Is Alyssa Farman or Alys Westhill Quaithe?

[Seaserpent]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

You can read more on my proposal on how Asshai came to be here: https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2017/11/03/the-spiders-origin-part-i/#Asshai

The rest of the essay deals with various skin conditions such as leukism (dominant white) and albinism and how George adapted and adopted these real world conditions in his world building, as well as characters in the story.

I don't see any reason to make Quaithe meddling in Dany's background story before Dany seding out riders from Vaes Tolorro. Quaithe did not contact or search out Dany before a Dothraki rider told people in Qarth his Khaleesi had hatched three dragons. If Quaithe had meddled with the Sealord who sheltered Dany, then you have to explain why Quaithe didn't contact Dany in aGot and helped her with instructions to hatch the dragons, nor why Quaithe didn't just use the glass cando to contact Dany from a distance, while Dany was in the red waste or in Vaes Tolorro. Now, I'm sure that you could invent all sorts of scenarios for Quaithe meddling before Dany gets eggs and for Quaithe not to meddle at all once Dany has the eggs, but I prefer scenarios that follow George's plot-weaving more: George tends to limit magical powers, and writes certain results as a chain of decisions and events caused by the free will of various characters acting in their own mundane self interest. F & B sheds more light on Braavosi interests (peace, stability and commerce) aside from the tactics they apply in the series (betting on 2 horses). Sealords and Braavos are established enough to surmise motivations both to buy and in the hypothetical scenario I described to gift/sell dragon eggs, without any need of Quaithe meddling in it. So, no, I don't think Quaithe used a glass candle to convince a sealord to gift three dragon eggs to Sir Darry for the Targ children. As a politician, he could have gotten the notion all by himself.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Quaithe wanted Dany to hatch the eggs. She did not appear as a mirage to Dany in all of aGot. Dany worked it out all by herself, through a chain of events and coincidences. Nor does Quaithe ever even attempt to acquire the dragons from Dany. All we can conclude, based on Quaithe's known behavior so far, is that once Quaithe learned of the existene of dragons, she wanted to see them with her own eyes and warning Dany on people wanting them for themselves. We cannot ascribe any more motivation to Quaithe as wanting to protect Dany's dragons from ending up in any hands other than Targ dragonlords. We can hypothesise reasonably that Quaithe may have a personal history and background to motivate her for wishing that Dany keeps the dragons as a type of restitution to the theft Quaithe's ancestor may have done. But I would not dare to go farther than that.

Yes true but i wanted to go a bit further than that. But if you said the line people come to see the wonders, Elissa Farman knows how people react with dragon, because she and Rhaeny went from castle to castle and all wanted the same thing and that were the dragons, nobody else moved so much from castle to castle because of that. About limiting the magis: Hatching egss as a youngster and glass candles is allready in ASOIAF so is not really a very new magic thing. The timing from Quaithi for contact we dont know much only that it came after Dany became a woman. The reasoning that Quathi has as like she have been between dragons before and how people react and maybe try to help Dany, but for all we know she can do it from an more evil plan.

I am going to read the essay sound great. GRRM does alot with describing sickness and their symptomes.

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, Seaserpent said:

The timing from Quaithi for contact we dont know much only that it came after Dany became a woman.

We do know when Quaithe first contacted Dany, because Dany has her own POV, and she meets Qaithe as one of the 3 envoys sent back to Vaes Tolorro along with her Dothraki rider. This is after she has hatched the 3 dragons.

[Seaserpent]

Just now, sweetsunray said:

We do know when Quaithe first contacted Dany, because Dany has her own POV, and she meets Qaithe as one of the 3 envoys sent back to Vaes Tolorro along with her Dothraki rider. This is after she has hatched the 3 dragons.

Yes that offcourse we know, my english is not that good. I am saying here that the reason of this timing we don't know. Maybe because if there is a plan it needed to be at that particular moment. Nice essay btw, my only question is how fit bloodraven in this, because he looks also albino but is walking in daylight?

[sweetsunray]

10 minutes ago, Seaserpent said:

Yes that offcourse we know, my english is not that good. I am saying here that the reason of this timing we don't know. Maybe because if there is a plan it needed to be at that particular moment. Nice essay btw, my only question is how fit bloodraven in this, because he looks also albino but is walking in daylight?

People with absolute albinism are not allergic to daylight. Their skin just does not make the necessary tan to protect the skin against invisible UV-light, which increases the risk of developing skin cancer. So, these people do not need to shun daylight, but preferable stay outside of the direct sun. Bloodraven has absolute albinism and wears cloaks a lot for this reason. Meanwhile, he doesn't have the RL issues with eyesight. His red eyes indicate he does not have melanin in his lens part of the eye, and this should physically create a blurred image, and yet he was one of the best bowmen, with the eyeisght comparable to an eagle.

Regardless albinism is not the same thing as allergy to daylight that causes blisters and lesions like 2nd degree burns on the skin as soon as it is exposed to daylight (not just sunlight).

The reason we can discern on the circumstances and Quaithe's own words.

 

Quote

 

The bald man with the jewels in his nose answered in the Valyrian of the Free Cities, "I am Xaro Xhoan Daxos of the Thirteen, a merchant prince of Qarth."

The woman in the lacquered wooden mask said in the Common Tongue of the Seven Kingdoms, "I am Quaithe of the Shadow. We come seeking dragons."

"Seek no more," Daenerys Targaryen told them. "You have found them." (aCoK, Dany I, at Vaes Tolorro)

 

Last of the three seekers to depart was Quaithe the shadowbinder. From her Dany received only a warning. "Beware," the woman in the red lacquer mask said.

"Of whom?"

"Of all. They shall come day and night to see the wonder that has been born again into the world, and when they see they shall lust. For dragons are fire made flesh, and fire is power."

 

 

That Quaithe is true in her meaning - only wanting to see the dragons - and does not want them for herself follows from any lack of her actions to try and acquire them, and instead warn Dany about others trying to get a dragon for themselves.

[John Suburbs]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

As to Littlefinger's involvement. While I mentioned a likely parallel to Littlefinger getting the tapestries from Cersei, it may be no more than a parallel: that is LF's actions parallel those of Varys and Illyrio. LF backs someone he hopes will give him access to power, and bribes houses to support him. This he does in the Vale. He gets tapestries from the Red Keep patrimonium and gifts them to someone he can please with it, to ensure their loyalty. Illyrio did the same thing with Dany. Illyrio's gifts to Dany is why Dany refuses to agree to the deal the Tattered Prince wants to make in aDwD with her (Selmy agrees to it later on, after she's gone). LF also meddled with politics in parallel to Varys in aGoT. So, I don't think the parallel between LF and Varys, and LF and Illyrio proves LF is involved in Illyrio getting the 3 eggs. Because usually a parallel requires other characters than the original, in order to be deemed a parallel. It does help construct a hypothesis how the eggs ended up from Braavos to Pentos. But imo it remains a parallel. 

Yes, my Littlefinger ==> Illyrio connection is very sketchy. Just something I keep on the back burner. But the eggs in Braavos finding their way to Illyrio certainly jibes with the idea. Certainly enough for me to be on the lookout for any other hints in WoW and DoS.

[Megorova]

Quaithe is Shiera Seastar. And there's multiple clues about her real identity in the books. And the most obvious out of them are: 1. description of Kings in Dany's dream, in AGOT, Dany IX - they had blue and green eyes, like Shiera; and 2. Quiathe's mask, that is made of starlight, which reveals, that she is whispering and smiling stars, that Dany saw in her fevered dream, when she was giving birth to Rhaego.

In Dunk & Egg novels it was said, that Shiera Seastar is dancing with demons - like Mirri Maz Duur was dancing with shadows - it's a shadowbinding; Shiera is bathing in blood - she's a user of blood magic, so she can stay young and beautiful, as long as she's making blood sacrifices; she is able to create shadow-glamour, and change looks of people - in The Mystery Knight novel she made Bloodraven to look like Maynard Plumm, same how Melisandre in ADWD, with usage of shadow-magic, made Mance Rayder to look like Rattleshirt. It is known from history of 7K, that Aegon V has sent someone to Asshai, to find out a method how to hatch dragon eggs, and also it is known, that Shiera Seastar was learning magic since early childhood, so it's highly likely, that the person, whom Aegon V has sent to Asshai, was Shiera.

Furthermore, the plot of ASOIAF is well-balanced, if Bloodraven is near one hinge of the world, The Wall, and his ex-lover and half-sister, Shiera, was near the other hinge - Asshai. He is still alive, so it's likely, that she is also still alive. Because out of the two of them, she was the one, who was using blood magic.

Quaithe just can't to be someone else, and not Shiera. Too many clues about Quaithe, point out, that she is Shiera.

And also Quaithe is the Three-Eyed Crow. Maester Marwyn and Mirri Maz Duur are her ex-disciples. Also it's likely, that Euron Greyjoy is also Shiera's ex-apprentice. First of all, because of his nickname - Euron Crow's Eye. But also because of him knowing and using magic, and shade-of-the-evening, and because of the scene from TWOW, where there's a shadow in a woman's form, when Euron is sitting on Iron Throne, her hands alive with pale fire (i.e. she's not actually there in flesh, she's holding glass candle in her hands (same as swords of pale fire, in hands of Kings from Dany's dream, is also a glass candle in hands of Shiera), and only her shadow is at King's Landing, while her body is somewhere else (same how Quaithe has visited Dany on board of Balerion ship in ASOS, and in ADWD in Meereen, and in Dothraki Sea, in Dany's last chapter).

[Megorova]

34 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

But the eggs in Braavos finding their way to Illyrio certainly jibes with the idea.

Maybe the Sealord has given those eggs to dwarfs:

ADWD, Tyrion VIII:

"It was Father's idea to do the tilts. He even trained the first pig, but by then he was too sick to ride her, so Oppo took his place. I always rode the dog. We performed for the Sealord of Braavos once, and he laughed so hard that afterward he gave each of us a … a grand gift.""

There was three of them - Hop-Bean (father), Oppo, and Penny. And each of them got a great gift. And, based on the way, how she said it, like she was going to say something else, but has remembered, that she was told not to tell to anyone about those dragon eggs, that they were given by Sealord of Braavos, and then sold them to Illyrio Mopatis (or, maybe, to Varys, because Varys also used to be a traveling mummer in Essos). If Aegon IV gave one dragon egg to Lord Butterwell, in exchange for sex with Butterwell's daughters, then why can't the Sealord of Braavos to give his dragon eggs to dwarfs, in exchange of them entertaining him?

Furthermore, in The Mystery Knight novel, Bloodraven has sent mummer-dwarfs to steal from Whitewalls castle Butterwell's dragon egg. So, possibly, it's a clue from GRRM, that three dragon eggs, owned by the Sealord, also became temporarely owned by dwarves. Because later those dwarves from Whitewalls, brought stolen egg back to Targaryens. Thus, it's likely, that with three dragon eggs, owned by the Sealord of Braavos, happened the same thing - eventually they ended up with their rightful owner - a Targaryen (Dany).

Maybe, this is also a clue:

1. Butterwell - 2. dwarfs - 3. Bloodraven - 4. Targaryen;

1. Sealord of Braavos - 2. dwarfs - 3. Illyrio or Varys - 4. Dany;

so Illyrio or Varys is a Targaryen "bastard", same as Bloodraven.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Quaithe is Shiera Seastar. And there's multiple clues about her real identity in the books. And the most obvious out of them are: 1. description of Kings in Dany's dream, in AGOT, Dany IX - they had blue and green eyes, like Shiera; and 2. Quiathe's mask, that is made of starlight, which reveals, that she is whispering and smiling stars, that Dany saw in her fevered dream, when she was giving birth to Rhaego.

In Dunk & Egg novels it was said, that Shiera Seastar is dancing with demons - like Mirri Maz Duur was dancing with shadows - it's a shadowbinding; Shiera is bathing in blood - she's a user of blood magic, so she can stay young and beautiful, as long as she's making blood sacrifices; she is able to create shadow-glamour, and change looks of people - in The Mystery Knight novel she made Bloodraven to look like Maynard Plumm, same how Melisandre in ADWD, with usage of shadow-magic, made Mance Rayder to look like Rattleshirt. It is known from history of 7K, that Aegon V has sent someone to Asshai, to find out a method how to hatch dragon eggs, and also it is known, that Shiera Seastar was learning magic since early childhood, so it's highly likely, that the person, whom Aegon V has sent to Asshai, was Shiera.

Furthermore, the plot of ASOIAF is well-balanced, if Bloodraven is near one hinge of the world, The Wall, and his ex-lover and half-sister, Shiera, was near the other hinge - Asshai. He is still alive, so it's likely, that she is also still alive. Because out of the two of them, she was the one, who was using blood magic.

Quaithe just can't to be someone else, and not Shiera. Too many clues about Quaithe, point out, that she is Shiera.

And also Quaithe is the Three-Eyed Crow. Maester Marwyn and Mirri Maz Duur are her ex-disciples. Also it's likely, that Euron Greyjoy is also Shiera's ex-apprentice. First of all, because of his nickname - Euron Crow's Eye. But also because of him knowing and using magic, and shade-of-the-evening, and because of the scene from TWOW, where there's a shadow in a woman's form, when Euron is sitting on Iron Throne, her hands alive with pale fire (i.e. she's not actually there in flesh, she's holding glass candle in her hands (same as swords of pale fire, in hands of Kings from Dany's dream, is also a glass candle in hands of Shiera), and only her shadow is at King's Landing, while her body is somewhere else (same how Quaithe has visited Dany on board of Balerion ship in ASOS, and in ADWD in Meereen, and in Dothraki Sea, in Dany's last chapter).

Correction: One of the popular speculations about Quaithe's identity so far has been that she is Shiera Seastar. And there are indeed good arguments for it. But it is as of yet, unconfirmed.

I have never read Maynard Plumm, nor Bloodraven confirm that it was Shiera Seastar who helped him with being glamoured. In fact, the glamouring itself is unconfirmed, though heavily hinted at, and therefore an acceptable theory.

Plenty of characters are said to have blue or green eyes. So, I don't see how the HotU vision is a persuasive argument that Quaithe = Shiera.

If Quaithe is not Shiera, then as a consequence she is someone else. So, indeed, she CAN be someone else.

The Three-Eyed Crow is said to be Bloodraven. I've never seen anyone in-world make that claim for Quaithe, nor Shiera. Nor is it stated that Marwyn and Mirri were disciples of Quaithe. They may have studied alongside of her, or learned from her, but that does not make them disciples. And if the 3E-C isn't Quaithe to begin with, then you have no link for Euron to her.

I'm all for speculation, hypothesis, but I prefer it if they are worded like that, rather than as if this all has been confirmed already.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, my Littlefinger ==> Illyrio connection is very sketchy. Just something I keep on the back burner. But the eggs in Braavos finding their way to Illyrio certainly jibes with the idea. Certainly enough for me to be on the lookout for any other hints in WoW and DoS.

Well, we know from Illyrio that Varys and him were always good at locating items. They don't need Littlefinger for it. Not that I discount LF's connection to Braavos, or that there still might be something up with that.

[Seaserpent]

11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, we know from Illyrio that Varys and him were always good at locating items. They don't need Littlefinger for it. Not that I discount LF's connection to Braavos, or that there still might be something up with that.

There is not really proof that LF has a connection with the sealord or facelessmen. The only thing i can discover is his connection to braavos trough his ancestors and their titan sigil. But the rise of LF to power has just happen because of his fathers friendship with Hoster Tully, his connection to Lysa and his smart brain.  

[Maia]

I, too, think that from all the discussed possibilities of secret Westerosi identities for her so far,  it is most likely that Quaithe is Shiera. There is already the pre-existing magic connection for her - as well as a hint that her mother Serenei may have known how to prolongue her life with magic, and the reason for her to speak the Common Tongue of Westeros so perfectly, not to mention to have special interest in Dany without the desire to posess her dragons. Ashara Dayne, the second most likely option, IMHO, had no documented tie to magic or scholarship.

There is also the fact that Shiera kinda vanished from the proceedings in WoIaF, her fate left vague, and it would be very disappointing if, despite her very intriguing background, she turned out to be yet another woman in historical ASoIaF canon who was unceremoniously shuffled off the stage under some half-baked pretext and/or was only good enough for "fridging" to give Bloodraven vengeful motivations. Or to provide Melisandre with a historically significant mother, which is really unnecessary, IMHO.

OTOH - if Elissa or some of her crew made it to Asshai after circumnavigating the world west - to-east, isn't it likely that they would have left some records or at least oral reports of their feat? Quaithe could have known about Elissa's achievements and fate and even allude to them without being her.

Finally - the masks that Asshai like to wear. They seem to be a feature of some magical traditions, as Morna the wildling witch also wears one without having any sickness or odd appearance, since she removes it on occasion without evoking any particular reactions from the on-lookers.

Bloodraven's albinism may impede him less than iRL because of his Targaryen blood which seems to provide protection from sun-burn, if Egg is any guide. As for his too-good vision - dunno.

[Megorova]

19 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

If Quaithe had meddled with the Sealord who sheltered Dany, then you have to explain why Quaithe didn't contact Dany in aGot and helped her with instructions to hatch the dragons, nor why Quaithe didn't just use the glass cando to contact Dany from a distance, while Dany was in the red waste or in Vaes Tolorro.

Quaithe did contacted Dany in AGOT, and she did used glass candle to do that, and she not only instructed Dany, how to hatch dragon eggs, but also saved Dany's life, and life of her baby, Rhaego.

Stars in the daylight sky is Quaithe in her mask. Then Quaithe removed her mask, and stars were gone, and instead of them Dany saw wings and fire, because she saw, that Quaithe has Valyrian features

Quote

She saw sunlight on the Dothraki sea, the living plain, rich with the smells of earth and death. Wind stirred the grasses, and they rippled like water. Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. "Home," she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame.

Ghost kings is Shiera, swords of pale fire is a glass candle. Opal, amethyst, tourmaline and jade are blue and green stones, like mismatched eyes of Shiera. Those ghosts were crying as one, because it was ONE person. And her crying "faster, faster" is actually "push, push" - she was assisting Mirri Maz Duur, when Dany was giving birth to Rhaego. By the way, Maester Marwyn was also there in Drogo's tent (or rather his "apparition"/shadow was there). Yes, he was  

Quote

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.

After the baby was born, Shiera has stayed with Dany for many hours, and told her how to hatch dragon eggs.

Quote

After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

She woke to the taste of ashes.

Furthermore, Mirri Maz Duur, Shiera's ex-disciple, has intentionally stayed behind in Dothraki camp, even though she knew, that she will be killed, because that's what she wanted - she has sacrificed her own life, to help Dany to hatch dragon eggs.

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I'm all for speculation, hypothesis, but I prefer it if they are worded like that, rather than as if this all has been confirmed already.

What I wrote above, and in my previous post about Quaithe, is a theory/speculation, but it is based on elements and clues in the text of ASOIAF, that can't be ignored or dismissed as a mere coincidences or a red herrings.

Quaithe IS Shiera Seastar, and that is plain as day. When it will be revealed to readers in plain text, all they will have to do, is to go back to AGOT Dany IX, and to re-read that chapter, this time knowing, that Quaithe, who is Shiera Seastar, was there with Dany, and was assisting her with childbirth. When it will be confirmed in plain text, who Quaithe is, then, when readers will be re-reading that chapter, they will finally notice all those clues and hints about her, that were there all along. The revelation, that Quaithe is Shiera Seastar and the Three-Eyed Crow, won't be out of the blue. Because GRRM has already given lots of clues, starting from AGOT, about who is who and what will happen later. Though, that's only my personal opinion 

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, Seaserpent said:

There is not really proof that LF has a connection with the sealord or facelessmen. The only thing i can discover is his connection to braavos trough his ancestors and their titan sigil. But the rise of LF to power has just happen because of his fathers friendship with Hoster Tully, his connection to Lysa and his smart brain.  

Agreed that there is little to no evidence of LF having powerful connections in Braavos, let alone FM. And George wrote him pretty much as a self-made man. But there are few tidbits about him that are intruiging about him imo. For example, in aCoK, he wears a plum vest matched with gold. Tyrion makes a note of it thrice, and LF even defensively asks Tyrion whether clothes make a sigil. Plum and gold are the colors of the Plumms. No idea yet why he chooses this color in particular. BTW this is not a Braavos color. It's a different hue than Braavos' purple. He still has Braavos connections though, mostly sailors acting like informants to him. He's getting as good as Varys.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Maia said:

I, too, think that from all the discussed possibilities of secret Westerosi identities for her so far,  it is most likely that Quaithe is Shiera. There is already the pre-existing magic connection for her - as well as a hint that her mother Serenei may have known how to prolongue her life with magic, and the reason for her to speak the Common Tongue of Westeros so perfectly, not to mention to have special interest in Dany without the desire to posess her dragons. Ashara Dayne, the second most likely option, IMHO, had no documented tie to magic or scholarship.

There is also the fact that Shiera kinda vanished from the proceedings in WoIaF, her fate left vague, and it would be very disappointing if, despite her very intriguing background, she turned out to be yet another woman in historical ASoIaF canon who was unceremoniously shuffled off the stage under some half-baked pretext and/or was only good enough for "fridging" to give Bloodraven vengeful motivations. Or to provide Melisandre with a historically significant mother, which is really unnecessary, IMHO.

OTOH - if Elissa or some of her crew made it to Asshai after circumnavigating the world west - to-east, isn't it likely that they would have left some records or at least oral reports of their feat? Quaithe could have known about Elissa's achievements and fate and even allude to them without being her.

Finally - the masks that Asshai like to wear. They seem to be a feature of some magical traditions, as Morna the wildling witch also wears one without having any sickness or odd appearance, since she removes it on occasion without evoking any particular reactions from the on-lookers.

Bloodraven's albinism may impede him less than iRL because of his Targaryen blood which seems to provide protection from sun-burn, if Egg is any guide. As for his too-good vision - dunno.

If Shiera lives, then I agree that she is most likely Quaithe.

Ashara Dayne being someone imho is but wishful thinking by readers. The books actually relate her fate. She's not just someone who journeyed, then disappered or something.

It is true that Morna wears a mask, but then as you say, "she removes it", Quaithe does not, not even when communicating via glass candle.

Bloodraven has absolute albinism. There are many variations of albinism, including one where people's skin can tan normally, explaining Egg if albinism is responsible for the Valyrian features. As for BR's too-good-vision: it's fantasy albinism, not real-world albinism. 

[Megorova]

38 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And George wrote him pretty much as a self-made man. But there are few tidbits about him that are intruiging about him imo. For example, in aCoK, he wears a plum vest matched with gold. Tyrion makes a note of it thrice, and LF even defensively asks Tyrion whether clothes make a sigil. Plum and gold are the colors of the Plumms. No idea yet why he chooses this color in particular. BTW this is not a Braavos color. It's a different hue than Braavos' purple. He still has Braavos connections though

Another theory:

Littlefinger is not a self-made man, he's a parasite and a traitor. He used to be one of Varys' little birds, that's why his personal sigil is a mockingbird - it's a symbol of his victory over Varys, he used him and then ditched him, to play his own Game of Thrones. He's using Varys' original plan, according to which, Varys was intending to put fAegon on Iron Throne. LF has stolen elements of that plan, altered some of it, and now he's planning to either make himself fAegon's Hand of the Kings, or to marry Sansa to fAegon, and then make her to poison her husband, and later thru marriage with dowager-Queen Sansa, to become King of 7K. He also has a bit of Targaryen blood, thus he has a claim over Iron Throne.

The Bastard of Harrenhal, that in 193 or 192 AC was defeated in the melee at King's Landing by ser Arlan of Pennytree, was secret bastard-son of Jeyne Lothston and Aegon IV. In span of First Blackfyre Rebellion he was knighted, and either thru knighthood or thru marriage took for himself a lastname Whent. He was grandfather of Lady Shella Whent, and first Lord Whent of Harrenhal. Littlefinger's great grandfather, who was a sellsword from Braavos, was bastard-son of this Lord Whent. And the mother, probably, was Bellenora Otherys, second Black Pearl of Braavos, or her sister, Narha Otherys. This two girls were half-sisters of the Bastard of Harrenhal/First Lord Whent of Harrenhal. And now LF is Lord of Harrenhal, because that castle belonged to his ancestors - Stokeworths, Lothstons and Whents (Falena Stokeworth was Jeyne Lothston's mother, and thus was grandmother of the Bastard/Whent). Also Catelyn Tully, who's mother was Minisa Whent, is LF's third cousin. So Sansa, Bran, Arya, Rickon, Edmure Tully and his little son (or Littlefinger, if the baby will be born dead), and Robert Arryn, are all carriers of Targaryen genes. Maybe, they are Rhaegar's "seven rubies".

27 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Ashara Dayne being someone imho is but wishful thinking by readers.

Ashara Dayne is wife of Howland Reed, Jyana Reed. How about this?

[sweetsunray]

11 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Quaithe did contacted Dany in AGOT, and she did used glass candle to do that, and she not only instructed Dany, how to hatch dragon eggs, but also saved Dany's life, and life of her baby, Rhaego. 

Quote?

 

11 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Stars in the daylight sky is Quaithe in her mask. Then Quaithe removed her mask, and stars were gone, and instead of them Dany saw wings and fire, because she saw, that Quaithe has Valyrian features

Quote

11 minutes ago, Megorova said:

 

Ghost kings is Shiera, swords of pale fire is a glass candle. Opal, amethyst, tourmaline and jade are blue and green stones, like mismatched eyes of Shiera. Those ghosts were crying as one, because it was ONE person. And her crying "faster, faster" is actually "push, push" - she was assisting Mirri Maz Duur, when Dany was giving birth to Rhaego. By the way, Maester Marwyn was also there in Drogo's tent (or rather his "apparition"/shadow was there). Yes, he was  

It is your BELIEF that swords of pale fire is a glass candle. Swords of pale fire may just be swords of pale fire, you know like Dawn.

People have associated these colors of stones with the emperors of the Empire of the Dawn (hmmm, Dawn again). To your assertion about these stones, "like mismatched eyes of Shiera", I say that I doubt that Shiera has 6 eyes.

Megorova, you can say "is" and "yes he was" as much as you want, it doesn't make it so. It is merely your interpretation of the vision that Dany has while giving birth to Rhaego.

11 minutes ago, Megorova said:

After the baby was born, Shiera has stayed with Dany for many hours, and told her how to hatch dragon eggs.

Furthermore, Mirri Maz Duur, Shiera's ex-disciple, has intentionally stayed behind in Dothraki camp, even though she knew, that she will be killed, because that's what she wanted - she has sacrificed her own life, to help Dany to hatch dragon eggs.

What I wrote above, and in my previous post about Quaithe, is a theory/speculation, but it is based on elements and clues in the text of ASOIAF, that can't be ignored or dismissed as a mere coincidences or a red herrings.

Quaithe IS Shiera Seastar, and that is plain as day. When it will be revealed to readers in plain text, all they will have to do, is to go back to AGOT Dany IX, and to re-read that chapter, this time knowing, that Quaithe, who is Shiera Seastar, was there with Dany, and was assisting her with childbirth. When it will be confirmed in plain text, who Quaithe is, then, when readers will be re-reading that chapter, they will finally notice all those clues and hints about her, that were there all along. The revelation, that Quaithe is Shiera Seastar and the Three-Eyed Crow, won't be out of the blue. Because GRRM has already given lots of clues, starting from AGOT, about who is who and what will happen later. Though, that's only my personal opinion 

I'm not ignoring or dismissing text, but your interpretation of them. The Ghost kings match the names of the Emperors of the Empire of Dawn, all carrying a sword that fits the description of Dawn.

Furthermore, the Targaryen are known to have visions and dreams, even long before Shiera was born. Dany is one such Targaryen. She doesn't need Shiera for that, nor has Shiera ever hatched eggs, and because dragons are after all magical creatures, it is even more likely the dragon eggs themselves instructed Dany how to hatch them.

[sweetsunray]

7 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Littlefinger is not a self-made man, he's a parasite and a traitor.

None of these exclude one another. A self-made-man can still be a parasite and/or traitor. LF is self-made by charming the right people, by putting his own corrupt men in place and by cooking the books.

[Megorova]

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Quote?

Read thru chapter AGOT, Dany IX, starting from beginning and ending with "She woke to the taste of ashes." <- what Dany saw in her fevered dream, that's first appearance of Quaithe/Shiera in the books. That dream is symbolic. To see, what was really happening, compared to what Dany saw in her delusional state, you need to read thru that "dream" with open mind, and then you'll notice a pattern. I'll give you a clue - there are two interchanging sequenses - what's happening outside of Dany's body, and inside of her (i.e. what was experienced by her unborn baby, while it was still inside her body), and everything is not what it seems to be - for example, at that time, when Dany was giving birth to her baby, she was inside Drogo's tent, not ontside in grasses of Dothraki Sea, and thus there was no stars above them, especially because the stars were in the daylight sky, while Dany was giving birth to Rhaego at night time; etc.

That dream, is not a dream, that's a memory+hallucinations (caused by milk of the poppy/opium) of what was happening with Dany, while she was giving birth to her child.

18 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

It is your BELIEF that swords of pale fire is a glass candle. Swords of pale fire may just be swords of pale fire, you know like Dawn.

I wouldn't have realised, what those swords are, if not Aeron's vision in TWOW:

Spoiler

The dreams were even worse the second time. He saw the longships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood­-red sea. He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire.

Add to this description of glass candle, seen by Sam. Pale fire.

24 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Megorova, you can say "is" and "yes he was" as much as you want, it doesn't make it so. It is merely your interpretation of the vision that Dany has while giving birth to Rhaego. 

So far I haven't read anybody else's theories, that were to me more convincing, than my own interpretation of those events ( I'm stubborn ). Eitherway to confirm it, or to disprove it, we will have to wait for the next book, or even the last book.

Though, some things could be confirmed, even before they will be directly revealed in the last book, because those things are tightly connected to other elements and events, that preceded them. For example, I think, that Rhaego is alive, because when Dany was giving birth to him, both of their lives were saved by interference of Shiera Seastar, that was there and helped them. If Shiera wasn't there, then the baby is dead. But if Rhaego is alive, then it's a confirmation of Shiera's presence there. I think, that Rhaego is in Vaes Dothak, and thus him and Dany will be reunited soon, in span of one or two first chapters of Dany's POV in the next book.

Will you agree, that I was right with my speculations about Shiera, if Dany will reunite with Rhaego in Vaes Dothrak? Because, Rhaego being alive, is a consequence of Shiera's/Quaithe's interference in Dany's life, it will be an evidence of her presence in AGOT Dany IX, no?

[Seaserpent]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Agreed that there is little to no evidence of LF having powerful connections in Braavos, let alone FM. And George wrote him pretty much as a self-made man. But there are few tidbits about him that are intruiging about him imo. For example, in aCoK, he wears a plum vest matched with gold. Tyrion makes a note of it thrice, and LF even defensively asks Tyrion whether clothes make a sigil. Plum and gold are the colors of the Plumms. No idea yet why he chooses this color in particular. BTW this is not a Braavos color. It's a different hue than Braavos' purple. He still has Braavos connections though, mostly sailors acting like informants to him. He's getting as good as Varys.

Yes his history to braavos doesn't make him still connected i mean, there is no proof of. I didn't notice but he is indeed wearing the sigil of house Plumm, but i cannot imaging it means something because its a first men house. That LF has his spies in Braavos is very logical, while he was a big man in Roberts small council. Where do you think his loyalties will be after Aegon and/or Dany are comming to Westeros?

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Read thru chapter AGOT, Dany IX, starting from beginning and ending with "She woke to the taste of ashes." <- what Dany saw in her fevered dream, that's first appearance of Quaithe/Shiera in the books. That dream is symbolic. To see, what was really happening, compared to what Dany saw in her delusional state, you need to read thru that "dream" with open mind, and then you'll notice a pattern. I'll give you a clue - there are two interchanging sequenses - what's happening outside of Dany's body, and inside of her (i.e. what was experienced by her unborn baby, while it was still inside her body), and everything is not what it seems to be - for example, at that time, when Dany was giving birth to her baby, she was inside Drogo's tent, not ontside in grasses of Dothraki Sea, and thus there was no stars above them, especially because the stars were in the daylight sky, while Dany was giving birth to Rhaego at night time; etc.

That dream, is not a dream, that's a memory+hallucinations (caused by milk of the poppy/opium) of what was happening with Dany, while she was giving birth to her child.

I know it's a mix of vision/hallucination/dream, and I know it's symbolical. That I do not disagree with. I do disagree with your interpretation for it. I don't see any evidence of Shiera in this vision and dream. I already gave a far more fitting association to the ghost kings with pale swords: long dead kings of the Empire of Dawn. Their names match the stones. That works symbolically far better than one person behind it, for Shiera doesn't have 6 eyes, nor is 6 men. It is speculated the Emperors of the Dawn are ancestors of the Valyrians, and thus part of Dany's blood... a type of ancestral memory so to speak, to which Dany has access to. Dany also wondered how Mirri knew what to do when she treated Drogo, and thought of "instinct", which is GRRM's own explanation of the hatching of the eggs: Dany did the right things by instinct.

As for the glass candles. George limits magic abilities. Each magical entity, or power or artefact has its handicap. Based on Quaithe's glass candle warning about who is coming for her dragons, the glass candles function like a drone and whatsapp: you can spy whatever is going on only in the present, and you can talk to someone else in the present. But you can't see in the future with it. Quaithe didn't see for example that Aegon would never reach Mereen, and instead decided to go for Westeros. She warned Dany about the mummer's dragon while Aegon was still on the riverboat, on his way to the GC, with the intent to marry Dany in Mereen.

It is a good notion that it was probably Quaithe who contacted Marwyn via the glass candle to help out in Mereen, especially now that Dany wasn't there anymore and two riderless dragons didn't have Dany and Drogon to herd them.

But Quaithe's glass candle cannot produce imagery of ancestors.

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I wouldn't have realised, what those swords are, if not Aeron's vision in TWOW:

  Hide contents

The dreams were even worse the second time. He saw the longships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood­-red sea. He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire.

Add to this description of glass candle, seen by Sam. Pale fire.

While the type of color fire may be similar, the shapes are not. First you have swords. Glass candles are another type of artefacts. And in Aeron's vision it are just hands. The color doesn't imo suggest it are all glass candles, but rather that they may have the same magical source behind it. With the swords we have magical swords, and with the Dawn connection, likely made of a meteorite (and thus star stuff). Glass candles may have been crafted out of similar source material - glassified meteorites, or powered by electricity. Lightning bolts (coming from the sky) can glassify matter they hit. If lightning bolts hit meteorites, you'd have the source material for glass candles. In the last vision you would have a woman who's not using a glass candle, but with the ability to manipulate electricity with her hands. 

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

So far I haven't read anybody else's theories, that were to me more convincing, than my own interpretation of those events ( I'm stubborn ). Eitherway to confirm it, or to disprove it, we will have to wait for the next book, or even the last book.

I don't have any issue with you believing whatever you want. I just take umbrage at you asserting a hypothesis with unsubstantiated claims. I find it disrespectful to the OP, who raised a question he has the right to ask and to investigate. This has little to do with being a native speaker. A significant portion of posters here aren't native speakers, including myself. What it comes down to is the difference in approach, even by someone whose mind is made up already. I prefer it when someone simply asks a question, then investigates the potential answers, takes others along in the investigation, and only then propose a "likely" conclusion, but still allowing others to make up their own minds. 

Personally, I don't believe George will ever reveal who Quaithe is aside from being Quaithe, even if she is someone else. My issue with Shiera = Quaithe are the eyes. Though we get no color description of Quaithe's eyes, they are visible to Dany and not once does she note that Quaithe has mismatched eyes... We have to be careful with conclusions based on absence of evidence, but since Dany makes observations about Quaithe's eyes, I think in this case we can conclude that Quaithe doesn't have mismatched eyes. Shiera does have mismatched eyes.

My issue with your assertions is how it jars with George's own words about the hatching of the dragons: she did it on instinct. I'm not a Dany fan, but I do give her her own agency.

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Though, some things could be confirmed, even before they will be directly revealed in the last book, because those things are tightly connected to other elements and events, that preceded them. For example, I think, that Rhaego is alive, because when Dany was giving birth to him, both of their lives were saved by interference of Shiera Seastar, that was there and helped them. If Shiera wasn't there, then the baby is dead. But if Rhaego is alive, then it's a confirmation of Shiera's presence there. I think, that Rhaego is in Vaes Dothak, and thus him and Dany will be reunited soon, in span of one or two first chapters of Dany's POV in the next book.

Will you agree, that I was right with my speculations about Shiera, if Dany will reunite with Rhaego in Vaes Dothrak? Because, Rhaego being alive, is a consequence of Shiera's/Quaithe's interference in Dany's life, it will be an evidence of her presence in AGOT Dany IX, no?

If Rhaego is alive, I still not see evidence that Shiera Seastar saved him.