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Ser Dips A lot

Ranking the best warriors at the start of asoiaf

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A lot of love for Lyn Corbray, but not sure why.  His only victory of note was beating an already dying Prince Lewyn.  No votes for Darkstar (the most dangerous man in Dorne), maybe even better than Prince Oberyn.  And we just don't know about a guy like Ser Gascoyne.  He is Prince Trystane's shield for a reason.  Also, a shout out to Ser Mandon Moore, as Jaime called him the most dangerous of the KG.

1. Jaime Lannister

2. Sandor Clegange

3. Garlan Tyrell

4. Oberyn Martell

5. Gregor Clegane

6. Loras Tyrell

7. Victarian Greyjoy

8. Areo Hotah

9. Andrik The Unsmiling 

10. Georold Dayne/Mandon Moore/Balon Swann

 

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5 hours ago, nyser1 said:

Warriors 298 AC

 

1. Jamie Lannister

2. Garlan Tyrell

3. Gregor Clegane

4. Loras Tyrell

5. Greatjon Umber

6. Barristan Selmy

7.  Khal Drogo

8. Yohn Royce

9. Sandor Clegane

10. Lyn Corbray

Unfortunately, I’m just still not in agreement with the Loras Tyrell talk on this thread. I’d compromise enough to put him in the top 10 but come on...You’re gonna put The Hound at 9?? No way does he belong outside of the top 5. Swap him and Loras and I think that’s a solid ranking. No disrespect ofcourse, this is all our speculation so we can all agree to disagree more or less.

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I wouldn't rank Greatjon in top ten, until chest-beating is a requisite. He is fierce and loudmouth, allright, but not especialy good.

Loras Tyrell deserves the place.

Khal Drogo is a decent general, but we have never seen him defeat anybody important. 

Garlan Tyrell deserves top ten. Killed good warriors at Blackwater.

And... Syrio Forell? He isn't a knight or a warrior, only a swashbuckler. His fancy dance is useless against an armored foe, but he was the First Sword of Braavos.

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Why Gregor is in the top 5? There is no indication that the guy is skilled, only massive and tremendously strong, which makes for the ability he lacks.

Strong Belwas should be in the list too. He is very skilled and strong, however his fighting style is ill-suited to deal with with armored foes. Gregor would make short work of him.

Khal Drogo would certainly have been a excellent warrior but we never saw him fighting. Also the same issues with Belwas applies here.

 

 

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58 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Why Gregor is in the top 5? There is no indication that the guy is skilled, only massive and tremendously strong, which makes for the ability he lacks.

Strong Belwas should be in the list too. He is very skilled and strong, however his fighting style is ill-suited to deal with with armored foes. Gregor would make short work of him.

Khal Drogo would certainly have been a excellent warrior but we never saw him fighting. Also the same issues with Belwas applies here.

 

 

With 10-15% of the population of Westeros being from the North, I would expect at least 1 out of the top 10 to be  from the North, on average.

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9 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

With 10-15% of the population of Westeros being from the North, I would expect at least 1 out of the top 10 to be  from the North, on average.

Well, this is kind of weird because we haven't met anyone who is outstanding. In fact, the only two outstanding warriors north of the Neck are the Halfhand and Mance.

Notice, I don't consider the Great Jon outstanding because we haven't seen him fighting nor hearing people talking about his fighting prowess and even if he is, it may also be that his strength makes for the relatively lack of skill.

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Don't know about top 10 but Greatjon seems to be pretty fierce, capable and strong fighter, even  when he was dead drunk.

“You shall have one task and one task only, Merrett, but I believe you are well suited to it. I want you to see to it that Greatjon Umber is so bloody drunk that he can hardly stand, let alone fight.” And even that I failed at. He’d cozened the huge northman into drinking enough wine to kill any three normal men, yet after Roslin had been bedded the Greatjon still managed to snatch the sword of the first man to accost him and break his arm in the snatching. It had taken eight of them to get him into chains, and the effort had left two men wounded, one dead, and poor old Ser Leslyn Haigh short half a ear. When he couldn’t fight with his hands any longer, Umber had fought with his teeth

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29 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Well, this is kind of weird because we haven't met anyone who is outstanding. In fact, the only two outstanding warriors north of the Neck are the Halfhand and Mance.

Notice, I don't consider the Great Jon outstanding because we haven't seen him fighting nor hearing people talking about his fighting prowess and even if he is, it may also be that his strength makes for the relatively lack of skill.

Iron Emmet is also quite skilled. The fact that Jaime mentions the Greatjon in a list of "notable warriors who are famously strong" means that the Greatjon is a notable warrior. The Smalljon sounds like a chip off the old block. Rickard Karstark also seems to have been quite ferocious.

Edited by Ran

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

Iron Emmet is also quite skilled. The fact that Jaime mentions the Greatjon in a list of "notable warriors who are famously strong" means that the Greatjon is a notable warrior. The Smalljon sounds like a chip off the old block. Rickard Karstark also seems to have been quite ferocious.

It seems as if Jaime was listing warriors who could match or exceed him in strength only, not overall skill.  There is simply no evidence of the Greatjon's fighting skills.  We just no he is very big and very strong.

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6 minutes ago, Stallion That Mounts Texas said:

It seems as if Jaime was listing warriors who could match or exceed him in strength only, not overall skill.  There is simply no evidence of the Greatjon's fighting skills.  We just no he is very big and very strong.

Every other person he lists is a noted warrior.  Gerold Hightower, Arthur Dayne, the Cleganes, Strongboar, Robert. Why then do you suppose that when he names the Greatjon, he just randomly picked a non-famous warrior who is only known because he's strong? 

He's talking about people whom could conceivably be put forward as someone who can hang with him,  who also happen to be physically stronger. He doesn't list Barristan Selmy, he doesn't list Lyn Corbray or the Red Viper. At the same time, he doesn't list Hodor or whatever other strongman you might think of. 

This doesn't mean that the Greatjon is really as skilled as Jaime. But it does mean that he is a noted warrior.

Edited by Ran

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I'd add that Jaime wouldn't exactly have the reputation of the Greatjon if he was just some pretty strong guy. He lives at the end of the world and would have not exactly show up for the tourneys Jaime fought it. He may not have been at Harrenhal.

In that sense, it is significant that Jaime thinks of him, even more so since he actually saw him at the Whispering Wood. However, the man isn't exactly the youngest guy anymore. He has an adult son in the Smalljon, which should put the Greatjon's age at least in the thirties. But he could just as well be around forty. Not exactly the age your strength is already failing you, but not necessarily an age where you are at the peak of your abilities, either.

Still, the Greatjon must be famed for his strength and the way he showed off that strength. Else Jaime wouldn't even know of him.

One could, perhaps, assume that Rickard Karstark's dead sons and Daryn Hornwood were also not that bad. They were slain by Jaime, who is one of the greatest warriors of his age, so falling to him is not a disgrace. And they all succeeded in slowing him/keeping him away from Robb.

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@Ser Dips A lot

I like Oberyn's high place on the list. 

He had a gameplan, which he executed to perfection during his battle with Gregor. Rope-a-dope style, using the big man's size against him, the Viper danced. And he was able to out technique the most impressive physical specimen in the entire text, mano y mano. It was only through his own passion that he put himself in the position to die.

Clearly displaying a giant wave of rage during the battle (as seen by "you killed her!") Oberyn was still able to remain calm and execute a successful defence based strategy, utilising his opponents own size and lack of discipline against him. With the Mountain's physique and repute, I think the Viper's showing in the trial by combat is the most impressive display of fighting skill seen anywhere in the main series.

A near genius level intellect combined with a real nasty streak, as well as agility and acrobatic skill not seen by standard Westerosi, Martell managed to mortally wound an eight foot tall psycho, dodging the majority of the greatsword weilding brute's attacks while wearing light armour. We have Oberyn's mental and physical gifts to thank for this; his speed and reaction time are arguably just as otherworldly as Gregor's size and strength, while his mental preparation/training was able to overcome whatever power Gregor drew from his own insanity/combat prowess.

If we discount the hubris which lead to his death, and compare the Prince to real world martial artists, Oberyn has similarities to some of the greatest - the mental game of Jon Danaher, the explosiveness of Tyson, the accuracy of Spider Silva, the tenacity of Dan Gable, and an Ali like penchant for playing mind games.

While I'd rank Jaime higher, and potentially the Loras and the Hound, I reckon that, in a one on one situation, the Viper would have made short work of the rest of the "name" fighters in the country.

Technique wise, how would you rank Syrio and Jaquen?

Edited by Leo of House Cartel

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I don't see Randyl Tarly mentioned. You ask about the best warrior not the best duellust or tourney knight. It's not everything about the physical power or only aboyt skills or technique. Best warrior has a vision for the battle. Can lead men in battle. I'm for Randyl Tarly 

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at the start...

- Jaime is in his prime, he's number one... then Barristan/Cleganes/Oberyn/Loras/Garlan/Greatjon/Victarion in no particular order

ever, i'm a firm believer that modern elite fighters are better than generation's past so mount rushmore would be...

- Barristan (no one better with sword and the rest is in his cv, unreal feats of all sorts, sword/lance/stealth/knife, almost made to be the solid snake of martin's book)

- Prime Robert (feats in his twenties that put to shame 99% of people, genetics and a weapon that made him the guy with most potential to be a god of war before he gave up)

- Dayne (like Selmy no one better with sword, and with the best sword/skill combo)

- Jaime ( 1% below Dayne/Barristan in sword skill imo, prodigy)

Edited by Laughing Storm Reborn

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8 hours ago, Ran said:

Every other person he lists is a noted warrior.  Gerold Hightower, Arthur Dayne, the Cleganes, Strongboar, Robert. Why then do you suppose that when he names the Greatjon, he just randomly picked a non-famous warrior who is only known because he's strong? 

He's talking about people whom could conceivably be put forward as someone who can hang with him,  who also happen to be physically stronger. He doesn't list Barristan Selmy, he doesn't list Lyn Corbray or the Red Viper. At the same time, he doesn't list Hodor or whatever other strongman you might think of. 

This doesn't mean that the Greatjon is really as skilled as Jaime. But it does mean that he is a noted warrior.

IIRC, at the end his thoughts he says that being stronger than him is irrelevant.  With his skill and speed, he would best everyone that he mentioned.  Which leads me to believe he was focusing his statements on strength and stamina, not necessarily overall ability.  The only guy he basically yields to was Dayne.

 

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13 minutes ago, Stallion That Mounts Texas said:

IIRC, at the end his thoughts he says that being stronger than him is irrelevant.  With his skill and speed, he would best everyone that he mentioned.  Which leads me to believe he was focusing his statements on strength and stamina, not necessarily overall ability.  The only guy he basically yields to was Dayne.

His point is that however much these notable warriors were stronger than he was, he believes he was the better swordsman and could beat them. He's not making a list of random strongmen. Every one of those warriors are noteworthy fighters. 

I mean, really, just list each of them. Why would Greatjon be the exception?

Arthur Dayne - Famous warrior

Gerald Hightower - Famous warrior

Robert Baratheon - Famous warrior

Strongboar - Famous warrior

Gregor Clegane - Famous warrior

The Hound - Famous warrior

The Greatjon - Famous.... strongman?

Finally, remember the context of this whole passage -- he is in the middle of fighting Brienne, and he's not beating her. He's trying to imagine other men who could try him as Brienne is trying him, and trying to reassure himself that he'd be able to beat them. He's not listing random strong people. He's listing strong people who are known as dangerous fighters, or have some reputation as such.

Edited by Ran

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17 hours ago, Ser Dips A lot said:

Unfortunately, I’m just still not in agreement with the Loras Tyrell talk on this thread. I’d compromise enough to put him in the top 10 but come on...You’re gonna put The Hound at 9?? No way does he belong outside of the top 5. Swap him and Loras and I think that’s a solid ranking. No disrespect ofcourse, this is all our speculation so we can all agree to disagree more or less.

I can certainly understand your argument there. It is unfortunate that we do not see Loras in action more. We rely on what characters say & GRRM comments outside of the text.

 

Regarding the Greatjon, it is my opinion that was is collectively said about him is enough to put him in the top ten. That includes Jamie's comments.

 

Regarding Drogo: In a society where people follow the strongest warrior: he has never been defeated, we can deduce that he is still in his prime years, and he leads the largest khalassar. 

 

Regarding Selmy and Yohn: I took age into consideration. Barristan of Robert's Rebellion and the War of the Ninepenny Kings would be at the top...but the topic is for at the beginning of the series.

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16 hours ago, Ran said:

Iron Emmet is also quite skilled. The fact that Jaime mentions the Greatjon in a list of "notable warriors who are famously strong" means that the Greatjon is a notable warrior. The Smalljon sounds like a chip off the old block. Rickard Karstark also seems to have been quite ferocious.

It’s cool you mentioned Iron Emmett...he seems legit from what we heard. I mean what all do we even know about him? Other than beating Jon several times in sparring..seems weird to me that GRRM slipped in a character,“terrific” swordsman, that’s better than Jon I guess

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9 hours ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

at the start...

- Jaime is in his prime, he's number one... then Barristan/Cleganes/Oberyn/Loras/Garlan/Greatjon/Victarion in no particular order

ever, i'm a firm believer that modern elite fighters are better than generation's past so mount rushmore would be...

- Barristan (no one better with sword and the rest is in his cv, unreal feats of all sorts, sword/lance/stealth/knife, almost made to be the solid snake of martin's book)

- Prime Robert (feats in his twenties that put to shame 99% of people, genetics and a weapon that made him the guy with most potential to be a god of war before he gave up)

- Dayne (like Selmy no one better with sword, and with the best sword/skill combo)

- Jaime ( 1% below Dayne/Barristan in sword skill imo, prodigy)

I know GRRM has confessed that Dayne is the undisputed GOAT in Westeros, besting Selmy with Dawn but going 50/50 with him without it. So those two, are undoubtedly the best, what does GRRM actually say about Jaime?? Just “legendary” or something like that but what does that entail. I don’t dispute the fact that he is indeed #1 at the start of the series. I just wonder what the Kingslayer would do against other “legendary” fighters such as The Dragonknight, Daemon Blackfyre, etc.

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