A Horse Named Stranger Posted December 27, 2018 Share Posted December 27, 2018 On 12/26/2018 at 1:58 PM, mormont said: If Pep doesn't win the league this year, that does not change why he is, without doubt, the most important and influential manager to emerge in the last decade. (Klopp may eventually have a rival claim, to be fair.) Klopp? I think he needs to win some more silverware to have a legit claim. But Klopp himself said a few months ago, that Guardiola is the best around. So I don't think he would make any such bold claims himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 8 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said: Klopp? I think he needs to win some more silverware to have a legit claim. I think Mormont is distinguishing between 'greatest' - which is definitely Pep atm even though you do have to take into account his vastly greater recources over Klopp- and most influential, for which Klopp definitely has a shout: Pep might have popularised the whole tiki-taka and high-press thing but Klopp's version contains more that has been adapted by more teams and coaches- heck, even Pep has started to lean that more counter-attacking way to an extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iskaral Pust Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 2 hours ago, polishgenius said: I think Mormont is distinguishing between 'greatest' - which is definitely Pep atm even though you do have to take into account his vastly greater recources over Klopp- and most influential, for which Klopp definitely has a shout: Pep might have popularised the whole tiki-taka and high-press thing but Klopp's version contains more that has been adapted by more teams and coaches- heck, even Pep has started to lean that more counter-attacking way to an extent. Neither Pep nor Klopp invented their style. Pep follows the total football of Rinus Michels by way of Johan Cruyff (and perhaps originally from the Hungarians of the 1950s), and Klopp follows the style of Arrigo Sacchi. I don’t think it’s fair to call either of them the greatest or most influential. It’s not Beatles versus Elvis. So the only question is who is doing it better, perhaps with a qualifier of resources available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 5 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said: Neither Pep nor Klopp invented their style. Pep follows the total football of Rinus Michels by way of Johan Cruyff (and perhaps originally from the Hungarians of the 1950s), and Klopp follows the style of Arrigo Sacchi. I don’t think it’s fair to call either of them the greatest or most influential. It’s not Beatles versus Elvis. So the only question is who is doing it better, perhaps with a qualifier of resources available. Well neither invented Pressing, but Klopp is synonymous with Gegenpressing which is an evolution of pressing. Where Pep at the time wanted to win the ball back because he wanted possession at all times, Klopp saw pressing as a form of attack and was less concerned with possession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 5 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said: I don’t think it’s fair to call either of them the greatest or most influential. The statement we're discussing was 'of this generation'. Obviously neither of them invented passing football but that kind of game was considerably less popular as a tactic when Pep took over Barca than it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 19 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said: Klopp? I think he needs to win some more silverware to have a legit claim. 'may eventually'. Although no, I don't think he necessarily needs to win more silverware. What he does have to do is continue to produce the goods. Finishing second in the league or CL matters more than winning a league cup or FA cup in that respect. 7 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said: Neither Pep nor Klopp invented their style. Pep follows the total football of Rinus Michels by way of Johan Cruyff (and perhaps originally from the Hungarians of the 1950s), and Klopp follows the style of Arrigo Sacchi. I don’t think it’s fair to call either of them the greatest or most influential. It’s not Beatles versus Elvis. So the only question is who is doing it better, perhaps with a qualifier of resources available. No. What both coaches are doing is developing (not inventing) their preferred style: and in so doing, developing the game. That matters more than winning a cup, and that's why Mourinho's place in football history will be to be mentioned in books about Guardiola and Klopp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted December 28, 2018 Author Share Posted December 28, 2018 If we're talking about influential then don't forget about Marcelo Bielsa. His trophy haul might be nothing to speak of but he has had a big influence on modern football. Guardiola considers him the be the best coach in the world and Bielsa's methods were one of the main influences in shaping Guardiola's own footballing philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 4 hours ago, mormont said: Although no, I don't think he necessarily needs to win more silverware. What he does have to do is continue to produce the goods. Finishing second in the league or CL matters more than winning a league cup or FA cup in that respect. At some point he still has to win the league against Guardiola. I agree, FA Cup or League Cup won't matter much in that respect. But I think actually winning the league or the CL at some point does. 12 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said: Pep follows the total football of Rinus Michels by way of Johan Cruyff Cruyff is undeniably Guardiola's hero (Guardiola himself said as much). Which is hardly surprising, since Cruyff was more or less responsible for setting up La Masia in its current form and he was also Guardiola's first headcoach/manager at a senior level at Barca in the early 90s. So of course Cruyff shaped Guardiola's approach to football. As for Michels, I thought it was really more the players around Cruyff who were in charge of the elftal, and who they wanted to play in the 1970s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iskaral Pust Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 5 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said: .As for Michels, I thought it was really more the players around Cruyff who were in charge of the elftal, and who they wanted to play in the 1970s. I don’t know for sure. Michels was the manager/coach of Ajax in that period and gets widely credited for total football. But Cruyff tends to get credit too as having been influential in adopting those tactics as the star player. It’s hard to work out who really deserves the lion’s share of the credit. But it’s beyond any question that Cruyff and total football were the foundational influence on Guardiola. Guardiola himself has mentioned rugby, chess and Bielsa (a devotee of Sacchi) among others as other influences, but those all came long after the Cruyff style and patterns were embedded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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