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What if Denys Arryn survives?

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Ser Denys Arryn, known as the Darling of the Vale, was a knight of House Arryn. A distant cousin to the ruling line, he married Lord Jon Arryn’s niece. Denys was a "renowned jouster, handsome and gallant and brimming with courtesy". He was slain at the Battle of the Bells by Lord Jon Connington. At the time, Denys was heir to the Vale.

In a hypothetical situation where Ser Denys Arryn manages to slay Jon Connington and survive the remainder of Robert’s Rebellion, how would the events of (and leading up to) asoiaf transpired differently?

Ofcourse this is all hypothetical and highly subjective, but I am curious as to what other people would have to say on the matter. I, for one, would imagine that Lord Jon Arryn would still be Hand of the King, and I think he would instruct Denys to rule the Vale in his absence, as Keeper of the Gates of the Moon. Denys would remain heir of the Vale until Robin Arryn is born and act as lord paramount, until Sweet Robin would come of age. In theory. Then there is Lysa and Littlefinger. I see another potential assassination by LF and Lysa, but how would this all play out? Surely the Vale lords would be onto them if both Jon and Denys are mysteriously found dead. We don’t know much about Denys, so there is a lot of margin for speculation on this. And yes, Jon Con is dead so the storyline with fAegon and the Golden Company would obviously change some, but I’m trying to keep this discussion confined to The Vale and Westeros during the WotFK.

If Denys managed to survive long enough into the series, I would expect to see different events unfold pertaining to The War of the Five King’s; Denys would urge the Vale lords into joining the war, fighting for Stannis most likely.!Lysa would remain neutral, and their contrasting intentions would cause dissension amongst the Vale Lords, perhaps leading to a civil war within The Vale. How do you guys see this going down?

Again this is all hypothetical and I just want positive feedback so please keep that in mind.

 

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If Denys survives, and if his wife and children survive, then they are the heirs to the Vale whilst Lysa is without issue. Once Jon Arryn dies, I can see Denys becoming regent, with Lysa being sidelined. If Denys is regent, I assume then that the Vale either remains neutral or joins the Riverlands and the North against the Lannisters, assuming things go as they did in canon. 

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23 minutes ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

If Denys survives, and if his wife and children survive, then they are the heirs to the Vale whilst Lysa is without issue. Once Jon Arryn dies, I can see Denys becoming regent, with Lysa being sidelined. If Denys is regent, I assume then that the Vale either remains neutral or joins the Riverlands and the North against the Lannisters, assuming things go as they did in canon. 

Once Robin is born Lysa, as his guardian, is in charge of the Vale. 

Jason Lannister dies in the Dance and it is Johanna and her Westerling father who take control, Forrest Frey dies and his Vypren wife and her brothers who are leading the Freys and despite there being other Arryn's around it is the Corbrays who act as regents during the regency of Jeyne Arryn. 

The mother will have control, in some cases they will be happy with their in-laws doing it for them but Lysa is clearly not of that ilk, she would be calling the shots, not Denys

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3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Once Robin is born Lysa, as his guardian, is in charge of the Vale. 

Jason Lannister dies in the Dance and it is Johanna and her Westerling father who take control, Forrest Frey dies and his Vypren wife and her brothers who are leading the Freys and despite there being other Arryn's around it is the Corbrays who act as regents during the regency of Jeyne Arryn. 

The mother will have control, in some cases they will be happy with their in-laws doing it for them but Lysa is clearly not of that ilk, she would be calling the shots, not Denys

Lysa is also one of the most unstable figures in Westeros. Denys if he's of a mine could point to that and take control.

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16 minutes ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

Lysa is also one of the most unstable figures in Westeros. Denys if he's of a mine could point to that and take control.

We get to see that from Sansa's POV, Westeros or the Lords of the Vale don't, they simply think of her as a grieving widow.  She was able to keep her authority in the Vale even when her most powerful Lord wanted war, a distant cousin of her son's (for that is what Denys is) is unlikely to change that. 

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20 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

We get to see that from Sansa's POV, Westeros or the Lords of the Vale don't, they simply think of her as a grieving widow.  She was able to keep her authority in the Vale even when her most powerful Lord wanted war, a distant cousin of her son's (for that is what Denys is) is unlikely to change that. 

She kept power largely due to plot reasoning in my view. And because it suited the narrative. Denys as an adult Arryn, and the closest kin Robert has in the Vale, might well be able to shape things toward a perspective more favourable to him.

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3 minutes ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

She kept power largely due to plot reasoning in my view.

She kept power because she was the mother of the new lord, his guardian. This is the norm in Westeros. 

3 minutes ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

 

And because it suited the narrative.

So there would be no change then. Denys, like both Lord Royces did and every other Lord of the Vale did, would just go along with her. 

What do you know of Deny's character that suggests he would not?

3 minutes ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

Denys as an adult Arryn, and the closest kin Robert has in the Vale, might well be able to shape things toward a perspective more favourable to him.

Based on what?

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8 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

She kept power because she was the mother of the new lord, his guardian. This is the norm in Westeros. 

So there would be no change then. Denys, like both Lord Royces did and every other Lord of the Vale did, would just go along with her. 

What do you know of Deny's character that suggests he would not?

Based on what?

Hardly based on the norm, Cregan Stark's mother did not serve as regent, his uncle did. 

 

We know nothing of his character, but I do know something of feudal politics

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8 minutes ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

Hardly based on the norm, Cregan Stark's mother did not serve as regent, his uncle did. 

 

Was she alive?

Was she against his uncle taking control?

Quote

We know nothing of his character, but I do know something of feudal politics

There are other Arryn's alive in the Vale, one of them between the death of Denny's and birth of Harry and Robin would have briefly been the heir, why did this unnamed Arryn not do what you are suggesting Denys would have done?

Edited by Bernie Mac

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5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

Was she alive?

Was she against his uncle taking control?

There are other Arryn's alive in the Vale, one of them between the death of Denny's and birth of Harry and Robin would have briefly been the heir, why did this unnamed Arryn not do what you are suggesting Denys would have done?

We do not know if she was alive/

 

And which Arryn? The only male Arryn alive before Sweetrobin was born was Jon Arryn

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1 minute ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

We do not know if she was alive/

So your point is meaningless unless you can point to a precedent of a mother not being the guardian of her own son after the father's death and other family members usurping her position. 

1 minute ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

 

And which Arryn? The only male Arryn alive before Sweetrobin was born was Jon Arryn

No, there are multiple branches still around, Denys comes from one such branch.

 There are several branches of House Arryn scattered across the Vale, all as proud as they are penurious, save for the Gulltown Arryns, who had the rare good sense to marry merchants. They're rich, but less than couth, so no one talks about them. Ser Denys hailed from one of the poor, proud branches . . .

 

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13 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

So your point is meaningless unless you can point to a precedent of a mother not being the guardian of her own son after the father's death and other family members usurping her position. 

No, there are multiple branches still around, Denys comes from one such branch.

 There are several branches of House Arryn scattered across the Vale, all as proud as they are penurious, save for the Gulltown Arryns, who had the rare good sense to marry merchants. They're rich, but less than couth, so no one talks about them. Ser Denys hailed from one of the poor, proud branches . . .

 

 

Perhaps so, though to assume that it is a natural state of affairs is not correct. Robb himself didn't have Catelyn as his regent when Ned was executed. 

 

Are there? The only branch known to exist in the books is the Gulltown Arryns

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Just now, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

 

Perhaps so, though to assume that it is a natural state of affairs is not correct. Robb himself didn't have Catelyn as his regent when Ned was executed. 

She, at one point, had the power to. 

"They are men, Robb, seasoned in battle. You were fighting with wooden swords less than a year past."
She saw anger in his eyes at that, but it was gone as quick as it came, and suddenly he was a boy again. "I know," he said, abashed. "Are you … are you sendingme back to Winterfell?"
Catelyn sighed. "I should. You ought never have left. Yet I dare not, not now. You have come too far. Someday these lords will look to you as their liege. If I pack you off now, like a child being sent to bed without his supper, they will remember, and laugh about it in their cups. 
 
But once he is crowned king he is in charge. 
 
Though I'm not sure your point? There is zero indication that a Denys like figure could have usurped control from either Cat or Robb. 
Just now, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

 

Are there? The only branch known to exist in the books is the Gulltown Arryns

Yes, there are I just supplied the quote, here it is again:

 

 There are several branches of House Arryn scattered across the Vale, all as proud as they are penurious, save for the Gulltown Arryns, who had the rare good sense to marry merchants. They're rich, but less than couth, so no one talks about them. Ser Denys hailed from one of the poor, proud branches . . .

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14 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

She, at one point, had the power to. 

"They are men, Robb, seasoned in battle. You were fighting with wooden swords less than a year past."
She saw anger in his eyes at that, but it was gone as quick as it came, and suddenly he was a boy again. "I know," he said, abashed. "Are you … are you sendingme back to Winterfell?"
Catelyn sighed. "I should. You ought never have left. Yet I dare not, not now. You have come too far. Someday these lords will look to you as their liege. If I pack you off now, like a child being sent to bed without his supper, they will remember, and laugh about it in their cups. 
 
But once he is crowned king he is in charge. 
 
Though I'm not sure your point? There is zero indication that a Denys like figure could have usurped control from either Cat or Robb. 

Yes, there are I just supplied the quote, here it is again:

 

 There are several branches of House Arryn scattered across the Vale, all as proud as they are penurious, save for the Gulltown Arryns, who had the rare good sense to marry merchants. They're rich, but less than couth, so no one talks about them. Ser Denys hailed from one of the poor, proud branches . . .

Benjen had he been at Winterfell, and not a sworn brother likely would've been expected to be either Robb's regent or his senior advisor, there is notihng stating that Ned left Cat as Robb's regent. Only that RObb acted in Ned's name.

 

And where is that quote from? One of the books, an SSM

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1 minute ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

Benjen had he been at Winterfell, and not a sworn brother likely would've been expected to be either Robb's regent or his senior advisor, there is notihng stating that Ned left Cat as Robb's regent. Only that RObb acted in Ned's name.

Cat was the ruler of the North while Ned was away

His words were like an icy draft through her heart. "No," she said, suddenly afraid. Was this to be her punishment? Never to see his face again, nor to feel his arms around her?
"Yes," Ned said, in words that would brook no argument. "You must govern the north in my stead, while I run Robert's errands.
 
---------------- A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II
 
 
1 minute ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

 

And where is that quote from? One of the books, an SSM

From the books, A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

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6 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Cat was the ruler of the North while Ned was away

His words were like an icy draft through her heart. "No," she said, suddenly afraid. Was this to be her punishment? Never to see his face again, nor to feel his arms around her?
"Yes," Ned said, in words that would brook no argument. "You must govern the north in my stead, while I run Robert's errands.
 
---------------- A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II
 
 

From the books, A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

Yet Robb was the one who did the ruling and none questionned him.

 

And fair enough.

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1 minute ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

Yet Robb was the one who did the ruling and none questionned him.

How does this back up your point of Denys taking control of the Vale?

Ned left Cat in charge when he left, Cat leaves Robb in charge when she leaves. When she returns she is once again in control

 "I know," he said, abashed. "Are you … are you sending me back to Winterfell?"
Catelyn sighed. "I should. You ought never have left. Yet I dare not, not now. You have come too far. Someday these lords will look to you as their liege. If I pack you off now, like a child being sent to bed without his supper, they will remember, and laugh about it in their cups. -----------------A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VIII
 
She then allows him to be in control. 
 
 

 

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Personally I'll just throw in that we know to little about Denys Arryn's personality and standing within the Vale to know how he would react to something. I can see Lysa holding on to power, there being a civil war within the Vale or Denys sweeping her aside. Much of it based on what role Denys would have within the Vale after Jon Arryn married Lysa.

But I think that @Bernie Mac raise a very strong reason in that formally Lysa would be the regent of her own son. So Denys would need to come up with some scheming to unseat or marginalize her. And probably a more advanced scheme than just appealing to general misogyny among the Vale nobility.

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2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

How does this back up your point of Denys taking control of the Vale?

Ned left Cat in charge when he left, Cat leaves Robb in charge when she leaves. When she returns she is once again in control

 "I know," he said, abashed. "Are you … are you sending me back to Winterfell?"
Catelyn sighed. "I should. You ought never have left. Yet I dare not, not now. You have come too far. Someday these lords will look to you as their liege. If I pack you off now, like a child being sent to bed without his supper, they will remember, and laugh about it in their cups. -----------------A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VIII
 
She then allows him to be in control. 
 
 

 

 

She knows that if she did that, his lords would never respect him, that she acknowledge that, suggests she knows that he's the one in command, not her.

 

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1 hour ago, Blue Falcon said:

Personally I'll just throw in that we know to little about Denys Arryn's personality and standing within the Vale to know how he would react to something. I can see Lysa holding on to power, there being a civil war within the Vale or Denys sweeping her aside. Much of it based on what role Denys would have within the Vale after Jon Arryn married Lysa.

But I think that @Bernie Mac raise a very strong reason in that formally Lysa would be the regent of her own son. So Denys would need to come up with some scheming to unseat or marginalize her. And probably a more advanced scheme than just appealing to general misogyny among the Vale nobility.

Her general insanity if he sees it up close could be a good reason

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