Is Alyssa Farman or Alys Westhill Quaithe?

[sweetsunray]

36 minutes ago, Seaserpent said:

Yes his history to braavos doesn't make him still connected i mean, there is no proof of. I didn't notice but he is indeed wearing the sigil of house Plumm, but i cannot imaging it means something because its a first men house. That LF has his spies in Braavos is very logical, while he was a big man in Roberts small council. Where do you think his loyalties will be after Aegon and/or Dany are comming to Westeros?

I think LF will not survive even beyond the third or fourth Sansa chapter in tWoW. I theorized several years ago that 2 disasters are to occur during the Tourney at the Gates of the Moon: (1) an avalanche (2) an attack led by Timett (imo son of the kidnapped aunt of Harry) and his Burned Men. And I also think that Sansa has allies in the 3 knights LF just ended up hiring, with the handsome one a glamored Sandor. And so, LF's treason will soon be revealed imo, and his execution very near, but not before seeing chaos defeat him. So, he won't see Dany arrive in Westeros. He may want to forge an alliance with Aegon.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Quaithe did contacted Dany in AGOT, and she did used glass candle to do that, and she not only instructed Dany, how to hatch dragon eggs, but also saved Dany's life, and life of her baby, Rhaego.

How is this possible when the glass candles did not start burning until after the dragons hatched?

[Megorova]

16 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

But Quaithe's glass candle cannot produce imagery of ancestors.

But that's not imagery of ancestors. Dany actually saw Shiera. Not in a dream, not as hallucination, or a vision. Keep reading, and you'll get my point.

There was four stones, not six. What is common between amethyst, tourmaline, opal and jade, is that they are blue or green or bi-colored blue-green gems. Like this, opal: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Opal-53714.jpg

It's blue and green.

The most common colors of jade is either blue or green.

There are bi-colored blue-green tourmalines, like this one:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0600/3433/products/T_0055.JPG?v=1441093441

And some amethysts, gems of purple color, have blue color as their secondary hue.

In the Great Empire of the Dawn, there was 8 Emperors - Pearl, Jade, Tourmaline, Onyx, Topaz, Opal, Amethyst Empress, and Bloodstone Emperor.

So why out of those 8, in Dany's dream, she saw only 4?

It would be hard to fit into description of those Kings, eyes colored like pearls, but why onyx (black) and topaz (various colors, including green and blue, like there are tourmalines of various colors) are not there? -> Because those ghosts have NOTHING to do with Empire of the Dawn.

This

35 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

If Rhaego is alive, I still not see evidence that Shiera Seastar saved him.

and this

35 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I don't see any evidence of Shiera in this vision and dream.

Evidence/connection - Dany was visited by Quaithe, in her last chapter in ADWD, again thru usage of glass candle:

Quote

She dreamed. All her cares fell away from her, and all her pains as well, and she seemed to float upward into the sky. She was flying once again, spinning, laughing, dancing, as the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear. "To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

"Quaithe?" Dany called. "Where are you, Quaithe?"

Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight.

"Remember who you are, Daenerys," the stars whispered in a woman's voice. "The dragons know. Do you?"

Dany has recognized that voice, and first identified by that voice, that it was Quaithe, and then she also saw her, and saw her "starry" mask. And this is stars in AGOT Dany IX:

Quote

the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky

~

the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame

~

After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

Actual stars don't smile, and they don't talk, nor whisper.

In the entire ASOIAF series there are only two places in the books, with whispering stars - with Dany in AGOT and ADWD.

If in one of those scenes, Dany herself has called out to those stars - Quaithe? and then also saw her, then how can you still ignore, who were those whispering stars in AGOT Dany IX? -> If in one of those scenes, the whispering stars were Quaithe, then the whispering stars in another scene, are also Quaithe.

But those stars are not the only clues. In Dany's dream beside her was:

1. someone, whom she thought to be Drogo (because whoever that was, was touching her there, and before that, Drogo was the only one, with whom Dany had sex);

2. after the stars were gone, they were replaced by great wings and flame - Quaithe removed her starlight mask, and Dany saw that she has Valyrian features, like silver-gold hair of dragonseeds;

3. someone, that Dany saw as Viserys, because that someone looked like Valyrian, and was pinching Dany's nipples - nipple stimulation is a natural method to strengthen contractions, and to induce labor, it makes mother's body to produce hormone oxytocin.

4. someone, whom Dany saw as Jorah, this someone said, that Rhaegar was the last dragon, also this someone was transparent, and then vanished <- because he/Maester Marwyn was using glass candle to appear there;

5. someone, who had silver-gold and platinum-white hair, and eyes like opals, tourmalines, amethyst and jades, held swords of pale fire in their hands, and were crying to Dany as one. And this -

Quote

"Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.

"… wake the dragon …"

The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

"… the dragon …"

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.

she pushed for the last time, and her baby was born, she was experiencing those events thru her POV and thru Rhaego's POV, so when he was born, Dany from his eyes saw herself.

It's not just one detail, of whispering stars being there in Dany's dream, it's a combination of all those things, the order in which events were happening, and what was actual meaning, of what Dany saw/experienced.

Viserys was dead; Drogo was in catatonic state; Jorah was outside of that tent, treating his own wounds, or he was unconsciousness; the stars, that were with Dany, were smiling and whispering; she saw wings and flame; and whoever was with her, had silver-gold hair and blue/green eyes, and was urging her to "wake the dragon"/to give birth to her child.

What other interpretation of this sequence could there be?

Even if we will ignore number of those Kings, that there are only four of them, while in the Great Empire of the Dawn there was eight, how does they fit into the whole picture, of what was happening in that dream? Why Dany saw Viserys? Why Jorah's hands were transparent, and then he vanished? Why Dany saw great wings and flames? How does Emperors of the Dawn Empire fit into the rest of it? And how are they Dany's ancestors, if Bloodstone Emperor has cast down and slain his sister, Amethyst Empress, and then took a tiger-woman as his bride, but then also was defeated and killed, and their Empire has fallen appart? They had no children, their family became extinct, so Dany is not their descendant, and thus there's no reason for them to appear in her dream.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

How is this possible when the glass candles did not start burning until after the dragons hatched?

And who said, that they have to be "fully lit" to be used?

Prior the dragons hatched, glass candles also had a use, though their functions were limited. Furthermore, the fire magic was slowly returning into the world, even before the dragons hatched. The more they grew, the stronger became fire magic. But the souls of the dragons, have awakened, even before the eggs hatched -

First night, after Dany was given those eggs as a present, she saw a black dragon in her dream. After that, each day she was becoming stronger and stronger - the dragon gave her that strength. And the black egg became hot. Then, after winetrader was trying to poison Dany, and she took bronze and green egg into her bed, she has felt movement in her womb, and responding movement in the egg, as if though Rhaegel and Rhaego has felt each other. Then, after Rhaego's birth, when she took Viseryon's egg into her bed, she felt him twiching inside the egg.

Shortly after the dragons hatched, Quaithe has visited Dany on board of Balerion ship. Then her apparition was just a faint shadow, and she couldn't stay for long, nor make Dany to hear her, she was only able to influence Dany's dreams. Though, several months later, when she has appeared to Dany in Meereen, she looked so real/in flesh, that Dany at first hasn't even realised, that Quiathe isn't actually there, that what she sees, is just an apparition.

So the glass candles started working, after Dany's wedding, and that dream about Drogon, nearly 9 months before Rhaego's birth, but they were still very weak, and had a limited range/functions.

Though this is only an interpretation/theory of those events. I could be wrong.

[sweetsunray]

40 minutes ago, Megorova said:

There was four stones, not six. What is common between amethyst, tourmaline, opal and jade, is that they are blue or green or bi-colored blue-green gems. Like this, opal: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Opal-53714.jpg

Wrong. Amethyst is purple! It's not green or blue.

Here are several of the emperors of Dawn: Jade Emperor, his heir Tourmaline Emperor, his great-grandson Opal Emperor, and then the Amethyst Empress.

We get several figures described with silver, gold and platinum white hair, with purple, green and blue eyes, using stone names that match the names of legendary emperors, whose empire was destroyed by the Bloodstone Emperor, who usurped his sister's throne and made blood sacrifices.

This is not a description of Shiera's mismatched eyes at all, but all the variations of Valyrian features: silver, gold or platinum hair, and eyes ranging from purple to green or blue.

40 minutes ago, Megorova said:

In the Great Empire of the Dawn, there was 8 Emperors - Pearl, Jade, Tourmaline, Onyx, Topaz, Opal, Amethyst Empress, and Bloodstone Emperor.

So why out of those 8, in Dany's dream, she saw only 4?

It would be hard to fit into description of those Kings, eyes colored like pearls, but why onyx (black) and topaz (various colors, including green and blue, like there are tourmalines of various colors) are not there? -> Because those ghosts have NOTHING to do with Empire of the Dawn.

Because George hadn't invented Empire of the Dawn as a background story yet.

Your argument against the multiple ghosts is even more problematic applied to just 1 character: shiera is 4 ghosts all at once apparently, with four different eye colors and 3 different hair colors.

No glass candles, as rightly pointed out by @OtherFromAnotherMother they only burned again AFTER the dragons were born.

All the imagerybefore and after the ghost kings are either characters already dead, or related to past events, or memories of the past, such as the red door. Once she goes through the red door she encounters herself.

As for descendants from Emperors of the Dawn: the destruction of an empire nor the usurpation of a seat does not mean there are no descendants... see Starks for that.

All you have is the phraze "whispering of stars", which just as well may not connect to Quaithe, let alone Shiera. As stars are commonly regarded to be the heavens where kings and emperors go to in the afterlife in plenty of beliefs where kings and emperors were believed to be a god incarnated. Dany thinks of Drogo as her sun-and-stars. Maybe she hears his ghost whisper. It is after all not explicitly stated in aGoT that the stars whisper in a female voice, as it does in aDwD. Nor am I convinced that she's actually visited by Quaithe in her last chapter in aDwD. It may still be a construction of her own dreaming mind.

[Megorova]

43 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Wrong. Amethyst is purple! It's not green or blue.

But it has a secondary hue. Red or blue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amethyst#Hue_and_tone

Quote

Amethyst occurs in primary hues from a light pinkish violet to a deep purple. Amethyst may exhibit one or both secondary hues, red and blue.^[5]

Shiera had eyes of two colors, so GRRM has intentionally gave in description of those Kings gemstones with "dual" nature. Like bi-colored opals, or amethysts, that are stones with one primary color - purple, but have a blue color, as their secondary hue. Shiera had two silver necklaces, one with star sapphires, and one with emeralds, so it would have been too obvious, if GRRM just wrote - their eyes were color of sapphires and emeralds.

43 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Here are several of the emperors of Dawn: Jade Emperor, his heir Tourmaline Emperor, his great-grandson Opal Emperor, and then the Amethyst Empress.

We get several figures described with silver, gold and platinum white hair, with purple, green and blue eyes, using stone names that match the names of legendary emperors, whose empire was destroyed by the Bloodstone Emperor, who usurped his sister's throne and made blood sacrifices.

The Great Empire of the Dawn, and names of its Emperors matching with colors of Kings' eyes in Dany's dream, is a red herring. And a very good one.

43 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Because George hadn't invented Empire of the Dawn as a background story yet.

Exactly. Because red herrings don't need to have a vast background.

43 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Your argument against the multiple ghosts is even more problematic applied to just 1 character: shiera is 4 ghosts all at once apparently, with four different eye colors and 3 different hair colors.

First about hair colors - Shiera's hair was silver-gold. But that was, when she was young, and now she is 115 years old. Though even if she was using blood magic to stay young, it's likely, that she doesn't look like a young maiden, and some of her hair has already lost it's silver-gold color and became "grey", which in case of blond people/silver-golden-haired has partially turned platinum-white.

Silver-gold is one color, like blond. And platinum-white is also one color, not two. So Shiera's hair is "blond", and partially "grey" from old age.

Eyes:

three green - opal, tourmaline, jade;

three blue - opal, tourmaline, jade,

and one special stone, with a special ability - it has a secondary hue, blue.

So amethyst color in description of those Kings is a clue, that there are two colors, that the eyes are mismatched.

43 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

All the imagerybefore and after the ghost kings are either characters already dead, or related to past events, or memories of the past, such as the red door. Once she goes through the red door she encounters herself.

The red door is the way out of the womb, seen by unborn yet Rhaego, from inside of Dany's body. The long hall with stone arches is a birth canal. And flying out of that red door, means to be born.

43 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

As for descendants from Emperors of the Dawn: the destruction of an empire nor the usurpation of a seat does not mean there are no descendants... see Starks for that.

So he killed his sister, but for some reason has spared her children? Why?

And would people, that have defeated Bloodstone Emperor, left him or his possible children alive, after him eating human meat and getting married with an animal?

Maybe those Emperors have descendants, maybe they don't. But if those Kings are Shiera Seastar, who is Dany's relative, then it makes more sense. Because Dany and Shiera are DEFINITELY bloodrelated, while Dany's possible relation to Emperors of the Dawn Empire is farfetched and questionable. They are separated by thousands years. While between Dany and Shiera are only 100 years.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

56 minutes ago, Megorova said:

And who said, that they have to be "fully lit" to be used?

Prior the dragons hatched, glass candles also had a use, though their functions were limited. Furthermore, the fire magic was slowly returning into the world, even before the dragons hatched. The more they grew, the stronger became fire magic. But the souls of the dragons, have awakened, even before the eggs hatched -

First night, after Dany was given those eggs as a present, she saw a black dragon in her dream. After that, each day she was becoming stronger and stronger - the dragon gave her that strength. And the black egg became hot. Then, after winetrader was trying to poison Dany, and she took bronze and green egg into her bed, she has felt movement in her womb, and responding movement in the egg, as if though Rhaegel and Rhaego has felt each other. Then, after Rhaego's birth, when she took Viseryon's egg into her bed, she felt him twiching inside the egg.

Shortly after the dragons hatched, Quaithe has visited Dany on board of Balerion ship. Then her apparition was just a faint shadow, and she couldn't stay for long, nor make Dany to hear her, she was only able to influence Dany's dreams. Though, several months later, when she has appeared to Dany in Meereen, she looked so real/in flesh, that Dany at first hasn't even realised, that Quiathe isn't actually there, that what she sees, is just an apparition.

So the glass candles started working, after Dany's wedding, and that dream about Drogon, nearly 9 months before Rhaego's birth, but they were still very weak, and had a limited range/functions.

Though this is only an interpretation/theory of those events. I could be wrong.

I'll give you points for creativity, but Dany having 'dragon dreams' (as we know other Targs do) is a much better explanation than glass candle dream communication. You're idea that glass candles were functional before the dragons were hatched is not only unsupported by the text, but outright contradicted by it. 

[Megorova]

It's very unlikely, that Quaithe is Alyssa Farman. Though if Alyssa has actually managed to reach Asshai, then it's unlikely, that she just died shortly afterwards. There is still one important character in ASOIAF, that has roots in Asshai - Melisandre. And we still don't have her background story, besides her being called Melony and being lot seven, in what seems to be some slave auction.

Alyssa Farman could be Melisandre's mother or grandmother.

[sweetsunray]

9 minutes ago, Megorova said:

But it has a secondary hue. Red or blue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amethyst#Hue_and_tone

Shiera had eyes of two colors, so GRRM has intentionally gave in description of those Kings gemstones with "dual" nature. Like bi-colored opals, or amethysts, that are stones with one primary color - purple, but have a blue color, as their secondary hue. Shiera had two silver necklaces, one with star sapphires, and one with emeralds, so it would have been too obvious, if GRRM just wrote - their eyes were color of sapphires and emeralds.

Nonsense. If you want to compare purple eye color to stones then amethyst is a logical choice. It is illogical to use it for green or blue. You also misunderstand the meaning of "secondary hue". What it means is that the primary hue is still purple, but depending on the angle you might perceive blue or a reddish tone. I'm a painter since the age of 5, have done thesises on percecption of color as well as chemical composition, and have perfect hue sight.

This is completely normal for most eyes, especially eyes that are not 100% brown or amber. The hue of partially brown eyes, green, blue, red or purple shifts, because those eye colors are dependent on the melanin, but the same way we perceive the color of water: there is no melanin, but the size of transparent structures within the eye alter how light is diffracted and reflected towards onlookers. Alter the angle, and you see a shift, because the wavelength of reflected light is different too. The same mechanism that makes us perceive a sunset as red. This happens too with stones.

9 minutes ago, Megorova said:

The Great Empire of the Dawn, and names of its Emperors matching with colors of Kings' eyes in Dany's dream, is a red herring. And a very good one.

Exactly. Because red herrings don't need to have a vast background.

A red herring on something he wrote for the world book over a decade later. Without even knowing of these emperors you are still reading about kings long gone dead (ghosts) with Valyrian heirs (that vary) and related eye-colors (that vary).

9 minutes ago, Megorova said:

First about hair colors - Shiera's hair was silver-gold. But that was, when she was young, and now she is 115 years old. Though even if she was using blood magic to stay young, it's likely, that she doesn't look like a young maiden, and some of her hair has already lost it's silver-gold color and became "grey", which in case of blond people/silver-golden-haired has partially turned platinum-white. Silver-gold is one color, like blond. And platinum-white is also one color, not two. So Shiera's hair is "blond", and partially "grey" from old age.

Illogical, reaching explanation, and very unsatisfying... ignoring all the other characters in the sequence.

9 minutes ago, Megorova said:

The red door is the way out of the womb, seen by unborn yet Rhaego, from inside of Dany's body. The long hall with stone arches is a birth canal. And flying out of that red door, means to be born.

Sure, but it's still connected to imagery of her past, which you conveniently ignore.

9 minutes ago, Megorova said:

So he killed his sister, but for some reason has spared her children? Why?

Did I say that? Never heard of bastards, or him having his own children? And of course he could have believed to kill her children, while they were actually saved (see Starks)

9 minutes ago, Megorova said:

And would people, that have defeated Bloodstone Emperor, left him or his possible children alive, after him eating human meat and getting married with an animal?

A tiger woman is not necessarily an animal. Starks were defeated by their enemies. We still have 5 Stark children doing their stuff.

9 minutes ago, Megorova said:

 But if those Kings are Shiera Seastar, who is Dany's relative, then it makes more sense. Because Dany and Shiera are DEFINITELY bloodrelated, while Dany's possible relation to Emperors of the Dawn Empire is farfetched and questionable. They are separated by thousands years. While between Dany and Shiera are only 100 years.

No, it doesn't make sense to portray Shiera Seastar as 4 male kings with swords, with three different colors of hair and 3 different colors of eyes.

[sweetsunray]

13 minutes ago, Megorova said:

It's very unlikely, that Quaithe is Alyssa Farman. Though if Alyssa has actually managed to reach Asshai, then it's unlikely, that she just died shortly afterwards. There is still one important character in ASOIAF, that has roots in Asshai - Melisandre. And we still don't have her background story, besides her being called Melony and being lot seven, in what seems to be some slave auction.

Alyssa Farman could be Melisandre's mother or grandmother.

Makes more sense for Mel to be BR's daughter on Shiera, especially since she's not involved whatsoever with making sure that 3 dragons born from 3 stolen eggs remain in the hands of a Targaryen. It is ironic for Mel to think Bloodraven to be an agent of the enemy, while it's her own father.

It is nearly poetic that Quaithe would be a descendant from the woman who stole those 3 eggs, and ultimately saved them from destruction. If the 3 eggs hadn't been stolen, then they woudl either have hatched and then the dragons would have died in the civil war of the Dance, and if they hadn't hatched yet at Dragonstone, then Aegon would have blown up 10 dragon eggs at Summerhal instead of 7. It would be touching that Quaithe as a descendant of Alys would work to keep the dragons out of non-Targ hands as a restitution to what her ancestor did.

[Megorova]

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No, it doesn't make sense to portray Shiera Seastar as 4 male kings with swords, with three different colors of hair and 3 different colors of eyes.

Let's return to this discussion after TWOW's release.

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Makes more sense for Mel to be BR's daughter on Shiere, especially since she's not involved whatsoever with making sure that 3 dragons born from 3 stolen eggs remain in the hands of a Targaryen.

All known Blackwoods were dark-haired. Shiera's mother Serenei, and her father, Aegon IV, both had silver-gold/blond hair. So it's very unlikely, that both Shiera and Bloodraven were carriers of dominant R-allele, that in combination R+R made their child a redhead.

Melisandre being daughter of Shiera and Bloodraven is so out of the blue

What is you basis for this possibility?

22 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

You're idea that glass candles were functional before the dragons were hatched is not only unsupported by the text, but outright contradicted by it. 

We don't know the exact nature of glass candles, how they work. Maybe, some people were able to use glass candles, even before the dragons has hatched. If those people were dragonseeds, like Shiera, or were helped by a dragonseed to lit a candle, like Marwyn. Maybe, when there's no actual dragons, it can be activated with blood of a dragonseed.

Quote

"The night before an acolyte says his vows, he must stand a vigil in the vault. No lantern is permitted him, no torch, no lamp, no taper . . . only a candle of obsidian. He must spend the night in darkness, unless he can light that candle. Some will try. The foolish and the stubborn, those who have made a study of these so-called higher mysteries. Often they cut their fingers, for the ridges on the candles are said to be as sharp as razors. Then, with bloody hands, they must wait upon the dawn, brooding on their failure. Wiser men simply go to sleep, or spend their night in prayer, but every year there are always a few who must try."

If it's totally impossible, to lit a glass candle in the world without dragons, then why were they trying, and how come Maester Marwyn has so quickly learned how to use GC?

Maybe Shiera was using glass candle - those swords of pale fire in hands of ghost Kings. Though, maybe, Marwyn, was using some other method to "teleport" there, something out of shadow magic.

Or, maybe, Marwyn is also a dragonseed, a distant relative of Targaryens. Both Citadel and Hightower are in Oldtown. Garmund Hightower had six daughters with princess Rhaena Targaryen. Maybe, Marwyn is their descendant, and thus has a bit of dragonblood, and thus, possibly, was able to use glass candle, even before birth of Dany's dragons.

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, Megorova said:

All known Blackwoods were dark-haired. Shiera's mother Serenei, and her father, Aegon IV, both had silver-gold/blond hair. So it's very unlikely, that both Shiera and Bloodraven were carriers of dominant R-allele, that in combination R+R made their child a redhead.

Melisandre being daughter of Shiera and Bloodraven is so out of the blue

I consinder Valyrian features as recessive. The Blackwoods are carriers.

It's implied that Mel's features may be glamored, that would include the red hair.

Mel as daughter of Shiera and Bloodraven is not so out of the blue. It was speculated on since her vision of BR and Bran in aDwD, before the world book was published and anyone even knew of Shiera being BR's lover.

[HexMachina]

I feel like each post Megarova makes on this forum is less based on actual text and more based on fan fic than the last

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

We don't know the exact nature of glass candles, how they work. Maybe, some people were able to use glass candles, even before the dragons has hatched. If those people were dragonseeds, like Shiera, or were helped by a dragonseed to lit a candle, like Marwyn. Maybe, when there's no actual dragons, it can be activated with blood of a dragonseed.

Too many maybes for me. 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

If it's totally impossible, to lit a glass candle in the world without dragons, then why were they trying,

It's a lesson. 

Quote

"It is a lesson," Armen said, "the last lesson we must learn before we don our maester's chains. The glass candle is meant to represent truth and learning, rare and beautiful and fragile things. It is made in the shape of a candle to remind us that a maester must cast light wherever he serves, and it is sharp to remind us that knowledge can be dangerous. Wise men may grow arrogant in their wisdom, but a maester must always remain humble. The glass candle reminds us of that as well. Even after he has said his vow and donned his chain and gone forth to serve, a maester will think back on the darkness of his vigil and remember how nothing that he did could make the candle burn . . . for even with knowledge, some things are not possible."

But that is from the books, so you may not like that explanation. 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Maybe Shiera was using glass candle - those swords of pale fire in hands of ghost Kings. Though, maybe, Marwyn, was using some other method to "teleport" there, something out of shadow magic.

Or, maybe, Marwyn is also a dragonseed, a distant relative of Targaryens. Both Citadel and Hightower are in Oldtown. Garmund Hightower had six daughters with princess Rhaena Targaryen. Maybe, Marwyn is their descendant, and thus has a bit of dragonblood, and thus, possibly, was able to use glass candle, even before birth of Dany's dragons.

Too many maybes. I prefer George's story.

[Seaserpent]

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I think LF will not survive even beyond the third or fourth Sansa chapter in tWoW. I theorized several years ago that 2 disasters are to occur during the Tourney at the Gates of the Moon: (1) an avalanche (2) an attack led by Timett (imo son of the kidnapped aunt of Harry) and his Burned Men. And I also think that Sansa has allies in the 3 knights LF just ended up hiring, with the handsome one a glamored Sandor. And so, LF's treason will soon be revealed imo, and his execution very near, but not before seeing chaos defeat him. So, he won't see Dany arrive in Westeros. He may want to forge an alliance with Aegon.

An Avalanche would be amazing! Those other 2 i don't think, though Timett could be revealed later on in the story, but i don't think by an attack. LF will made it far into winter i think. As ruler of the Vale he is in possession of a lot of food that Westeros needs. The vale survived the was and is a very fertile region. So now he almost have ultimate power by taking control of the Supplier routes Through the Vale and the Riverlands. He looks a bit like a corrupt Roman by starving his people and than come to safe them with grain and food and try to get ultimate power. I think Sansa will play a big part in his downfall. It will be the change from Alayne tot Sansa. I also think Sansa and Sandor will end up together, but not with a glamoured one, but it could be possible as a mystery or faith-Knight. 

[sweetsunray]

40 minutes ago, Seaserpent said:

An Avalanche would be amazing! Those other 2 i don't think, though Timett could be revealed later on in the story, but i don't think by an attack. LF will made it far into winter i think. As ruler of the Vale he is in possession of a lot of food that Westeros needs. The vale survived the was and is a very fertile region. So now he almost have ultimate power by taking control of the Supplier routes Through the Vale and the Riverlands. He looks a bit like a corrupt Roman by starving his people and than come to safe them with grain and food and try to get ultimate power. I think Sansa will play a big part in his downfall. It will be the change from Alayne tot Sansa. I also think Sansa and Sandor will end up together, but not with a glamoured one, but it could be possible as a mystery or faith-Knight. 

Here's the essay i wrote several years ago: https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2015/11/16/the-trail-of-the-red-stallion-iii/

And @Blue-Eyed Wolf wrote her theory on shadrich, morgarth and byron here: https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2017/07/13/their-gallantry-is-yet-to-be-demonstrated-shadrich-morgarth-and-byron/

[Seaserpent]

11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Here's the essay i wrote several years ago: https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2015/11/16/the-trail-of-the-red-stallion-iii/

And @Blue-Eyed Wolf wrote her theory on shadrich, morgarth and byron here: https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2017/07/13/their-gallantry-is-yet-to-be-demonstrated-shadrich-morgarth-and-byron/

thanx for that

[John Suburbs]

On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 3:54 PM, Megorova said:

Maybe the Sealord has given those eggs to dwarfs:

ADWD, Tyrion VIII:

"It was Father's idea to do the tilts. He even trained the first pig, but by then he was too sick to ride her, so Oppo took his place. I always rode the dog. We performed for the Sealord of Braavos once, and he laughed so hard that afterward he gave each of us a … a grand gift.""

There was three of them - Hop-Bean (father), Oppo, and Penny. And each of them got a great gift. And, based on the way, how she said it, like she was going to say something else, but has remembered, that she was told not to tell to anyone about those dragon eggs, that they were given by Sealord of Braavos, and then sold them to Illyrio Mopatis (or, maybe, to Varys, because Varys also used to be a traveling mummer in Essos). If Aegon IV gave one dragon egg to Lord Butterwell, in exchange for sex with Butterwell's daughters, then why can't the Sealord of Braavos to give his dragon eggs to dwarfs, in exchange of them entertaining him?

Furthermore, in The Mystery Knight novel, Bloodraven has sent mummer-dwarfs to steal from Whitewalls castle Butterwell's dragon egg. So, possibly, it's a clue from GRRM, that three dragon eggs, owned by the Sealord, also became temporarely owned by dwarves. Because later those dwarves from Whitewalls, brought stolen egg back to Targaryens. Thus, it's likely, that with three dragon eggs, owned by the Sealord of Braavos, happened the same thing - eventually they ended up with their rightful owner - a Targaryen (Dany).

Maybe, this is also a clue:

1. Butterwell - 2. dwarfs - 3. Bloodraven - 4. Targaryen;

1. Sealord of Braavos - 2. dwarfs - 3. Illyrio or Varys - 4. Dany;

so Illyrio or Varys is a Targaryen "bastard", same as Bloodraven.

Wow, that must have been one helluva show to be worth a dragon's egg each. And what could they possibly have squandered the money on so that they still had to scratch out a living jousting on pigs and dogs for lords, ladies and other rich people?

[John Suburbs]

On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 4:44 PM, sweetsunray said:

Well, we know from Illyrio that Varys and him were always good at locating items. They don't need Littlefinger for it. Not that I discount LF's connection to Braavos, or that there still might be something up with that.

 

On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 4:10 AM, Seaserpent said:

There is not really proof that LF has a connection with the sealord or facelessmen. The only thing i can discover is his connection to braavos trough his ancestors and their titan sigil. But the rise of LF to power has just happen because of his fathers friendship with Hoster Tully, his connection to Lysa and his smart brain.  

Like I said, my connection between Littlefinger and Illyrio is sketchy, but here it is:

First, the convo between Illyrio and Varys that Arya overhears: Varys is telling Ill all he knows about the book and the attempt on Bran and the truth that Eddard will soon know -- basically everything that everyone of note has been doing behind the scenes. But when he brings up Littlefinger, he just blows it off with "the gods know what Littlefinger is up to", and Illyrio just accepts this without a word. Really Varys? Your job is to know everybody's secrets and yet you haven't made it a top priority to know what this man is up to? After all, he is only the man who is mucking around with the financial structure of the realm you hope to rule some day, and it's not like Littlefinger is solely responsible for your immediate problem: the fact that the great houses are going to war months, even years, before you planned. Varys, of course, is not the sharpest tool in the shed, particularly when it comes to Littlefinger, but Illyrio is the one financing this whole operation; he should immediately realize what a risk that their blindness in regards to LF represents. So my suspicion is that he doesn't need to know what LF is up to, he already knows.

Secondly, we have LF's performance as a duty collector in Gulltown and then KL. The only ways to increase incomes like that in such a short time is if he produces a dramatic uptick in trade or he starts squeezing ship captains and merchants for more money. The first options is highly unlikely. He is barely a landed lord himself, and there is no indication that he has the contacts or the ability to arrange such a flow of goods from the free cities or anywhere else, let alone spur the demand needed to justify this increase. The second option is even less likely. People don't like to be separated from their money, and the docks are notoriously dangerous places run by notoriously dangerous people. If LF is suddenly taking ten times the amount they are used to, LF would be a dead man -- at best, he certainly wouldn't have all of these friends in Gulltown and KL that he claims. His rep would not be that of an amiable gentleman who gets along with everyone but a tax gouger who is impoverishing the very people that the high and might depend upon for their wealth.

So that leaves us with a third option: that LF was being bankrolled at Gulltown and at the beginning in KL. And who might this benefactor be? Why, none other than the extremely wealthy merchant from across the sea who is actively trying to destabilize the realm that he hopes to conquer.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Wow, that must have been one helluva show to be worth a dragon's egg each. And what could they possibly have squandered the money on so that they still had to scratch out a living jousting on pigs and dogs for lords, ladies and other rich people?

Who said, that they got lots of money from selling those eggs? Maybe, they were tricked or treatened to give them away for free, to Varys or Illyrio. Or, maybe, Varys and Hop-Bean knew each other, so Hop-Bean gave those eggs to Varys for free, because they were old friends, or something like that.

Don't you think, that it was extremely dangerous, for someone like those dwarfs, to have in their possesion dragon eggs? Other people could've killed them, to take away, what they had. It's not like those dwarfs would have been able to protect themselves. 

Also, maybe, there was a reason, why that Sealord gave away dragon eggs to dwarfs. Maybe, he wanted to get rid of them. It is known, that the Sealord of Braavos was intending to marry Viserys to Arianne Martell. But that plan has failed, because of Willem Darry's death. Based on what Illyrio has said to Tyrion about Dany, about years of planning, and Dany with Viserys living in Braavos in a house with red door (which marked them for Varys'/Illyrio's agents (who is a Blackfyre), as Red dragons), I think, that the one, who was sponsoring Darry, was Illyrio. But Willem started to make his own plans concerning his Targaryen proteges, thus Illyrio killed him, to prevent him from using Viserys. Because Illyrio and Varys had their own plans concerning Dany and her brother. So Willem Darry has died, from what looked like an illness, but actually wasn't.

Besides Willem, the other conspirator, that plotted behind Varys' and Illyrio's backs, was the Sealord of Braavos. So after Willem's death, he knew, that next they will deal with him. He was aware, that they knew, that he had three dragon eggs. Because they themselves came to him, and asked him to sell those eggs to them. Thru their interest in those eggs, he found out, why do they need them - to try and use Targaryen kids to hatch them. So that's how he has found out, that in his own city, there are living in secret two Targaryen refugees from Westeros. So he found their mansion, and approached Willem Darry with his proposal to help them. He made negotiations with Martells about arranged marriage between Viserys and Arianne. Obviously, afterwards he was expecting to make lots of money from this deal. Maybe, he was even planning, that he will become the King's Hand in 7K, after Viserys will become King. So, when those plans has failed, and his partner, Willem, was dead, the Sealord didn't wanted to do, what Illyrio/Varys were demanding from him - to give or to sell to them those dragon eggs. So he gave those eggs to traveling mummer dwarfs, out of spite, not to let Illyrio/Varys to get their hands on them.

Maybe, when those dwarfs were performing for him, he was also sick, and he had the same "illness" as Willem Darry, so he was aware, that he was dying. He was in a bad mood, and those dwarfs made him laught, despite his depression, caused by his state. So he was thankfull to them, for making him to forget for a moment, about his imminent death. And he didn't wanted Varys/Illyrio to have their way after his death. Thus, for those two reasons, he gave those eggs to dwarfs. Maybe, he thought, that it will be hard for Varys/Illyrio to find them, because those dwarfs were traveling mummers.

So it's not necessary for that show to be super great. The Sealord has just used it, as a pretence, for getting those eggs out of his house, and out of Varys' spider-web. But eventually Varys or Illyrio still has managed to find them, and then gave them to Dany.

Isn't this a likely option, of what could have happened? That scene from ADWD, what Penny has told about the Sealord of Braavos to Tyrion, could be a clue, that that Sealord had in his possesion the same three dragon eggs, that previously belonged to Targaryens. Then he gave them to Hop-Bean, Oppo, and Penny, who were traveling mummers. And then, eventually somehow those eggs became Illyrio's possession. And there is a connection between Illyrio and traveling mummers, and that's Varys. So isn't it likely, that the three dragon eggs, that Illyrio gave to Dany, were the same eggs, that Elissa Farman has stolen from Targaryens, then sold them to the Sealord of Braavos, who's successor gave them to mummer-dwarfs, etc., until they were hatched by Dany?

Couldn't this scenario be the reason, why GRRM has wrote in F&B about Elissa Farman, stealing three dragon eggs from Targaryens, and selling them to the Sealord of Braavos?