument? It's no better than your earlier idea that seeking information is pointless as they might not bother replying. 

18 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

You literally said he ignored the other options, which he clearly doesn’t. He walks through them and formulates his own plan.

Of course he did.  He carries on riding to the Twins knowing full well that he might not be given passage. The time to consider the options was at Moat Cailin, not when he's fully committed to one. 

18 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

Unless robb writes to the twins from WF there’s basically no way for him to get a response.

Winterfell is now the only castle/settlement in the North with ravens? 

He was at Moat Cailin for some time, a message could have been sent, alternatively a messenger could have also been sent ahead of his army. 

I get it, earlier arguments between the two of us means you will nitpick anything I say, but this argument that 15 year old Robb made no mistakes in the opening months of the war is ridiculous. 

18 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

I never disagreed.

So what's your point? The person I replied to claimed Robb had no other options. Are you arguing for the sake of it?

18 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The bloody gate is a complete non sequitur. He’s not needing access to the vale.

"but if she will not fight, so be it. I've asked only that she open the Bloody Gate for us, and provide ships at Gulltown to take us north. "

Robb has learnt from his past, just turning up and hoping for the best is not an option. 

18 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

Still a complete non sequitur 

Nope, you were mistaken as you, fairly, seemed to have forgot that Robb wanted passage. 16 year old Robb is more experienced than the boy who turned up at the Twins. It's personal growth for the character. 

18 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

As far as Robb knows Stannisn and Renly are backing Joffrey. Broadcasting his plans to KL is the height of stupidity. And, once again, he’s not no way of receiving a response. 

Are you under the impression that he could have snuck into the Riverlands without anyone noticing?

Diplomacy is an important part of warfare. 

18 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Robb’s army is sitting in the middle of a swamp so dangerous there’s effectively only one way in or out and has a minimal population.

The Twins are not located in the Neck. The idea that there is no woodlands in a 100 mile radius seems unlikely. 

18 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

macy and Tywin have 4x the men, are the two richest lords in the realm, and are situated between two towns who will have the craftsmen needed to build river worthy barges. They had to have enough resources to build 4x the barges that Robb needed so I fail to see how this is really in question.

Neither us know the circumstances. Perhaps Mance had to travel many miles out of his location to get that wood, or brought the wood hundreds of miles in the knowledge that it may be needed. Neither us know how much of an inconvenience that was. 

The reason I asked for evidence is because I knew you were just guessing, that you had zero knowledge on it being easier or harder for Mace to plan for his crossing.