Jump to content

How should Robb have gotten his sisters back?


Angel Eyes

Recommended Posts

5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

And Cat points out that he does not

 "I'm told your son crossed the Neck with twenty thousand swords at his back," Renly went on. "Now that the lords of the Trident are with him, perhaps he commands forty thousand."
 No, she thought, not near so many, we have lost men in battle, and others to the harvest.

Again, read the post

"Robb has at very least 27k,  at the start of the ACoK 10k under Roose, 11k  under Edmure and his own 6k, and this is after he "grew weak by the day" so he should have 30k or more at the end of AGoT. Kevan expected him to outnumber the Lannister army and this is not counting Roose's army."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

start reading the topic again :) 

  • There are no mercenary armies available to hire in Westeros
  • There is no indication that Robb has the funds to hire an army, Jaime's ransom is hardly going to be enough
  • Robb has no Navy, how exactly does he transport this army

 

Cat can also try and bluff that Robb has five Dragons, such a bluff is going to be transparent. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

There are no mercenary armies available to hire in Westeros

But there are in Essos and they are willing to come fight in Westeros like Vargo and the Tyrosh Tywin hired...

 

32 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:
  •  There is no indication that Robb has the funds to hire an army, Jaime's ransom is hardly going to be enough

Read the topic...again... Talking about money from Jaime's ransom.

32 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:
  •  Robb has no Navy, how exactly does he transport this army

Stannis does not either, he lost his fleet at blackwater but he still went after them anyway, and Robb at the very least has the Manderly fleet.

34 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Cat can also try and bluff that Robb has five Dragons, such a bluff is going to be transparent. 

Yep this is called overplaying your hand, and it usually causes you to go broke...

Renly is the one calling Robb's army 40k, with mercenaries hired is easier to present it as a bigger. Is Renly that assumed wrong, Cat would only play along and tell about reinforcements from sellswords. Is it that hard to understand it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

But there are in Essos and they are willing to come fight in Westeros like Vargo and the Tyrosh Tywin hired...

Vargo had a couple of hundred men, they are insignificant in the war. It's also not clear where they were at the outbreak of war, but if the Lannister riches could only get that many then it does not bode well for Robb. 

The Tyroshi was one guy. Robb was able to take Jaime's sellswords (to add to his own sellswords) but the Tyroshi was seemingly one guy rather than a company.

 

2 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Read the topic...again... Talking about money from Jaime's ransom.

Dude, no need to be condescending because flaws in your argument have been spotted. 

  • How much does a sellsword army cost? 
  • How much would Jaime ransom for?
  • How is this money transported to Essos?
  • How long does it take to travel to Essos, locate an army, hire them and get back?
  • How are they going to transport said army? 
  • Robb controls no ports in the Crownlands, do they land in the North? 
  • If doing this is so easy why are Tywin and Renly not doing it? 
2 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Stannis does not either, he lost his fleet at blackwater but he still went after them anyway,

Stannis is literally sending Massey on the heels of the Braavos banker, transportation to Essos is not an issue and the money in Essos. 

More importantly Stannis does not seem to care about time. He wants either himself or Shireen on the throne.

2 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

and Robb at the very least has the Manderly fleet.

The fleet that did not exist at that time? 

Robb didn't even know about the fleet, it was commissioned by Rodrick.

2 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Yep this is called overplaying your hand, and it usually causes you to go broke...

Yup, pretending you have an extra 20k soldiers is much the same.

2 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Renly is the one calling Robb's army 40k,

No, he's calling it 40k before their battles, like with Stannis' 5k he is happy to over estimate their numbers in the knowledge that they can't compete with him. 

2 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

with mercenaries hired is easier to present it as a bigger.

What mercenaries? 

Robb is desperate for more men, if hiring a mercenary army was so easy it would have been attempted by Robb or Tywin. Time & transportation is clearly an issue for the both of them even before funds come into it. 

Renly is not going to fall for this because there are too many holes in the plan. This happens all too frequently in the fandom, people get so invested in theories that they refuse to see why it makes little sense.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

How much would Jaime ransom for?

Again if you read the topic you would know that I don't know it either...I'm not being condescending here, I'm asking it for a while now.

"Just to not start another topic

How much coin do you think Robb could get from Jaime's Ramson and how much sellswords can he hire with this money?"

Now, you tell me how much do you think he is worth and how much would tywin be willing to pay?

19 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:
  • How much does a sellsword army cost? 

Don't know either, read the topic... I re-started this topic with this question...

"Just to not start another topic

How much coin do you think Robb could get from Jaime's Ramson and how much sellswords can he hire with this money?"

19 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:
  • How is this money transported to Essos?

It won't. You'll pay them in westeros, or they will take the gold and let you hands empty. 

 

19 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:
  •  How long does it take to travel to Essos, locate an army, hire them and get back?

Probably months, this is why I said Robb took too much time idle in Riverrun after AGoT.

19 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:
  •  Robb controls no ports in the Crownlands, do they land in the North? 

or in the city of Maidenpool.

 

19 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:
  •  If doing this is so easy why are Tywin and Renly not doing it? 

Renly has the biggest army ever assembled in Westeros history and Tywin is hiring sellswords, there are at least 2 companys with him.

Lindsay lohan in this topic also pointed that Tywin does not think high of sellswords... again read the topic... I'm really not trying to be a smart ass here.

"Tywin looked down on the way the Free Cities used gold and sellswords (even as he bought the discount Brave Companions).  "When your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire."  Later, when Tyrion was with JonCon on the river, he thinks about how Ilyrio relies too much on his economic influence in war planning: "Might be the cheesemonger has misjudged the situation. You can buy a man with gold, but only blood and steel will keep him true.""

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

The Tyroshi was one guy. Robb was able to take Jaime's sellswords (to add to his own sellswords) but the Tyroshi was seemingly one guy rather than a company.

Can you show me a quote or the reason why you belive that is only one guy? the wiki says it was a company of freeriders.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Can you show me a quote or the reason why you belive that is only one guy? the wiki says it was a company of freeriders.

The wiki is not always right

Second; what did Robb do with the Tyroshi sellsword who dipped his banners at Riverrun?

I don't know what Robb did with him... but =I= forgot all about him, I blush to admit.

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Tooth_and_the_Tyroshi

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The wiki is not always right

Second; what did Robb do with the Tyroshi sellsword who dipped his banners at Riverrun?

I don't know what Robb did with him... but =I= forgot all about him, I blush to admit.

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Tooth_and_the_Tyroshi

 

still seems to be a company...

from your own link:

Second; what did Robb do with the Tyroshi sellsword who dipped his banners at Riverrun?

I don't know what Robb did with him... but =I= forgot all about him, I blush to admit.

Now that you've reminded me... I imagine he kept most of them with him when he went west. Having just marched through the westerlands when they were on the other side, they would have had a certain value.

I also would expect that he suffered some desertions... these men were not bound to him by oath or ancient loyalty, and there was plenty of plunder to be had...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

No I pointed a very huge and unreasonable number to show that Jaime has a limit in his valuable, and that Robb cannot ask for something that Tywin wouldn't pay for.

To be fair I don't even know how much would Jaime be worthed, that's why I asked you how much you think he could get out of it.

 

Robb has at very least 27k,  at the start of the ACoK 10k under Roose, 11k  under Edmure and his own 6k, and this is after he "grew weak by the day" so he should have 30k or more at the end of AGoT. Kevan expected him to outnumber the Lannister army and this is not counting Roose's army.

Ser Kevan frowned over the map, forehead creasing. “Robb Stark will have Edmure Tully and the lords of the Trident with him now. Their combined power may exceed our own. And with Roose Bolton behind us. . . Tywin, if we remain here, I fear we might be caught between three armies.”

Renly thinks that Robb has 40k, With a extra 20k he can present a higher force to him. Catelyn if she is ever send to him could play a stronger hand.

Stannis got 20k mercenaries(at minimun) after the deal with the Iron bank, we don't know how much he got to borrow, but Jaime Ramsom would be a fortune, after all in the words of Lefford:

“Then we must ransom Ser Jaime, whatever it costs,” Lord Lefford said.

Sorry, but this whole plan as absurd. Robb doesn't need a bigger army to cut a deal with Renly; the deal was all set and done, but Renly got killed.

You say Robb frittered his time away at Riverrun, so instead he should have sold Jaime for some gold and a few hostages, which would have taken time, then sent to Essos for sellswords (20,000 sellswords from what you now say is a few hundred gold for Jaime), which would have taken more time, all to cut a deal with Renly that his mother was able to conclude with no army whatsoever, just a handful of riders.

Leo Lefford is an idiot, by the way. Post the rest of your quote and you'll see why:

Quote

"Then we must ransom Ser Jaime, whatever it costs," Lord Lefford said. 

Tyrion rolled his eyes. "If the Starks feel the need for gold, they can melt down Jaime's armor."

 . . .moments later . . .

Lord Tywin Lannister rose to his feet. "They have my son," he said once more, in a voice that cut through the babble like a sword through suet. "Leave me. All of you."

Leo later drowns in the Battle of the Fords trying to cross the river in full armor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

still seems to be a company...

 

No, it does not. There is no mention of it being a company like the Brave Companions. The Tyrosi was one man who was given the command of the freeriders and sellswords in Jaime's army. Most armies in the series have a selection of similar troops

 This host her son had assembled was not a standing army such as the Free Cities were accustomed to maintain, nor a force of guardsmen paid in coin. Most of them were smallfolk: crofters, fieldhands, fishermen, sheepherders, the sons of innkeeps and traders and tanners, leavened with a smattering of sellswords and freeriders hungry for plunder. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

You say Robb frittered his time away at Riverrun, so instead he should have sold Jaime for some gold and a few hostages, which would have taken time, then sent to Essos for sellswords (20,000 sellswords from what you now say is a few hundred gold for Jaime), which would have taken more time, all to cut a deal with Renly that his mother was able to conclude with no army whatsoever, just a handful of riders.

The deal with Renly was not set, we don't even know how Robb would react when the terms were presented since Renly died earlier.

Renly only promised what Robb already had, he refused to march on Kings Landing and  he let Tywin and Robb kill each other, he was not a ally, and was not behaving as one, he tried to show Cat a threat before letting her go.

Trading Jaime is only worth depending on how much swords Robb can get from him. This is the reason why I asked you how much Jaime's ramson would be able to buy. If Robb can get something like 10k or 20k than I do think is a good trade for him, is pretty much the support of the Vale that he was asking for, if Jaime is only worth something like 300 mercenaries it would be a awful trade.

This is why I wanted you to put a price on him, but you made this following argument:

"Think of it the way Dany does with her dragons: there are only three in the known world, so a good trade for one of them would be a third of all the ships in the known world. There is only one Jaime Lannister."

not sure if you were implying that Jaime is worth 3 dragons, but he even you were shocked when the amount was 6 million in gold...Jaime does have a measurable value, the only question is, how much he is worth. If you presented a small number I would be forced to agree with you and not make the trade.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

The deal with Renly was not set, we don't even know how Robb would react when the terms were presented since Renly died earlier.

And yet he sent his mother to treat with Renly with no army at her back, no threat of a massive influx of sellswords on the horizon -- just a proposal that they unite against their common enemy. And it worked.

Quote

Renly only promised what Robb already had, he refused to march on Kings Landing and  he let Tywin and Robb kill each other, he was not a ally, and was not behaving as one, he tried to show Cat a threat before letting her go.

So Robb already had Renly's allegiance and his army? I think not. Renly did not refuse to march on King's Landing, he just needed to take care of Stannis first. After that, his plan was depose the current Lannister king, cut his head off to bring Robb his justice, and then march north to eliminate Tywin. Of course he showed Cat the extent of his power. How else to forge this pact on his terms? Robb is the one who needs an alliance here, not Renly.

Quote

Trading Jaime is only worth depending on how much swords Robb can get from him. This is the reason why I asked you how much Jaime's ramson would be able to buy. If Robb can get something like 10k or 20k than I do think is a good trade for him, is pretty much the support of the Vale that he was asking for, if Jaime is only worth something like 300 mercenaries it would be a awful trade.

Wrong. You have a very limited view of the possibilities here. Jaime's value could bring an early and victorious end to the war or could be the key to Robb returning north with his head still on his shoulders and his lands and titles intact. As we discussed, there is no way Jaime can be exchanged for the amount of gold needed to by 10-20k sellswords, and this would be a foolish bargain for Robb because those swords can suddenly wind up in Tywin's camp as easily as the Mummers and the Tyroshi wound up in Robb's.

Robb has plenty of gold to buy sellswords, but Tywin has only one Jaime. His value is far greater than either gold or swords, and his value increases every day as the war plays out, regardless of whether Robb or Tywin is winning or losing.

Quote

This is why I wanted you to put a price on him, but you made this following argument:

"Think of it the way Dany does with her dragons: there are only three in the known world, so a good trade for one of them would be a third of all the ships in the known world. There is only one Jaime Lannister."

not sure if you were implying that Jaime is worth 3 dragons, but he even you were shocked when the amount was 6 million in gold...Jaime does have a measurable value, the only question is, how much he is worth. If you presented a small number I would be forced to agree with you and not make the trade.

Again, you seem to measure value only in terms of gold and swords, which is missing the point entirely. Jaime's true value is strategic. As long as they hold Jaime, they have leverage over what Tywin does in the field and what Cersei does in King's Landing -- far more leverage than they have over Robb by holding Sansa. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...