Could Jacaerys and Sara Snow have planted a dragon seed up north?

[Frey family reunion]

Unfortunately Fire & Blood debunked one of my favorite theories.  Namely that Queen Alysanne’s lengthy stay up North, separate from her husband, would have allowed her to have conceived and given birth to a bastard child, left in the care of the Mountain clans.  Who’s descendant perhaps was Arya Flint who then married into House Stark, and the grandmother of Eddard and his siblings.  If Rhaegar was Jon’s father, a recessive dragon riding bloodline on his mother’s side, might be necessary for Jon to be a dragon rider.  It also fits my favored theory of Jon’s parentage, which would also give him a recessive dragon blood on both his mother’s side and father’s side.  

But alas,  According to F&B, Alysanne was only separate from her husband for about 6 months, which put a kibosh on her conceiving and giving birth to a secret bastard while she was up North.  Plus, there isn’t a whif of any affair she could have had prior to her journey up North.

But when one door closes, another opens.

I think there may be a way that a Targaryen bloodline could have been introduced through House Stark, from another “Targaryen”’s journey up north (although technically a Velaryon, or perhaps a Strong).

 We learn that Jacaerys Velaryon, the first born son of Queen Rhaenyra, rode his dragon, Vermax up to Winterfell to gain an alliance with Cregan Stark to gain their support in the Dance of Dragons.

As a result of this, the Pact of Ice and Fire was formed, where Jacaerys promised to marry his first born daughter to Cregan Stark’s son, Rickon.   Which when you think of it, is a pretty significant occurence.  After all, Jacaerys was the first born son of Queen Rhaenyra and assuming that Queen Rhaenyra wins of the Dance of Dragons, Jacaerys is then in line to the Iron Throne.  So a marriage pact with Jacaerys first born daughter is pretty significant, especially with the Targaryen’s practice of marrying siblings together when possible.  Also Cregan’s military support is probably the least significant alliance for the Targaryens because of the North’s remoteness from the action in the South.  This is compounded due to the fact that Cregan cannot march until the North has adequately prepared for the upcoming winter.

The Fool, Mushroom, provides an additional story concerning Jacaerys trip up North.  According to Mushroom, Jacaerys becomes smitten with Cregan’s bastard half-sister Sara Snow and claims her maidenhead.  In Mushroom’s tale Jacaerys marries Sara Snow in front of a heart tree in Winterfell.  The author of F&B discounts the marriage out of hand, but doesn’t completely discount the possibility of a “dalliance” between the two.  (Then interestingly enough, the tale then proceeds to discount another one of Mushroom’s tales, that Vermax left a clutch of dragon eggs in Winterfell).

We also learn that Cregan Stark’s first wife was a Norrey girl, Arra Norrey, who was a childhood friend of his.  

Now, taking all of this info together, let me paint a possibility left unsaid in the F&B book.  

If Cregan Stark had a bastard half-sister, and a female childhood friend who was a Norrey, there seems to be a decent possibility that there might be a friendship between Sara Snow and Arra Norrey.  

Now if Jacaerys did take this girl’s maidenhead, it’s also possible that he got her pregnant, aka he left a Dragon seed up North.

 This might explain why Cregan had so much leverage to form the Pact of Ice and Fire.  Jacaerys did not make amends by marrying Sara Snow, he made amends by agreeing to marry his first born daughter to Cregan Stark.  In other words, Cregan had Jacaerys over a barrel.

Now if Sara Snow was pregnant with Jacaerys’ child (in a way a dragon egg was left in Winterfell), and Sara Snow and her half brother Lord Cregan have a close relationship with the Norreys, Cregan’s in-laws, then it seems fairly reasonable that the Cregan could arrange a marriage of Sara Snow with a Norrey, where her child would be raised as a Norrey, amongst the mountain clan.  And it just so happens that the Norreys live in a region that has a particular fondness for Queen Alysanne, even naming the Queens Crown tower in her honor.  So perhaps if Sara was carrying a child (the great great great grandchild) of Alysanne, the Norreys might be the perfect place for the child to be raised.

Then a couple of generations later, we have Arya Flint, perhaps a descendant of Sara “Snow” Norrey and Jacaerys Velaryon, who marries back into House Stark

[Lord Varys]

If Sara Snow existed, and if she and Jace had an affair that led to a child, then there is a chance that we will learn that in FaB II. Cregan and Alysanne and their children are likely going to feature there in some fashion, and if Aegon III had some bastard nephew or niece by Jace we should learn that. But since Gyldayn makes this Sara Snow woman appear as very obscure chances are pretty good that she did never give birth to a child by Jacaerys Velaryon.

I see no reason why we should assume such a child should end up with the clansmen, nor any reason such a royal bastard would have to be hidden. The Starks usually do not hide their bastards, and there is little reason to assume that a bastard should have to hide her bastard child.

[The Wondering Wolf]

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If Sara Snow existed, and if she and Jace had an affair that led to a child, then there is a chance that we will learn that in FaB II. Cregan and Alysanne and their children are likely going to feature there in some fashion, and if Aegon III had some bastard nephew or niece by Jace we should learn that. But since Gyldayn makes this Sara Snow woman appear as very obscure chances are pretty good that she did never give birth to a child by Jacaerys Velaryon.

I see no reason why we should assume such a child should end up with the clansmen, nor any reason such a royal bastard would have to be hidden. The Starks usually do not hide their bastards, and there is little reason to assume that a bastard should have to hide her bastard child.

As you say, Gyldayn is not even sure that Sara actually existed, so I do not think there will be more about her in the second part.

[Frey family reunion]

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If Sara Snow existed, and if she and Jace had an affair that led to a child, then there is a chance that we will learn that in FaB II. Cregan and Alysanne and their children are likely going to feature there in some fashion, and if Aegon III had some bastard nephew or niece by Jace we should learn that. But since Gyldayn makes this Sara Snow woman appear as very obscure chances are pretty good that she did never give birth to a child by Jacaerys Velaryon.

I see no reason why we should assume such a child should end up with the clansmen, nor any reason such a royal bastard would have to be hidden. The Starks usually do not hide their bastards, and there is little reason to assume that a bastard should have to hide her bastard child.

I think if they did have a child, it might be revealed in the D&E She-wolves tale, assuming that ever comes to fruition.  My guess is Dunk may run into a descendant of Sara Snow, who might tell the tale.

The reason I focus on the mountain clan aspect of the tale, is the tidbit, we learn about Bran's great grandmother, who was a Flint.  Who we learn about around the time of their visit to the Queen's Crown tower, where we learn the tale of Queen Alysanne and her trip up North.  This is the first Stark ancestor we learn about past Rickard Stark, other than the King who Knelt.  So my guess is there may be a hidden importance behind her, and the fact that she is mentioned around the time we learn of Targaryen trips up north, makes me think that if George is wanting to introduce a Targaryen bloodline in House Stark, he's probably doing it through this Flint ancestor.

So when we learn that Creghan had a wife and a childhood friend who is a Norrey, my interest was piqued.  Presumably Arra Norrey may have grown up in Winterfell and could have possibly also been friends with Creghan's bastard sister.

So, if Sara did have a dragonrider's child, this wold be a way that the child could have ended up in the mountain clans and could have had a descendant born in the adjacent Flint clan.

I don't know if the child would have to be hidden or not.  Perhaps Sara feeling the taint of bastardy might not want her child growing up with the same taint.  In which case, perhaps a brother of Arra Norrey might agree to marry her and raise the child as his own.

The other aspect of the Mountain Clans that intrigue me is the fact that Val and her sister Dalla may very well have come from one of the Mountain clans.  Mance allegedly meets up with them on his journey from Winterfell back to Beyond the Wall.  And there does seem to be at least a tease of Val having a Valyrian bloodline:

Quote

The light of the half-moon turned Val's honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow.

A good bit of speculation to be sure on my part.  But it's some of these seemingly throw away bits in F&B that make me the most curious.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

As you say, Gyldayn is not even sure that Sara actually existed, so I do not think there will be more about her in the second part.

Even if she did exist - a good reason why there is no further mentioning of her or any children she may have had could be due to the Winter Fever. It could have claimed both her and any child she may have had - if she had a child.

I've also to say that Jacaerys would really have to a moron if he fell for a bastard girl when he had a betrothed as strong, courageous, and sassy as Baela Targaryen. Even if the Sara woman was more like Arya than like Sansa, Baela would have still been the better girl. In my opinion, at least.

[Frey family reunion]

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Even if she did exist - a good reason why there is no further mentioning of her or any children she may have had could be due to the Winter Fever. It could have claimed both her and any child she may have had - if she had a child.

 

I think the most probable reason there is no further mention of her, is that the whole affair was probably hushed up by the Starks, so it only exists as salacious rumor, passed along by Mushroom.

40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I've also to say that Jacaerys would really have to a moron if he fell for a bastard girl when he had a betrothed as strong, courageous, and sassy as Baela Targaryen. Even if the Sara woman was more like Arya than like Sansa, Baela would have still been the better girl. In my opinion, at least.

To quote Stephen Stills, "love the one you're with".

[AlaskanSandman]

9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Unfortunately Fire & Blood debunked one of my favorite theories.  Namely that Queen Alysanne’s lengthy stay up North, separate from her husband, would have allowed her to have conceived and given birth to a bastard child, left in the care of the Mountain clans.  Who’s descendant perhaps was Arya Flint who then married into House Stark, and the grandmother of Eddard and his siblings.  If Rhaegar was Jon’s father, a recessive dragon riding bloodline on his mother’s side, might be necessary for Jon to be a dragon rider.  It also fits my favored theory of Jon’s parentage, which would also give him a recessive dragon blood on both his mother’s side and father’s side.  

But alas,  According to F&B, Alysanne was only separate from her husband for about 6 months, which put a kibosh on her conceiving and giving birth to a secret bastard while she was up North.  Plus, there isn’t a whif of any affair she could have had prior to her journey up North.

But when one door closes, another opens.

Hahaha i know how you feel. I was suspecting Alysanne of something similar but to do with the Starks, dating back to older unions such as Bael and the Stark maid. There was a repetition it seemed in the bride stealing. Plus Grrm had laid other clues back as far as Rogue Prince about Jaehaerys fighting at the Wall with dragons. Would've like to hear that story haha but oh well's. Nice to see some one else was seeing something similar, even if different in who did the deed. 

Not quite to the Dance yet in the books so ill have to get back with you on your new theory  

[The Bard of Banefort]

I tend to assume that whenever GRRM mentions something that involves the North, the Starks, and dragons--especially if the maesters immediately dismiss it--then it's all but certainly true, and functions as foreshadowing. So with that in mind, I'm guessing that there is a clutch of dragon eggs somewhere in Winterfell, and that Jace really did fall in love with one of the Starks. How that comes into play further down the line, however, is something I'm unsure of. 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 12/1/2018 at 9:05 AM, Frey family reunion said:

Unfortunately Fire & Blood debunked one of my favorite theories.  Namely that Queen Alysanne’s lengthy stay up North, separate from her husband, would have allowed her to have conceived and given birth to a bastard child, left in the care of the Mountain clans.  Who’s descendant perhaps was Arya Flint who then married into House Stark, and the grandmother of Eddard and his siblings.  If Rhaegar was Jon’s father, a recessive dragon riding bloodline on his mother’s side, might be necessary for Jon to be a dragon rider.  It also fits my favored theory of Jon’s parentage, which would also give him a recessive dragon blood on both his mother’s side and father’s side.  

But alas,  According to F&B, Alysanne was only separate from her husband for about 6 months, which put a kibosh on her conceiving and giving birth to a secret bastard while she was up North.  Plus, there isn’t a whif of any affair she could have had prior to her journey up North.

But when one door closes, another opens.

I think there may be a way that a Targaryen bloodline could have been introduced through House Stark, from another “Targaryen”’s journey up north (although technically a Velaryon, or perhaps a Strong).

 We learn that Jacaerys Velaryon, the first born son of Queen Rhaenyra, rode his dragon, Vermax up to Winterfell to gain an alliance with Cregan Stark to gain their support in the Dance of Dragons.

As a result of this, the Pact of Ice and Fire was formed, where Jacaerys promised to marry his first born daughter to Cregan Stark’s son, Rickon.   Which when you think of it, is a pretty significant occurence.  After all, Jacaerys was the first born son of Queen Rhaenyra and assuming that Queen Rhaenyra wins of the Dance of Dragons, Jacaerys is then in line to the Iron Throne.  So a marriage pact with Jacaerys first born daughter is pretty significant, especially with the Targaryen’s practice of marrying siblings together when possible.  Also Cregan’s military support is probably the least significant alliance for the Targaryens because of the North’s remoteness from the action in the South.  This is compounded due to the fact that Cregan cannot march until the North has adequately prepared for the upcoming winter.

The Fool, Mushroom, provides an additional story concerning Jacaerys trip up North.  According to Mushroom, Jacaerys becomes smitten with Cregan’s bastard half-sister Sara Snow and claims her maidenhead.  In Mushroom’s tale Jacaerys marries Sara Snow in front of a heart tree in Winterfell.  The author of F&B discounts the marriage out of hand, but doesn’t completely discount the possibility of a “dalliance” between the two.  (Then interestingly enough, the tale then proceeds to discount another one of Mushroom’s tales, that Vermax left a clutch of dragon eggs in Winterfell).

We also learn that Cregan Stark’s first wife was a Norrey girl, Arra Norrey, who was a childhood friend of his.  

Now, taking all of this info together, let me paint a possibility left unsaid in the F&B book.  

If Cregan Stark had a bastard half-sister, and a female childhood friend who was a Norrey, there seems to be a decent possibility that there might be a friendship between Sara Snow and Arra Norrey.  

Now if Jacaerys did take this girl’s maidenhead, it’s also possible that he got her pregnant, aka he left a Dragon seed up North.

 This might explain why Cregan had so much leverage to form the Pact of Ice and Fire.  Jacaerys did not make amends by marrying Sara Snow, he made amends by agreeing to marry his first born daughter to Cregan Stark.  In other words, Cregan had Jacaerys over a barrel.

Now if Sara Snow was pregnant with Jacaerys’ child (in a way a dragon egg was left in Winterfell), and Sara Snow and her half brother Lord Cregan have a close relationship with the Norreys, Cregan’s in-laws, then it seems fairly reasonable that the Cregan could arrange a marriage of Sara Snow with a Norrey, where her child would be raised as a Norrey, amongst the mountain clan.  And it just so happens that the Norreys live in a region that has a particular fondness for Queen Alysanne, even naming the Queens Crown tower in her honor.  So perhaps if Sara was carrying a child (the great great great grandchild) of Alysanne, the Norreys might be the perfect place for the child to be raised.

Then a couple of generations later, we have Arya Flint, perhaps a descendant of Sara “Snow” Norrey and Jacaerys Velaryon, who marries back into House Stark

You changed this up so ill have to reread again haha but im curious your thoughts on how maybe House Mormont picked up a Valyrian name like Maege? Martin has suggested Ae means a Valyrian in the family tree, though Elio is possibly countering this (though not giving much info on how or why he is countering what Martin has said in interview). 

   My theory was Alysanne. So im curious with your ideas of Jacaerys if you see how the Mormonts may fit in. Or if they are part of some other picture.

[The Bard of Banefort]

The interesting thing is, we know that Jace didn't have the traditional Targ look, so if he did have a child, their descendant really could be anyone. Hell, maybe said descendant ended up riding a unicorn on Skagos, and we'll learn more about them when Davos comes on shore in TWOW. Who knows? 

[Frey family reunion]

On 12/2/2018 at 6:34 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

You changed this up so ill have to reread again haha but im curious your thoughts on how maybe House Mormont picked up a Valyrian name like Maege? Martin has suggested Ae means a Valyrian in the family tree, though Elio is possibly countering this (though not giving much info on how or why he is countering what Martin has said in interview). 

   My theory was Alysanne. So im curious with your ideas of Jacaerys if you see how the Mormonts may fit in. Or if they are part of some other picture.

Yes, I think the most probable explanation behind some of the Targaryen inspired names up North lies with Alysanne.  It could just mean that Alysanne was such a big influence up North that children started getting these names in honor of her.  The most obvious example perhaps being Alysane Mormont.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Describing Sara as a "half-washed wildling bastard" also harkens back to TWOIAF, when the maester said close to the same thing about Lyanna and how she could never compare to Elia's "delicate beauty." To me, this basically all but confirms that there was a romance between the two of them. GRRM might as well have just inserted a giant winking emoji. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

If Jacaerys did in fact marry Sara (likely, since he rebuffed Bella), then their daughter would be half Northern and half Targaryen, and raised at Winterfell. I can see a gender-flipped Jon. Then she would have married her cousin, the trueborn Stark, a gender-flipped Sansa. So I'd say a Jon/Sansa marriage fulfills the pact. There are more details that link Jon and Sansa to this. Jacaerys was almost named Joffrey. Jacaerys is called "Jace," and there is a Jace in the Night’s Watch. He trains 3-against-1 with Jon, just like Garlan Tyrell did in his training, that Sansa notices. 

[Lucia Targaryen]

I'm skeptical of the whole story. Mushroom was not in Winterfell at the time but on Dragonstone. Sure Jacaerys could have come back and told this mother but that would have caused a huge rift amongst the blacks and no on mentions it. In fact it was Jacaerys who reconciled Corlys and Rhaenyra, something that I don't think would happen if Jace had married a bastard rather than the Sea Snake's undisputed granddaughter. Some have compared this story to Robb and Jeyne but it's stated that Jace and Sara married before sleeping together so the honor excuse wouldn't work.

And then there's the eggs. If Jace knew that 5 eggs were in the crypts, why would he leave them there? We saw how worried Jaehaerys was about the three eggs taken by Elissa ending up in the wrong hands. Why wouldn't Jace have taken them with him? And what about the people in Winterfell? Did Sara and/or Cregan know that there were dragon eggs in the crypts? If so, why leave them down there? If they didn't hatch, why not keep them as heirlooms or sell them?

To me there are just too many holes in Mushroom's tale of what happened in Winterfell. 

[Alyssa of House Arryn]

Gyldayn doubts Sara even existed. If she and a potential bastard played any further role in the politics of the South, you'd think that would do enough to reaolve any doubts of Gyldayn. Obviously, if Sara existed and married Jace (which, btw, I believe), Cregan Stark would rather not fight another bloody war to put his sister's bastard onbthe throne. Sara and a son or a daughter probably spent their whole lives in Winterfell, far north, away from King's Landing.

 

P.S: What a mad lad, that Jace Velaryon. Forsake a very serious betrothal to a Targ princess to marry a bastard? Had he survived and taken the throne, what would he have said? "Sorry, Baela darling, you're cute and all but Sara here is mah true luv. Yeah I know she's just some dead lord's bastard and you a trueborn princess that's descended from, like, Baelon and Aemon and Daemon Targaryen - and Corlys Velaryon too - but Sara would prolly make a better queen. Idk".