What if Denys Arryn survives?

[Lion of the West]

8 minutes ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

Her general insanity if he sees it up close could be a good reason

It could work but there are also lords who could see that madness as a possibility, as Aerys' lickspittles did, or like the suitors who seeks Lysa's hand will likely oversee the madness in favor fo the potential power they can get.

Just like I can see many follow Denys against Lysa, I can also see many opposing him.

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

41 minutes ago, Blue Falcon said:

It could work but there are also lords who could see that madness as a possibility, as Aerys' lickspittles did, or like the suitors who seeks Lysa's hand will likely oversee the madness in favor fo the potential power they can get.

Just like I can see many follow Denys against Lysa, I can also see many opposing him.

Agreed with you there

[Ser Dips A lot]

12 hours ago, Blue Falcon said:

Personally I'll just throw in that we know to little about Denys Arryn's personality and standing within the Vale to know how he would react to something. I can see Lysa holding on to power, there being a civil war within the Vale or Denys sweeping her aside. Much of it based on what role Denys would have within the Vale after Jon Arryn married Lysa.

But I think that @Bernie Mac raise a very strong reason in that formally Lysa would be the regent of her own son. So Denys would need to come up with some scheming to unseat or marginalize her. And probably a more advanced scheme than just appealing to general misogyny among the Vale nobility.

Say Denys is appointed as Steward of the Vale(Nestor Royce’s position) by Jon Arryn following the rebellion. With around 15 years or so under his belt as the functioning ruler of the Vale, I think he’d have no issues unseating Lysa at the time of Jon’s death. I think he could exploit her as the unstable, unreliable, and unworthy mother and regent that she is. I think he would deem her as Lysa Tully and tell her her place is now at Riverrun. This might take some legal maneuvering, however, and may require some sort of Lords Declarent type course of action. He would certainly need some big time lords to support him. Being that this is the Vale and not any other of the seven kingdoms, I think it’s unique in the sense that there is more importance stressed on making things legal so to speak. They have a “rules are rules” sort of attitude and Denys would have to incorporate a legal declaration with some notable Lords’ signatures, I believe, in order to justify the Vale and guardianship of Robin as his. 

[Lion of the West]

3 hours ago, Ser Dips A lot said:

Say Denys is appointed as Steward of the Vale(Nestor Royce’s position) by Jon Arryn following the rebellion. With around 15 years or so under his belt as the functioning ruler of the Vale, I think he’d have no issues unseating Lysa at the time of Jon’s death. I think he could exploit her as the unstable, unreliable, and unworthy mother and regent that she is. I think he would deem her as Lysa Tully and tell her her place is now at Riverrun. This might take some legal maneuvering, however, and may require some sort of Lords Declarent type course of action. He would certainly need some big time lords to support him. Being that this is the Vale and not any other of the seven kingdoms, I think it’s unique in the sense that there is more importance stressed on making things legal so to speak. They have a “rules are rules” sort of attitude and Denys would have to incorporate a legal declaration with some notable Lords’ signatures, I believe, in order to justify the Vale and guardianship of Robin as his. 

Well, if Denys is the one tow hold power in the Vale for a decade and a half then he will naturally have been able to build a position for himself to challenge Lysa. So in that scenario I suppose that he would be able to sweep Lysa aside and keep his power. And then go on to support Robb against the Baratheon kings.

[HexMachina]

12 minutes ago, Blue Falcon said:

Well, if Denys is the one tow hold power in the Vale for a decade and a half then he will naturally have been able to build a position for himself to challenge Lysa. So in that scenario I suppose that he would be able to sweep Lysa aside and keep his power. And then go on to support Robb against the Baratheon kings.

In this particular hypothetical though does Denys give a flying fig about Robb’s war? He did just tell Robb’s maternal aunt to bugger off and get stuffed. This would likely Also I impact the BF’s position too. Not the best opening relations with the Tully’s/stark alliance

[Lion of the West]

32 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

In this particular hypothetical though does Denys give a flying fig about Robb’s war? He did just tell Robb’s maternal aunt to bugger off and get stuffed. This would likely Also I impact the BF’s position too. Not the best opening relations with the Tully’s/stark alliance

I suppose it would depend on Denys' morale fiber and honour. If he has a good morale compass and a sense of honour he will support Robb and he, the Blackfish and Robb will patch up whatever rifts there might have been from throwing out the traitor Lysa and they will join forces for honour and juistice against the Lannisters and Baratheons. If Denys would lack honour and morality then I suppose he would either support Lysa in her position as regent or do as Lysa did and essentially fortify himself in the Vale.

[Ser Dips A lot]

5 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

In this particular hypothetical though does Denys give a flying fig about Robb’s war? He did just tell Robb’s maternal aunt to bugger off and get stuffed. This would likely Also I impact the BF’s position too. Not the best opening relations with the Tully’s/stark alliance

I don’t think he would have any real motivation to join the Starks. It’s said the Yohn Royce urged Lysa to join up with Robb, but with this hypothetical situation...I see Denys declaring for Stannis. Maybe the Vale would be the third party that arranges an alliance between Robb and Stannis. Or perhaps declaring independence in his own right, much like Robb, but that’s an extreme.

[Ser Dips A lot]

4 hours ago, Blue Falcon said:

I suppose it would depend on Denys' morale fiber and honour. If he has a good morale compass and a sense of honour he will support Robb and he, the Blackfish and Robb will patch up whatever rifts there might have been from throwing out the traitor Lysa and they will join forces for honour and juistice against the Lannisters and Baratheons. If Denys would lack honour and morality then I suppose he would either support Lysa in her position as regent or do as Lysa did and essentially fortify himself in the Vale.

Wouldn’t you think having honor and a good morale compass would lead you to declare for the true King, the king who, by all laws of Westeros, inherits the Iron Throne? Ned said Stannis is the heir and risked his life for it,  and Ned is arguably the most honorable and morally good man in the series. Robb is indeed fighting a just cause but Stannis is fighting for the same thing as the undoubtedly rightful king.

[Lion of the West]

19 minutes ago, Ser Dips A lot said:

Wouldn’t you think having honor and a good morale compass would lead you to declare for the true King, the king who, by all laws of Westeros, inherits the Iron Throne? Ned said Stannis is the heir and risked his life for it,  and Ned is arguably the most honorable and morally good man in the series. Robb is indeed fighting a just cause but Stannis is fighting for the same thing as the undoubtedly rightful king.

First, Eddard is s certified idiot who don't understand how succession to the Iron Throne goes. The king announces the heir, nothing else is of relevance. Stannis has a claim and while older material has not been updated, the fact is that line of descent does not decide who is the rightful heir.

Not really in seeing Stannis as the king. The by all laws rightful king is Joffrey Baratheon. He's been paraded around for over ten years as the heir and Robert's son and bears the Baratheon name. That Eddard tries a coup, and makes a public admission of guilt after it, would not make me less likely to think that I've been duped for over a decade.

And there are alot of unfortunate coincidences as well surrounding Eddard and Stannis. for the first part, Eddard has publically admitted his guilt. And now his son is waging war to severe the realm for the same reason that Tywin invaded the Riverlands; slighted honour. Thus I personally see nothing noble at all about egomanical dreams of grandeur.

Stannis, well he has a case just as bad as Robb has. The whole incest thing does only show up after Eddard's coup at the capital has been defeated and Eddard has admitted his guilt in trying to put Stannis on the throne, and as a coincidence that makes Stannis the heir. What a coincidence! What are the odds I never heard as much as a rumour about the incest if that's really true and has been going on for over ten years, right beneath the king's nose and Stannis has noted it?

To me it would look very clear that Stannis, and Renly, are nothing but power hungry uncles trying to steal the throne from their young nephew and that Robb is essentially an immature brat who is tearing the realm apart by throwing a tantrum because people were mean to his daddy, who has himself admitted to be a traitor who went to  conspire against the young king before the body of the last king, Eddard's supposedly best friend, has grown cold.

 

[Ser Dips A lot]

24 minutes ago, Blue Falcon said:

First, Eddard is s certified idiot who don't understand how succession to the Iron Throne goes. The king announces the heir, nothing else is of relevance. Stannis has a claim and while older material has not been updated, the fact is that line of descent does not decide who is the rightful heir.

Not really in seeing Stannis as the king. The by all laws rightful king is Joffrey Baratheon. He's been paraded around for over ten years as the heir and Robert's son and bears the Baratheon name. That Eddard tries a coup, and makes a public admission of guilt after it, would not make me less likely to think that I've been duped for over a decade.

And there are alot of unfortunate coincidences as well surrounding Eddard and Stannis. for the first part, Eddard has publically admitted his guilt. And now his son is waging war to severe the realm for the same reason that Tywin invaded the Riverlands; slighted honour. Thus I personally see nothing noble at all about egomanical dreams of grandeur.

Stannis, well he has a case just as bad as Robb has. The whole incest thing does only show up after Eddard's coup at the capital has been defeated and Eddard has admitted his guilt in trying to put Stannis on the throne, and as a coincidence that makes Stannis the heir. What a coincidence! What are the odds I never heard as much as a rumour about the incest if that's really true and has been going on for over ten years, right beneath the king's nose and Stannis has noted it?

To me it would look very clear that Stannis, and Renly, are nothing but power hungry uncles trying to steal the throne from their young nephew and that Robb is essentially an immature brat who is tearing the realm apart by throwing a tantrum because people were mean to his daddy, who has himself admitted to be a traitor who went to  conspire against the young king before the body of the last king, Eddard's supposedly best friend, has grown cold.

 

Alright the “line of descent does not decide who is the rightful heir part” had me thrown off for a second but I think I understand what you’re trying to say. Dying Robert did not know that his son was in fact Jaime’s basterd, so Ned wrote “rightful heir” instead. I’m trying to look at this from a Denys’ perspective and not my own, having read the series and knowing the truth of the matter behind Jaime and Cersei’s incest, I understand that it may look like a convenient coincidence for Stannis to some. But with that said, Denys had fought with Ned and Stannis, and would had known them both for a long time at this point. Surely he would know Ned, albeit a certified political idiot as you said, is honorable and loyal to Robert beyond question. That loyalty led him to choose the “rightful heir” to succeed Robert. That “rightful heir” happened to fit the “power hungry uncle” persona quite well and I understand your point there. But the truth of the matter is, Joffrey is a basterd and Ned had absolute certainty in that. Lacking certain tangible evidence and political support, his case for Stannis as heir led to his so called treason and death.

If I’m Denys, I don’t think I’d so easily forget that Ned, deemed traitor or not, is a Stark, not a Lannister. Starks don’t sack King’s Landing and order the rape and murder of innocent women and children. Lannisters do. And surely Denys would know that Joffrey at this point, basterd or not, is a puppet of the Lannisters. Ned was Robert’s friend. Denys would know that. Ned Stark doesn’t have any ulterior motives or benefits in crowing Stannis, Denys would see that. It was the honorable course of action, knowing what he knew, and it’s a pity no one else did. Unless Denys is a complete idiot, he should believe Stannis’ letter. What he decides to do with that knowledge is another story indeed. I think he’d fight for Jon Arryn’s political ally, the one true king, Stannis.

[Lion of the West]

15 hours ago, Ser Dips A lot said:

Alright the “line of descent does not decide who is the rightful heir part” had me thrown off for a second but I think I understand what you’re trying to say. Dying Robert did not know that his son was in fact Jaime’s basterd, so Ned wrote “rightful heir” instead. I’m trying to look at this from a Denys’ perspective and not my own, having read the series and knowing the truth of the matter behind Jaime and Cersei’s incest, I understand that it may look like a convenient coincidence for Stannis to some. But with that said, Denys had fought with Ned and Stannis, and would had known them both for a long time at this point. Surely he would know Ned, albeit a certified political idiot as you said, is honorable and loyal to Robert beyond question. That loyalty led him to choose the “rightful heir” to succeed Robert. That “rightful heir” happened to fit the “power hungry uncle” persona quite well and I understand your point there. But the truth of the matter is, Joffrey is a basterd and Ned had absolute certainty in that. Lacking certain tangible evidence and political support, his case for Stannis as heir led to his so called treason and death.

If I’m Denys, I don’t think I’d so easily forget that Ned, deemed traitor or not, is a Stark, not a Lannister. Starks don’t sack King’s Landing and order the rape and murder of innocent women and children. Lannisters do. And surely Denys would know that Joffrey at this point, basterd or not, is a puppet of the Lannisters. Ned was Robert’s friend. Denys would know that. Ned Stark doesn’t have any ulterior motives or benefits in crowing Stannis, Denys would see that. It was the honorable course of action, knowing what he knew, and it’s a pity no one else did. Unless Denys is a complete idiot, he should believe Stannis’ letter. What he decides to do with that knowledge is another story indeed. I think he’d fight for Jon Arryn’s political ally, the one true king, Stannis.

In my opinion you make some serious jumps here with regards to the characters and try to angle Denys as a man of honor when we know to little about him.

For the first part, Denys wouldn't have known Stannis or fought beside him if Denys was the steward of the Vale. Stannis spent most of the Rebellion in Storm's End and only came to the capital for a stint as Master of Laws at which point Denys would have been back in the Vale. Hence I see no reason to think that Stannis and Denys have any particular close relation.

Furthermore if Eddard has no definitive evidence that Joffrey is a bastard and that he has himself admitted guilt then it leaves me wondering why Denys would be so fast to conclude that Eddard and Stannis are right, rather than they are trying to unseat Robert's son? It should reasonably have been known to Denys that both Eddard and Stannis despise the Lannisters, unless Jon Arryn for some reason decided to keep Denys in the dark about affairs at court, and that Joffrey is very close to the Lannisters which kind of gives us a prime motivation for why Eddard and Stannis would conspire to unseat Joffrey and place Stannis on the throne.

I don't think that Denys, away in the Vale, would have known what Eddard was thinking or not. Its naturally entirely possible that he would side with Robb or Stannis, although he would probably be uncertain who to support after Robb drives a wedge between himself and Stannis after accepting to be the separatist king in the North. But if Denys would side with either Robb or Stannis it would not be for honour or for seating the rightful king on the throne. It would be to helping out his buddy Eddard, or Eddard's son, or because he dislikes the Lannisters if he declares for Stannis.

[Ser Dips A lot]

12 hours ago, Blue Falcon said:

In my opinion you make some serious jumps here with regards to the characters and try to angle Denys as a man of honor when we know to little about him.

For the first part, Denys wouldn't have known Stannis or fought beside him if Denys was the steward of the Vale. Stannis spent most of the Rebellion in Storm's End and only came to the capital for a stint as Master of Laws at which point Denys would have been back in the Vale. Hence I see no reason to think that Stannis and Denys have any particular close relation.

Furthermore if Eddard has no definitive evidence that Joffrey is a bastard and that he has himself admitted guilt then it leaves me wondering why Denys would be so fast to conclude that Eddard and Stannis are right, rather than they are trying to unseat Robert's son? It should reasonably have been known to Denys that both Eddard and Stannis despise the Lannisters, unless Jon Arryn for some reason decided to keep Denys in the dark about affairs at court, and that Joffrey is very close to the Lannisters which kind of gives us a prime motivation for why Eddard and Stannis would conspire to unseat Joffrey and place Stannis on the throne.

I don't think that Denys, away in the Vale, would have known what Eddard was thinking or not. Its naturally entirely possible that he would side with Robb or Stannis, although he would probably be uncertain who to support after Robb drives a wedge between himself and Stannis after accepting to be the separatist king in the North. But if Denys would side with either Robb or Stannis it would not be for honour or for seating the rightful king on the throne. It would be to helping out his buddy Eddard, or Eddard's son, or because he dislikes the Lannisters if he declares for Stannis.

I believe Stannis was Master of Ships, if that’s what you meant. Not Law. But anyways,  I know I did make some assumptions here, as it is all hypothetical. But your point is made and I agree that unless having been informed on the affairs at court by Jon Arryn, Denys would have very little reason to support Stannis. And you’re right, Robb did drive a wedge between him and Stannis by crowning himself. A foolish move indeed if you ask me. From a tactical standpoint, Robb should have declared for Stannis and formed an alliance there, no doubt. But after hearing your take on this, it is very logical to say that the Vale may still have remainded neutral, even with Denys calling the shots. Would’ve been cool though to see Tywin’s face when he hears about The Knights of the Vale entering the War, fighting for Robb or Stannis.

[Lion of the West]

On 12/7/2018 at 10:56 PM, Ser Dips A lot said:

I believe Stannis was Master of Ships, if that’s what you meant. Not Law. But anyways,  I know I did make some assumptions here, as it is all hypothetical. But your point is made and I agree that unless having been informed on the affairs at court by Jon Arryn, Denys would have very little reason to support Stannis. And you’re right, Robb did drive a wedge between him and Stannis by crowning himself. A foolish move indeed if you ask me. From a tactical standpoint, Robb should have declared for Stannis and formed an alliance there, no doubt. But after hearing your take on this, it is very logical to say that the Vale may still have remainded neutral, even with Denys calling the shots. Would’ve been cool though to see Tywin’s face when he hears about The Knights of the Vale entering the War, fighting for Robb or Stannis.

I was totally sure that he was Master of Law when we wanted to outlaw prostitution and punish Slynt, but from a quick look at the wiki it seems that I was wrong.

As for Tywin's face I think we would be underwhelmed. I think that Tywin took Arryn participation into account and so wouldn't be entirely suprised. I actually think he was more surprised that Frey joined against him than he would be to see the Knights of the Vale take the field against him.