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Which Freys deserve to die for what House Frey did to House Stark?


norwaywolf123

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52 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

the vast lands that stand between the Wall and the Twins, will be wiped out. 

Of course, I doubt the others will stay at the wall after breaching it.

 

53 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

The Twins are amongst the strongest castles in Winterfell and will be better stocked than most.

Harrenhal,

also I doubt Twins is as strong as Winterfell.

 

55 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Robb decided to go to war against the Crown not knowing that Renly, Stannis and the Reach would rebel. He was potentially coming up against the majority of the realm. 

He was hugely lucky. 

I recall Catelyn saying she expected Stannis crowning himself, 

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Robb tends to do as he pleases and is happy to reject advice he does not like. 

Citation? most of his actions are actually advised by the lords and blackfish.

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

He has a 20k army with him, all the other armies seem capable of doing so, did Robb deliberately leave all the multi skilled men at home? 

He doesn't have wood, and if even if he have skilled men with him it will take a lot of time, their provision are also getting low, and if you're argument again is it's his fault for not bringing wood, he can't predict the future, this is not modern warfare where there's a operation battleplan like planning every movement of your army and calling it "Operation Winter is coming" and every resources that's needed should be there, midieval warfare are unpredictable, and carrying a lot of wood for boats will slow armies down, it's like carrying a fleet in the field, Tywin did not invade Riverlands carrying them.
 

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

He chose to go via the Twins, rather than the kingsroad.

As I said earlier, he did send most of his armies down to kingsroad.

 

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

He had no idea if Walder, who has multiple connections to the Westerlands, would let him through. 

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

He was at Moat Cailin for some time, a message could have been sent, alternatively a messenger could have also been sent ahead of his army. 

Exactly, That's why he needed to be cautious dealing with him in moat cailin, he might alert Tywin that Robb is moving to Twins giving Tywin to better position himself, Ravenmail can be shot down or sending riders back and forth takes up too much time.

 

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

If I turn up in the Philippines tomorrow expecting to crash at your place and you say no, my lack of better options is on me, no one else. 

Walder did not said no, he offer demands and Robb agrees, similar to what I'll do if you turn up here.


 

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, its worse. Me buying my SO an over priced present does not hurt anyone. Robb's responsible for the defense of the North, not properly thinking of the options available is a far greater fuck up than buying a present late. 

He is protecting Riverlands, He did not assemble and army to defend the north, and he did think his option in AGOT properly, are we reading the same book?


 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

He limited his own options by turning up at the gates of a belligerent lord who his family had issues with. 

His time is more limited than his options it would seem.

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Neither us know the circumstances. Perhaps Mance had to travel many miles out of his location to get that wood, or brought the wood hundreds of miles in the knowledge that it may be needed. Neither us know how much of an inconvenience that was. 

Stannis was delayed in Storms end and when he rush to take King's landing, Mace is already building rafts out of kingswood woods while Tywin marching down south.

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Diplomacy is an important part of warfare.

It is, Robb did it quite well that when he crossed that bridge he added 4k more troops into his army.











 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Gendarrion said:

Of course, I doubt the others will stay at the wall after breaching it.

Who claimed they would?

2 minutes ago, Gendarrion said:

Harrenhal,

Harrenhal what? What does this reply even mean?

2 minutes ago, Gendarrion said:

also I doubt Twins is as strong as Winterfell.

Winterfell that has already been captured twice in the series? Winterfell that has been destroyed multiple times in the past?

And again, I don't understand your point? I made no mention of the Twins being stronger (or weaker) than either Winterfell or Harrenhal, I was just pointing out what the World of Ice and Fire says about the Frey's home

."These two keeps, now called the Twins, are amongst the strongest in the realm."

2 minutes ago, Gendarrion said:

I recall Catelyn saying she expected Stannis crowning himself, 

Nope, not at Moat Cailin, not at the Twins, not until she is at Riverrun when news reaches of Renly, she says she thought if one of them were going to rebel it would be Stannis. 

2 minutes ago, Gendarrion said:

 

Citation? most of his actions are actually advised by the lords and blackfish.

You made the original claim, not me. You claimed "most of his actions are actually advised by the lords and blackfish."

But notably Robb is advised to 

  • let Greatjon lead the attack on Tywin
  • to join Renly, Stannis, have peace, he rejected the majority of his lords suggestions at Riverrun
  • to attack Harrenhal
  • to send anyone but Theon to the Iron Islands
  • to spare Rickard Karstark

Robb frequently rejects advice. 

2 minutes ago, Gendarrion said:

He doesn't have wood,

The North has more wood than any other kingdom, he has wood. There is wooded area frequently mentioned in the Riverlands, when Arya and the Hound are on their way to the Twins they are constantly in wooded area. 

"Is this the Blackwater Rush?" They had ridden so far in rain and darkness, through trackless woods and nameless villages, that Arya had lost all sense of where they were.

Robb's problem was that he simply did not think that he'd need wood, it was not until the Twins were in sight did he realize he might need other options. Had he planned ahead he could have dealt with this. 

He was only 15 years of age, I have no idea how you can be so adamant that no mistakes were made in his first ever military operatio

 

2 minutes ago, Gendarrion said:

 

this is not modern warfare where there's a operation battleplan like planning every movement of your army and calling it "Operation Winter is coming" and every resources that's needed should be there, midieval warfare are unpredictable, and carrying a lot of wood for boats will slow armies down, it's like carrying a fleet in the field, Tywin did not invade Riverlands carrying them.

Did he not?

Tywin, in the Riverlands, was able to equip 300 mountain clan soldiers

"First, though, I have some promises of my own to keep," he said as he sliced off a wedge. "I shall require three thousand helms and as many hauberks, plus swords, pikes, steel spearheads, maces, battle-axes, gauntlets, gorgets, greaves, breastplates, wagons to carry all this—"

he had access to barges to get to Kings Landing in time and as a teenager had his men divert an entire river to beat the Reynes. 

Logistics is one of Tywin's strengths, I don't expect Robb to be anywhere near, but in the opening months of the war he was clueless about them. Expecting things to just work out is a problem in war. 

2 minutes ago, Gendarrion said:

As I said earlier, he did send most of his armies down to kingsroad.

And? 

2 minutes ago, Gendarrion said:

Exactly, That's why he needed to be cautious dealing with him in moat cailin, he might alert Tywin that Robb is moving to Twins giving Tywin to better position himself, Ravenmail can be shot down or sending riders back and forth takes up too much time.

Well then he is also going to have to make sacrifices. His lack of options at the Twins was down to his own game plan, not anybody else. 

Robb had options, he opted to be silent and not gather any information, not alert the Freys that he needed access. He had options. 

2 minutes ago, Gendarrion said:

Walder did not said no, he offer demands and Robb agrees, similar to what I'll do if you turn up here.

Walder actually did say no, it was Cat who made offers. No one made demands from Robb. 

2 minutes ago, Gendarrion said:

He is protecting Riverlands,

No, he's not. His father was arrested and he wanted him released, him marching South had zero to do with protecting the Riverlands. 

At Riverrun when the Riverlords were pleading for him to march on Tywin and drive the Westerland men away he ignored them.  In what way was he and his army protecting the Riverlands?

"Did you kill them?"
"Would I tell you if I did?" The man spat. "Likely it were wolves' work, or maybe lions, what's the difference? The wife and I found them dead. The way we see it, the place is ours now."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'd stay well clear of that kingsroad, if I were you," the man went on. "It's worse than bad, I hear. Wolves and lions both, and bands of broken men preying on anyone they can catch."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Child," said the singer, "put up that sword, and we'll take you to a safe place and get some food in that belly. There are wolves in these parts, and lions, and worse things. No place for a little girl to be wandering alone."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If there were wolves hereabouts, we'd know it," groused Lem. "Or lions. These are our woods."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A man laughed bitterly. "The lions killed Ser Wilbert a year ago. His sons are all off with the Young Wolf, getting fat in the west. You think they give a damn for the likes of us? It was the Mad Huntsman caught these wolves."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lem glowered. "Your lion friends ride into some village, take all the food and every coin they find, and call it foraging. The wolves as well, so why not us? No one robbed you, dog. You just been good and foraged."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brienne felt obligated to pass along that warning to the farmer and his wife. The man nodded as she told him, but when she was done he spat again and said, "Dogs and wolves and lions, may the Others take them all. These outlaws won't dare come too near to Maidenpool. Not so long as Lord Tarly has the rule there."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 He sent men off to Riverrun to fight but never went himself. Lions sacked his town, then wolves, then sellswords, and his lordship just sat safe behind his walls.
 
 
 
 
Apart from his grandfather's castle Robb did nothing to protect the Riverlands, the smallfolk hated them as much as they hated the Lions. 
 
 
 
 
2 minutes ago, Gendarrion said:

 

He did not assemble and army to defend the north, and he did think his option in AGOT properly, are we reading the same book?

Sorry. I'm not sure your meaning here.

2 minutes ago, Gendarrion said:

His time is more limited than his options it would seem.

He had time, he had options. At Moat Cailin he could have sent half his army ahead while the others took their time, hed then have men in the Riverlands who could do what was needed rather than be totally blindsided on the Frey's doorstop. 

 

2 minutes ago, Gendarrion said:

Stannis was delayed in Storms end and when he rush to take King's landing, Mace is already building rafts out of kingswood woods while Tywin marching down south.

Sorry, can you clarify the point you are trying to make?

The books do not let us know what problems Mace had or any forward planning he may have done to counter such problems. Cl

2 minutes ago, Gendarrion said:

 

It is, Robb did it quite well that when he crossed that bridge he added 4k more troops into his army.
 

You mean Cat did. Credit should be given to who its due.

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12 minutes ago, Chris Mormont said:

All the male Freys should pay for the Red Wedding, unless they were in the dungeons when the survivors were sent down there.  I expect that Perwyn and Oliver were imprisoned based on their objections. 

If I remember they were just sent away. If I recall wasn't Olyvar present at the following siege of Riverrun? I have some vague memory of Jaime spotting him in the Frey camp.

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7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Who's fault would that be? 

Pretty much no ones. Whether or not Robb's army has the capability to build those barges, they do not have the time or the wood. 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

lol this is really your argument? It's no better than your earlier idea that seeking information is pointless as they might not bother replying. 

No I didn't say it was pointless. I said they might not get an answer and it tips his hand. 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Of course he did.  He carries on riding to the Twins knowing full well that he might not be given passage. The time to consider the options was at Moat Cailin, not when he's fully committed to one. 

He considered the options at MC. When he first meets Catelyn after she debarks at WH, he goes through them:

Greatjon: attack Tywin down the KR

Karstark / Glovers: Maneuver around Tywin's army and go to RR

Catelyn: Stay at MC and throw back Tywin

Robb: Send infantry to meet Tywin and take horse to relieve RR

He mentions writing to the Vale, but not the Twins. Catelyn, who knows Walder and the Freys' history, never bothers to suggest it. If it were completely obvious, you think she'd have mentioned something, If anything Catelyn knew there would be a price and neglected to tell Robb.

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Winterfell is now the only castle/settlement in the North with ravens? 

He was at Moat Cailin for some time, a message could have been sent, alternatively a messenger could have also been sent ahead of his army. 

No but the settlements closest to MC is WH and that's still 200 miles that need to be covered by riders. I already acknowledged a messenger could well have been sent to the Twins, but it wouldn't really give him much headway, just a few days.

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I get it, earlier arguments between the two of us means you will nitpick anything I say, but this argument that 15 year old Robb made no mistakes in the opening months of the war is ridiculous. 

I didn't say he didn't make mistakes. I said he made the most expeditious decision given the information and 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

So what's your point? The person I replied to claimed Robb had no other options. Are you arguing for the sake of it?

I was just chiming in saying Robb took the best option available. Frankly your suggestions are worse or do nothing to advance his cause.

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

"but if she will not fight, so be it. I've asked only that she open the Bloody Gate for us, and provide ships at Gulltown to take us north. "

Robb has learnt from his past, just turning up and hoping for the best is not an option. 

Nope, you were mistaken as you, fairly, seemed to have forgot that Robb wanted passage. 16 year old Robb is more experienced than the boy who turned up at the Twins. It's personal growth for the character. 

I had completely forgotten about coming back in ASOS. I was focused on AGoT.

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Are you under the impression that he could have snuck into the Riverlands without anyone noticing?

Not one bit, but there's a fair sight between telling people a month ahead of time that you're bringing an army south to getting the news when they come out of the Neck. Armies have to muster their men. Given a few more days warning, Tywin could have marched his army more quickly up the KR and blocked Robb's army from passing at all.

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Diplomacy is an important part of warfare. 

Agreed, at least the appearance of diplomacy is important.

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The Twins are not located in the Neck. The idea that there is no woodlands in a 100 mile radius seems unlikely. 

No but the Neck is where they spent weeks mustering and marching through. 

I don't know why you think 100 miles is relevant. Certainly no one in the story thought there was wood nearby, and Robb had outriders scouting under Theon and BF. They were looking for fords for a reason. If Robb says there is no timber available to create barges / rafts, then I am going to believe he's done his homework. And, once again, even if they have the timber, they do not have the time as Tywin is marching up the river. Catelyn even warns Robb about Walder telling Tywin about his presence:

“Unless Lord Frey tells him,” Catelyn said sharply. “Theon, when you return to my uncle, tell him he is to place his best bowmen around the Twins, day and night, with orders to bring down any raven they see leaving the battlements. I want no birds bringing word of my son’s movements to Lord Tywin.”

You'd think she have brought that up earlier, but 'tis not my book.

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Neither us know the circumstances. Perhaps Mance had to travel many miles out of his location to get that wood, or brought the wood hundreds of miles in the knowledge that it may be needed. Neither us know how much of an inconvenience that was. 

The reason I asked for evidence is because I knew you were just guessing, that you had zero knowledge on it being easier or harder for Mace to plan for his crossing. 

Mace might have had to cut the wood down and drag it many miles. That we do not know. Here is what we do now:

  • Tywin is the richest man in the kingdoms
  • Mace is the second richest man in the kingdom
  • Mace has 3x as many men as Robb
  • Mace is building these barges between stony sept and Tumbler Falls, both of which are towns that are going to have craftsmen and available labor (pressed most likely) that Robb will not have access to along the kingsroad
  • There's a forest called Threepenny Wood in the vicinity of Stoney Sept

You can say I have zero knowledge, but more men and more gold make just about every task easier, especially one that requires lots of manual labor.

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2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Pretty much no ones. Whether or not Robb's army has the capability to build those barges, they do not have the time or the wood. 

No I didn't say it was pointless. I said they might not get an answer and it tips his hand. 

He considered the options at MC. When he first meets Catelyn after she debarks at WH, he goes through them:

Greatjon: attack Tywin down the KR

Karstark / Glovers: Maneuver around Tywin's army and go to RR

Catelyn: Stay at MC and throw back Tywin

Robb: Send infantry to meet Tywin and take horse to relieve RR

He mentions writing to the Vale, but not the Twins. Catelyn, who knows Walder and the Freys' history, never bothers to suggest it. If it were completely obvious, you think she'd have mentioned something, If anything Catelyn knew there would be a price and neglected to tell Robb.

No but the settlements closest to MC is WH and that's still 200 miles that need to be covered by riders. I already acknowledged a messenger could well have been sent to the Twins, but it wouldn't really give him much headway, just a few days.

I didn't say he didn't make mistakes. I said he made the most expeditious decision given the information and 

I was just chiming in saying Robb took the best option available. Frankly your suggestions are worse or do nothing to advance his cause.

I had completely forgotten about coming back in ASOS. I was focused on AGoT.

Not one bit, but there's a fair sight between telling people a month ahead of time that you're bringing an army south to getting the news when they come out of the Neck. Armies have to muster their men. Given a few more days warning, Tywin could have marched his army more quickly up the KR and blocked Robb's army from passing at all.

Agreed, at least the appearance of diplomacy is important.

No but the Neck is where they spent weeks mustering and marching through. 

I don't know why you think 100 miles is relevant. Certainly no one in the story thought there was wood nearby, and Robb had outriders scouting under Theon and BF. They were looking for fords for a reason. If Robb says there is no timber available to create barges / rafts, then I am going to believe he's done his homework. And, once again, even if they have the timber, they do not have the time as Tywin is marching up the river. Catelyn even warns Robb about Walder telling Tywin about his presence:

“Unless Lord Frey tells him,” Catelyn said sharply. “Theon, when you return to my uncle, tell him he is to place his best bowmen around the Twins, day and night, with orders to bring down any raven they see leaving the battlements. I want no birds bringing word of my son’s movements to Lord Tywin.”

You'd think she have brought that up earlier, but 'tis not my book.

Mace might have had to cut the wood down and drag it many miles. That we do not know. Here is what we do now:

  • Tywin is the richest man in the kingdoms
  • Mace is the second richest man in the kingdom
  • Mace has 3x as many men as Robb
  • Mace is building these barges between stony sept and Tumbler Falls, both of which are towns that are going to have craftsmen and available labor (pressed most likely) that Robb will not have access to along the kingsroad
  • There's a forest called Threepenny Wood in the vicinity of Stoney Sept

You can say I have zero knowledge, but more men and more gold make just about every task easier, especially one that requires lots of manual labor.

I've been reading this argument for a while.

In the end, we gotta admit that Robb was a poor strategist, a poor logistics person(or whatever you call that), a proud and stubborn fool. But we most all agree he was one of the best Tactical commanders Westeros has seen. Give Robb 2 more years of warfare experience, and he probs would become the next Alexander the Great.

Robb being naive and young caused his downfall. 

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1 hour ago, The Young Maester said:

I've been reading this argument for a while.

In the end, we gotta admit that Robb was a poor strategist, a poor logistics person(or whatever you call that), a proud and stubborn fool. But we most all agree he was one of the best Tactical commanders Westeros has seen. Give Robb 2 more years of warfare experience, and he probs would become the next Alexander the Great.

Robb being naive and young caused his downfall. 

Poor long term strategist? Maybe

But his performance up to and interacting with the Freys is fine. He loses at most a day and gains 4K soldiers. He really only loses a few hours with the negotiations if i read the passage right. If Frey betrays his motives to Tywin, his army is trapped between the Twins and the KR or harried all the way up to the Neck (and his Bannermen get pissed off). He has a lot more to lose by communicating with Walder than he does to gain. I even forgot that BF was shooting down ravens from the Twins before Robb arrived. Wonder what was in their messages. Prolly not much if we never heard of their contents.

His blunders come later in the books. BM did a solid job of listing those. As to logistics, well we see pretty much everyone BUT Tywin fail hard there (Stannis, Renly, Robb, even Jaime at RR).

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9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Harrenhal what? What does this reply even mean?

Harrenhal is far more stronger than Twins, and the largest castle in the known world it still becomes a ruin, same thing could happen to the twins, if the Others comes.

 

 

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You made the original claim, not me. You claimed "most of his actions are actually advised by the lords and blackfish."

But notably Robb is advised to 

  • let Greatjon lead the attack on Tywin
  • to join Renly, Stannis, have peace, he rejected the majority of his lords suggestions at Riverrun
  • to attack Harrenhal
  • to send anyone but Theon to the Iron Islands
  • to spare Rickard Karstark

Robb frequently rejects advice. 

being advice by enemy doesn't mean they're the best potion, 

let Greatjon lead the attack on Tywin - Greatjon plan is reckless, and his plan is taking Tywin unaware which roose bolton tries and failed, If Robb did this, he'll lose the entire war in his first battle.

To join Renly, Stannis, have peace, he rejected the majority of his lords suggestions at Riverrun - Robb did not consider Renly Robert's heir, Stannis is not yet crowned, Northmen are honorable unlike the Riverlords if they support Renly, Stannis got a better claim yet he's still not crowning himself, they also think Joffrey is the real heir, but Robb is also clearly out for revenge against him for executing Ned, and it's only advice of one riverlord, what the majority of them agrees is declaring for Robb. 

To attack Harrenhal - how? Tywin probably got more men, besieging army with larger number than you will fail miserably.

to send anyone but Theon to the Iron Islands - of this I agree, but he also consider Theon like a family, he didn't think he'll betray him.

to spare Rickard Karstark - I agree with this as well, but Rickard did a crime, he also disrespected robb in front of the lords, he'll look weak if he did nothing, and we all know of Stark's precious honor.


 

 

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Logistics is one of Tywin's strengths, I don't expect Robb to be anywhere near, but in the opening months of the war he was clueless about them. Expecting things to just work out is a problem in war. 

Tywin started the war and more likely takes his time to prepare, he's also the richest lords in the kingdom so his resources are plenty, He also got plenty of time in his invasion, Carrying large number of weapons is already expected of him, Robb likely did the same.

 

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tywin, in the Riverlands, was able to equip 300 mountain clan soldiers

I'm pretty sure Robb can also equip them, and besides, Tywin is extremely rich, he can produce/buy large amount of weapons, carrying wood to make a fleet of barges is harder, it takes up too much time, needed men and labour, and it will extremely slow down his army.

 

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

And? 

It failed miserably, If Robb marched the kingsroad to meet Tywin, he'll get destroyed in the green fork, you can't take Tywin unaware.

splitting his army in the twins gives Robb more advantage than taking the kingsroad, I'll list it if you want.


 

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Well then he is also going to have to make sacrifices. His lack of options at the Twins was down to his own game plan, not anybody else. 

His options in the twins are limited, Carrying wood from the Neck before you reach the Twins is ridiculous to be honest, Crossing the them is clearly the better option.

 

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Robb had options, he opted to be silent and not gather any information, not alert the Freys that he needed access. He had options. 


Robb gathers information, he knew the Lannister got a larger 2nd Army coming, he knew Jaime defeated the Riverlords in golden tooth, he can't sit around the moat cailin for long, his food supply is small and the Lannister might fully control the Riverlands by the time he started to move which will give him limited time to maneuver his army, the other option have more flaws.

 

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, he's not. His father was arrested and he wanted him released, him marching South had zero to do with protecting the Riverlands. 

 


Tywin invading RIverlands is actually one of his reason, freeing Ned is primary, defeating Lannisters is defending riverlands, Riverlords also crowned him king so they clearly think of him as a protector.

 

 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No one made demands from Robb. 

so is marrying the daughter of the owner of the bridge before you crossing them is not a demand?.  what will call it then?
 

 

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:
"Did you kill them?"
"Would I tell you if I did?" The man spat. "Likely it were wolves' work, or maybe lions, what's the difference? The wife and I found them dead. The way we see it, the place is ours now."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'd stay well clear of that kingsroad, if I were you," the man went on. "It's worse than bad, I hear. Wolves and lions both, and bands of broken men preying on anyone they can catch."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Child," said the singer, "put up that sword, and we'll take you to a safe place and get some food in that belly. There are wolves in these parts, and lions, and worse things. No place for a little girl to be wandering alone."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If there were wolves hereabouts, we'd know it," groused Lem. "Or lions. These are our woods."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A man laughed bitterly. "The lions killed Ser Wilbert a year ago. His sons are all off with the Young Wolf, getting fat in the west. You think they give a damn for the likes of us? It was the Mad Huntsman caught these wolves."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lem glowered. "Your lion friends ride into some village, take all the food and every coin they find, and call it foraging. The wolves as well, so why not us? No one robbed you, dog. You just been good and foraged."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brienne felt obligated to pass along that warning to the farmer and his wife. The man nodded as she told him, but when she was done he spat again and said, "Dogs and wolves and lions, may the Others take them all. These outlaws won't dare come too near to Maidenpool. Not so long as Lord Tarly has the rule there."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 He sent men off to Riverrun to fight but never went himself. Lions sacked his town, then wolves, then sellswords, and his lordship just sat safe behind his walls.

Robb doesn't have the full control of Riverlands and they are at war to enfore the King's justice and peace.

Soldiers tend to be brutal even in their own country or land of their allies, this also happens in middle ages.

 

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

At Moat Cailin he could have sent half his army ahead while the others took their time

Actually no, Robb said their provisions are getting low, and Lannisters already defeated Riverlords.  




 

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You mean Cat did. Credit should be given to who its due.

Cat is Robb's Envoy, Cat can be given credit but Robb is the one who have to agree, so it's still a great diplomatic action in Robb's part.

 

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sorry. I'm not sure your meaning here.

Sorry, he is responsible for defending the north, but he did not assemble a large northern army just to sit in the moat cailin and wait for Tywin to attack him there, Tywin is too smart for that.

 

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22 hours ago, Blue Falcon said:

If I remember they were just sent away. If I recall wasn't Olyvar present at the following siege of Riverrun? I have some vague memory of Jaime spotting him in the Frey camp.

"Being away" was the vague excuse Cat got when she inquired about Perwyn, Alesander and Olyvar. Perwyn is later at Riverun siege.  It is possible that they were sent away, but then no one could could later vouch for them not being part of the wedding. That is why I said they would need to be in the dungeons.

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5 minutes ago, Chris Mormont said:

"Being away" was the vague excuse Cat got when she inquired about Perwyn, Alesander and Olyvar. Perwyn is later at Riverun siege.  It is possible that they were sent away, but then no one could could later vouch for them not being part of the wedding. That is why I said they would need to be in the dungeons.

Thanks for the correction on Perwyn.

But being sent away can mean lots of things. For example if each of them are sent away with six men-at-arms and these men-at-arms are told by Lord Frey that their "companions" are not to return to the Twins until a set date, then I can totally see them being away without being in the dungeons.

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13 minutes ago, Blue Falcon said:

But being sent away can mean lots of things. For example if each of them are sent away with six men-at-arms and these men-at-arms are told by Lord Frey that their "companions" are not to return to the Twins until a set date, then I can totally see them being away without being in the dungeons.

That is true, but I was looking at it from the eyes of the Northmen.  If they are in the dungeons when the survivors are brought there, then they would vouch that Perwyn and company were not part of the betrayal.  If they were just not present at the wedding, then from the North's perspective, they would be just as guilty

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